Donna, thank you SO much, sweetie, for sticking it out with USAA and MINIUSA/BMWNA, to determine the actual cause of Scooter's catastrophic fire and demise.

For those of you not involved with the new MINI culture since its inception in 2002, Donna and Mike are true pioneers in helping to create our fun, fantastic, and very generous MINI world.

Their Scooter was one of the, if not THE, first non-demo MCS's delivered to the U.S. in 2002. They have always been informative, kind, and friendly with all things MINI-related.

They could have very easily just taken USAA's generous financial offer, but they chose to investigate the incident fully, to ensure that the rest of us are safe.

Thanks for everything, Donna/Mike! You are truly the BEST!


Clover

 

Actually, there were no aftermarket mods that they could have possibly put the blame on. That was one of the first questions we were asked....so that was a dead issue from the start of this whole thing.:smile:

Donna

 

You're making me blush..........thank you for the very kind words....golly gee.......muaaaa:smile:

Donna

 

Go for it....and you can send our personal information too. My next week's adventure was to start trying to get in touch with the owner who's car was reported on the above mentioned show. I'd like to see where they stand at this point as far as MINI goes.

Donna

 

USAA can be very helpful, thumbs up for USAA

 

Donna/Mike,

I have been following your thread closely. Thanks for your contribution to NAM. I always put alot of weight on those that have many posts here at NAM , and also look forward to your posts being that you are from Oceanside, Ca. I too am from Oceanside and a member here at NAM . I live in the Mission Ave.- Fireside area and drive an 04 EB/W with tinted windows and an M7 extreme bonnet scoop, wave if you see me some time.

 

Would this by chance be fuse F6 in the fuse box in the engine compartment? If so, I have an April 03 build which has a 30 amp fuse. I will be replacing it tomorrow.

Sorry, I wasn't sure if to start a thread on the subject or not.

Thanks again, Donna/Mike.

 

Donna/Mike,

I am very sorry for your loss and can only imagine what it has been like to deal with insurance and the manufacturer over this incident. I am a master electrician, a member of my county electrical board, and a member of the state electrical board. I also teach preparatory classes for those who are trying for their master electrician license. I can tell you from experience that insurance companies will almost always blame any fire on the electrical system. It is very hard to prove otherwise. I was involved in a case where the insurance company "proved" that a fire was caused by a faulty electric baseboard heater, even though it was summer and the heat was not turned on. It was later found that the owner had installed panelling using ten penny nails that had pierced the electrical wiring and the fire originated in another area of the house from what had been determined by the insurance investigator. While it is very possible that the ABS was at fault, I would not put too much credit in the findings of the insurance investigator. It is his job to find someone, anyone, to blame for the fire so that the insurance company can sue them to recover their loss if they choose to do so. You are very fortunate that you did no modifications to the car, otherwise you would be trying to prove that those modifications did not cause the fire. Just a word of warning to those who are going to change the fuse for their ABS: in the event of a short circuit (or ground fault), the time that it takes a 30-amp fuse versus a 20-amp fuse to "blow" is infintesimal. During a short circuit (or ground fault) that fuse will be subject to hundreds of amps for the time it takes to blow and either amp rating will blow almost instantaneously. In the event that the ABS unit overloads the 20-amp fuse will blow more quickly, however we do not know why the fuse was changed in later models. Was the ABS unit changed to a unit that draws less amperage? If so the 20-amp fuse is appropriate. If the unit was not changed and the 30-amp fuse is appropriate, by changing to a 20-amp you may cause the fuse to blow while the unit is working properly, thus losing your ABS when you need it most. It is much more likely that a fire is caused by a short circuit or ground fault than by overloading. Faults usually produce sparks, overloading causes the wiring to get warmer than it should. A 30-amp fuse should open before an overload damages the wiring to the point that a fire would result. The worst case is that the wiring would heat up until the insulation melts, then the bare wire would come into contact with some metal on the car. At this point we would have a ground fault sending high amperage through the fuse. The fuse would then blow regardless of whether it was rated 20 or 30 amps. Fuses should not be changed to a lower value, and especially not to a higher value, without knowing the characteristics of the circuit they are protecting.
I am not saying that MINI is without blame in this case, I am just pointing out that it is in the best interest of the insurance company to place the blame on someone, and preferably someone with "deep pockets". I also don't want to see people blindly changing fuses that may do no more to protect them against fire and could possibly cause the ABS to fail when it is working as designed.

 

As always, thanks for the information - maybe some good will come from this horrible incident. Does anyone have any info as to when MINI made the change, though. I would be uncomfortable in just changing a fuse as there may have been other modifications made to the system in later models. Let the dealer sort it out. A good one won't ignore findings such as these.

 

Haskindmh, Thanks for the technical electrical info for fuses and I would tend to agree about the insurance co. needing someone to blame. I was rather impressed by their insurance co.'s report that even specifically stated that MINI needs to look at it. Hopefully, this will be one of those rare instances where folks are actually concerned about safety rather than finding someone to blame :smile:

 

Donna,

Just to further clarify: Did USAA hire an outside investigator to determine the cause of the fire or use an in-house investigator?

