R50/53 Enthusiasts (elitists?): Manual Cooper or Auto S?
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Wichita, Kansas
Originally Posted by Cooper4us
I own a Getrag equipped 6-speed manual MCS and a ZF VT-1 CVT equipped Cooper. I love both equally
This is an old debate that is very emotional for most MINI driver's but in my back to back experience with both I personally don't have a problem motoring down the road on a stick shift/CVT/ and now the new Aisin 6-speed automatic slushbox equipped MINI.
There are way too many "Closet Racers" in these forums and that is fine with me. People that are narrow minded and elitist can't help it because every time they type a post their little issues become evident.
The truth of the matter is whether you are a seasoned manual driver or an automatic driver (CVTs are a very different beast for those that have the tendency to lump them together with hydraulically operated slushboxes), you are motoring in one of the finest European motocars in the American road at ANY price.
You are not less of a "Motorer" or an "Enthusiast" or whatever you wanna call it because you pick a Cooper S Auto over a manual version and viceversa.
This is such a divided country in ideologies that even this divisionism is blatant in the choice of one's car transmission.
Motor on and move on!
So let me ask you fellow motorers... If the MINI ONE Diesel model was available in the US, those people opting for a slower but torquier diesel engine would also be less "Enthusiastic" and less of a "Motorer"?? Me thinks not...
This is an old debate that is very emotional for most MINI driver's but in my back to back experience with both I personally don't have a problem motoring down the road on a stick shift/CVT/ and now the new Aisin 6-speed automatic slushbox equipped MINI.
There are way too many "Closet Racers" in these forums and that is fine with me. People that are narrow minded and elitist can't help it because every time they type a post their little issues become evident.
The truth of the matter is whether you are a seasoned manual driver or an automatic driver (CVTs are a very different beast for those that have the tendency to lump them together with hydraulically operated slushboxes), you are motoring in one of the finest European motocars in the American road at ANY price.
You are not less of a "Motorer" or an "Enthusiast" or whatever you wanna call it because you pick a Cooper S Auto over a manual version and viceversa.
This is such a divided country in ideologies that even this divisionism is blatant in the choice of one's car transmission.
Motor on and move on!
So let me ask you fellow motorers... If the MINI ONE Diesel model was available in the US, those people opting for a slower but torquier diesel engine would also be less "Enthusiastic" and less of a "Motorer"?? Me thinks not...
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
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Cooper 4 Us:
"People that are narrow minded and elitist can't help it because every time they type a post their little issues become evident."
Now. let's see....how many words did it take to post your "little issue"?
regards,
Red
"People that are narrow minded and elitist can't help it because every time they type a post their little issues become evident."
Now. let's see....how many words did it take to post your "little issue"?
regards,
Red
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,261
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From: NOT Lalaland, CA
Originally Posted by XAlfa
Hmmm... I live in San Francisco and my daily commute involves a lot of time in stop and go traffic, but I love my manual transmission and would never consider an automatic. My God, is something wrong with me?
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
Reliability varies with both manual and automatic transmissions.
I had a '91 dodge caravan 3 speed automatic that I sold after 12 years and 125,000 miles on the original transmission to buy my MCS. I still have a '95 Nissan Maxima SE with original auto transmission and 108,000 miles.
The manual MC is alot less expensive than the auto MCS- that could make a difference for some budgets.
An auto MCS or MC would have more value for a family with multiple drivers where some only drive auto like younger drivers or spouses.
When it comes to heavy traffic and urban driving the auto is less tiring. For open areas the manual MC would be more responsive and fun. On the track or at autocross either one would be fine- driver skill counts more than the transmission option.
The choice is yours- enjoy the ride.
I had a '91 dodge caravan 3 speed automatic that I sold after 12 years and 125,000 miles on the original transmission to buy my MCS. I still have a '95 Nissan Maxima SE with original auto transmission and 108,000 miles.
The manual MC is alot less expensive than the auto MCS- that could make a difference for some budgets.
An auto MCS or MC would have more value for a family with multiple drivers where some only drive auto like younger drivers or spouses.
When it comes to heavy traffic and urban driving the auto is less tiring. For open areas the manual MC would be more responsive and fun. On the track or at autocross either one would be fine- driver skill counts more than the transmission option.
The choice is yours- enjoy the ride.
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5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Florida
Originally Posted by minihune
On the track or at autocross either one would be fine- driver skill counts more than the transmission option.
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
Originally Posted by greg67
Manual Cooper vs. auto S head-to-head with equal driver skill on an average auto-X course which car is faster?
Slight edge initially to the auto MCS until the manual MC driver can figure out shifting and downshifting. By the end of the season both would be about even on times with a slight advantage to the MCS on raw time and slight advantage to MC in H-stock on PAX adjusted time.
For driver at Intermediate level (1-3 years at autocross, consistently finishes at top of class on local level):
Slight edge on raw time to auto MCS. Advantage to MC in H-stock on PAX time overall. Competition might be more fierce in G-stock but that varies from region to region. Fun to drive either car.
For driver at Advanced level (many years of autocross and competes at national/regional championship events):
Doesn't really matter which car, driver adjusts and compensates for the car and for the course on a given day. Driver may have own bias or preference but results should be close with either car (H-stock for the MC and G-stock for the MCS on the local level)
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Alexandria, VA - Old Town
Although the MINI's CVT automatic is innovative, MINIs are meant to be shifted!! If one is buying a Cooper S, why not get the six-speed? People tell me that it is easier to drive in heavy traffic with an automatic... that's total BS, much like a girl telling you she 'just wants to be friends'. MINIs run nicely in second gear from 10 to 35 mph, and in third from 30 to 55mph, so no need to constantly shift, just put the car in gear and drive.
I have had had a choice on the MINI, I would buy the Cooper S. There is alot more power to be used and it makes the car that much more fun. My two cents...
I have had had a choice on the MINI, I would buy the Cooper S. There is alot more power to be used and it makes the car that much more fun. My two cents...
Originally Posted by greg67
I thought this might bring out some interesting discussion and is aimed at the folks that are against the slushbox and tend to diss the normally aspirated Cooper. So which would you choose the 5-speed manual Cooper or the new automatic S?
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 667
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From: Wappingers Falls, NY
Originally Posted by z3bum
People tell me that it is easier to drive in heavy traffic with an automatic... that's total BS
Have you ever driven in heavy traffic? 
I have, and boy, after 4 hours being stuck in stop and go in Chicago (and I mean "driving" the entire time) the other week, I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' 
Spend 4 hours creeping your car 10 feet at a time and then stopping for 30 seconds, and you'd probably change your tune, too 
But I'm not one to comment because I've owned probably 15 cars and they've ALL been manual transmissions, but I don't have any overwhelming bias against slushboxes. Sure, I wouldn't buy one in a "fun" car, but I don't care if someone else does - and even I'm thinking that we'll replace our daily driver Civic with something that has a slushbox... maybe.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 582
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From: Washington DC area
I would pick the 5-speed MC -- if my knees were not bad and I did not live in a big city with heavy stop and go traffic (for 2 days last week on my normal morning commute, it took an extra half hour each time due to accidents; then on Friday's afternoon commute, it was an extra hour, with that familiar stop-go-stop-go, etc -- just awful!).
If you wait til 2007, the 5-speed MC will have 140 hp, which makes the difference between the MC and MCS smaller. I wonder if the internals on the two engines will be the same or different like they are now? Probably different since the CVT MC will still have 115 hp and there will probably still be a non Cooper MINI too.
If you wait til 2007, the 5-speed MC will have 140 hp, which makes the difference between the MC and MCS smaller. I wonder if the internals on the two engines will be the same or different like they are now? Probably different since the CVT MC will still have 115 hp and there will probably still be a non Cooper MINI too.
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 169
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From: St. Louis, MO USA
Strange question...why the Cooper manual instead of the S manual? If price is not a determining factor (S automatic) why not get the more powerful engine. The 05 S Manual has improved gearing...give it a try. I am not knocking the Cooper as I loved mine for 2 and a half years but if money is not a problem...get the S.
2nd Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 100
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From: Dracut, MA, USA
Originally Posted by Wiggles
With a 5 spd. you drive the car, with an auto you just steer it.
I'm a driver!
I'm a driver!
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 739
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From: Alexandria, VA - Old Town
Well, I drove a manual for eight years on I495 around DC, 27 miles would take about an hour and twenty minutes in the evening... It's not fun, but it's alot more entertaining than just steering. And yes, I quit my job, started my own business and use public transportation to go to projects now... the MINI gets driven for errands and fun! Like today!
Have you ever driven in heavy traffic? I have, and boy, after 4 hours being stuck in stop and go in Chicago (and I mean "driving" the entire time) the other week, I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' Spend 4 hours creeping your car 10 feet at a time and then stopping for 30 seconds, and you'd probably change your tune, too
But I'm not one to comment because I've owned probably 15 cars and they've ALL been manual transmissions, but I don't have any overwhelming bias against slushboxes. Sure, I wouldn't buy one in a "fun" car, but I don't care if someone else does - and even I'm thinking that we'll replace our daily driver Civic with something that has a slushbox... maybe.
Originally Posted by satay-ayam
Have you ever driven in heavy traffic? I have, and boy, after 4 hours being stuck in stop and go in Chicago (and I mean "driving" the entire time) the other week, I'm not buyin' what you're sellin' Spend 4 hours creeping your car 10 feet at a time and then stopping for 30 seconds, and you'd probably change your tune, too But I'm not one to comment because I've owned probably 15 cars and they've ALL been manual transmissions, but I don't have any overwhelming bias against slushboxes. Sure, I wouldn't buy one in a "fun" car, but I don't care if someone else does - and even I'm thinking that we'll replace our daily driver Civic with something that has a slushbox... maybe.