Friends, it is my understanding of the situation that the investigation was extremely detailed and that the investigator(s) took his time. It was not handled by USAA in a "routine" manner whatsoever.


Clover

 

No disrespect for the seriousness and importance of this thread, but I find it fascinating (as are many of the others)--MINI Forensics 1A. I really appreciate haskindmh's post because I had been prepared to question BMW/MINI's actions based only on the insurance investigator's report--reminding me, once again, to not jump to conclusions. And I am grateful to learn about the history of Donna/Mike's MINI because that makes it especially poignant.

Being an avid mystery reader I had been conjuring up all sorts of vermin to lurk behind the coiffed hedgerows of sleepy Del Mar and worrying about the hapless parents who stroll there blissfully. I am relieved to learn that those vermin lurk only in my pea brain. Instead this is beginning to resemble another established genre of mystery, the technical pot boiler, but hopefully never to become a courtroom melodrama.

I really have learned so much from NAM. Idn't da Innernet wunnerful?

 

I can understand how break fluid, leaking into the electrical components of a sensor in the breaking system might cause a fire. It probably creates a conductive environment with enought resistance so that 30amps of current generates enought heat to eventually ignite the fluid. 20amps of current should generate less heat, but what I don't understand is why this circuit has to be 'hot' when the ignition is turned off??

Here's a suggestion for someone who knows more about these cars than myself. After we've positively identified the fuse circuit for this sensor, can we put a simple switch in line with it? Would that cause any problems? Then, if we park our cars indoors or for an extended period of time, we could just kill this circuit and not have to worry about a fire. If this is a possible mod, it might also be worth it to figure out some kind of alarm to notify us if we try to start the car with this circuit off.

 

Hiya again,

I'll try to answer what questions I can.

Yes - it was the F6 fuse. No - we don't know when MINI decided to change from 30 amp to 20 amp. We are trying to find that out.

Please keep in mind that the report we have is 52 pages long and I only posted a very small portion of it.

"An unknown electrical failure inside the ABS control unit or in the electrical connector for the ABS control unit, was located at the hot spot of the fire (see photo 32). This failure created an electrical short-circuit or high resistance connection, which caused severe overheating at the failure location. Eventually, the temperature reached a level sufficient to ignite combustible material inside the ABS control unit or to melt and ignite the plastic electrical connector or wiring insulation".

The Investigator is an Independent hired by USAA (retired Navy Commander) only AFTER an adjuster had looked at the car and highly suggested that the car be professionally examined as it was obviously something that they rarely see. We had to get a higher authority than our agent to approve this as it was going to be very expensive. That process alone took almost 2 weeks.

Anyway, we want everybody to know that we aren't one of those "sue" happy people. We just want MINI to look at the car!!! It's the least they can do!!!! The Investigator PURPOSELY DID NOT take apart the ABS as he feels MINI should do it and we didn't want to be accused of tampering with evidence.

Listen people, before the investigation even started, the Investigator called me and told me that we needed to be prepared that he may not find anything....okay, we realized that.....

In all honesty, I believe HE HAS found something and we wish to continue pushing MINI to step up to the plate. This is not just for us. It is for all of our MINI friends.....because we care what happens and don't wish this upon any of you....

If MINI chooses to NOT acknowledge an issue, then we are prepared for that. It's not as if we haven't thought about it a million times over the past 2 months....and we DO realize that it's very unlikely that MINI will admit fault. I just want to hear them say it...if they DO admit fault, then great!!!

Am I pissed? Yes! At any of you? No.......Until something like this happens to you, you can't imagine how we feel, the emotional ups and downs, and damn it, we loved that car!!! Simply put, it was a part of us and the absolutely FANTASTIC memories we had in it - with many of you, literally went up in smoke.....

Thanks again to all of you for your input and support. We sincerely appreciate every single response, not matter what it is.

Donna
02' CR/W MCS (gone to MINI heaven - burned up)
05' Cool Blue MCSC "Ariel"

 

We'll be looking for you... Do you by any chance leave for work around 5:45 and take the 76 West to the 5 N? I have seen an EB/W several mornings in the turn lane to get on the 5.....

Donna
02' CR/W MCS (gone to MINI heaven- burned up)
05' Cool Blue MCSC "Ariel"

 

Donna/mike,

That's me on my way to work ! As of two week ago I have been going in to work an hour earlier, now 4:45 . Wow this is nice.

 

Donna/Mike:

Just to pointlessly echo what everyone else has said, thank you for pursuing this and letting us know what the investigator found. I hope MINI responds appropriately, though I'm not optimistic....

Does anyone know whether the "spontaneous combustion" incidents have included both MINIs and MINI S's?

 

This is not a Mini only problem. I was given a NB as a loaner with some warranty work on my Jetta. The ABS light came on so I took it in. A few days later the car caught on fire in the dealer parking lot. Glad I wasn't around for that one. Leaky lines where blamed, heresay of course from the service rep.

Best of luck for a resolution.