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[QUOTE=jazmini
If you wait til 2007, the 5-speed MC will have 140 hp, which makes the difference between the MC and MCS smaller. I wonder if the internals on the two engines will be the same or different like they are now? Probably different since the CVT MC will still have 115 hp and there will probably still be a non Cooper MINI too.[/QUOTE] By then a MCS may be pushing 240 hp
If you wait til 2007, the 5-speed MC will have 140 hp, which makes the difference between the MC and MCS smaller. I wonder if the internals on the two engines will be the same or different like they are now? Probably different since the CVT MC will still have 115 hp and there will probably still be a non Cooper MINI too.[/QUOTE] By then a MCS may be pushing 240 hp
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: East Tennessee
Originally Posted by chs4
"No, officer, I was not driving over the speed limit...I was merely STEERING. As you can see I have a "slushbox" and from what I've read I have virtually no control over my vehicle once I've turned the key."
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Originally Posted by chs4
"No, officer, I was not driving over the speed limit...I was merely STEERING. As you can see I have a "slushbox" and from what I've read I have virtually no control over my vehicle once I've turned the key."
5th Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: MINIlani,HI
Originally Posted by Cooper4us
So let me ask you fellow motorers... If the MINI ONE Diesel model was available in the US, those people opting for a slower but torquier diesel engine would also be less "Enthusiastic" and less of a "Motorer"?? Me thinks not...
If the MINI ONE was available in the U.S., I would buy one so I can pull my race trailer of wheels, race tires, and my MINI Cooper 5-speed It wouldn't be fair to judge the new MCS Auto until I finally Motor in one
Nothing wrong about dreaming of being an F1 driver with paddle
(automatic) shifters
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5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Florida
Originally Posted by Killerbee
Strange question...why the Cooper manual instead of the S manual? If price is not a determining factor (S automatic) why not get the more powerful engine.
: If you had to give up your 6-speed, would you settle for the auto-S or would you prefer the 5-speed Cooper?"An auto S will only be marginally faster than the 5-speed Cooper in most city driving conditions (under 50 mph). If the primary reason for getting an automatic is for annoying stop and go-type driving conditions why would one need the extra power of a supercharged engine? It's another story on the highway, the auto S would smoke the Cooper.
Last edited by 115hp; Dec 15, 2004 at 07:53 PM. Reason: punctuation
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,256
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From: Chicago, IL
Originally Posted by greg67
This thread was meant primarily for S owners, some of whom want to keep the S exclusive by keeping it a manual only, and perhaps some who snobbishly look down upon the Cooper. Maybe the thread should've read "S-holes : If you had to give up your 6-speed, would you settle for the auto-S or would you prefer the 5-speed Cooper?"
: If you had to give up your 6-speed, would you settle for the auto-S or would you prefer the 5-speed Cooper?"Until my (delivery in January) car shows up and demonstrates her personality, her name will (ironically) be "Patience",
Tatt
5th Gear
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From: Alexandria, VA - Old Town
My little Cooper will take on auto-Ss at the track any day. I just don't trust automatics! If I had an S with a six speed and had to give it up, choosing only an auto-S or 5 speed Cooper, I would be willing to give up some power to get the manual transmission. In reality, I don't think any MINIs should come with automatics, people should learn how to drive stick in order to drive a MINI! But, that's just me, being all fanatic about manual transmissions. If I ever grow up, have a family and some kids, you can bet they won't know what automatics are and will be forced to learn stick. And, IMHO, women who can drive a stick shift car... very, very sexy!
Originally Posted by greg67
This thread was meant primarily for S owners, some of whom want to keep the S exclusive by keeping it a manual only, and perhaps some who snobbishly look down upon the Cooper. Maybe the thread should've read "S-holes : If you had to give up your 6-speed, would you settle for the auto-S or would you prefer the 5-speed Cooper?"
An auto S will only be marginally faster than the 5-speed Cooper in most city driving conditions (under 50 mph). If the primary reason for getting an automatic is for annoying stop and go-type driving conditions why would one need the extra power of a supercharged engine? It's another story on the highway, the auto S would smoke the Cooper.
: If you had to give up your 6-speed, would you settle for the auto-S or would you prefer the 5-speed Cooper?"An auto S will only be marginally faster than the 5-speed Cooper in most city driving conditions (under 50 mph). If the primary reason for getting an automatic is for annoying stop and go-type driving conditions why would one need the extra power of a supercharged engine? It's another story on the highway, the auto S would smoke the Cooper.