R50/53 Update on legal issues (as of August 13th)
Thread Starter
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Colorado
>>
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>>Maybe I'm missing something, but how is this any different from what BMWNA said before? You still can't use mini in a domain name and link to commercial sites.
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>>Are you saying that YOU don't have any financial benefit for linking to all those vendor sites? They aren't paying you for the ads and links? I view what MCO does with ads as being different from a club providing free links to vendors to help it's members get info. That said, I do think both types of vendor linking (paid ads and free) should be allowed.
No - I was saying that every club site that has a link to a commercial site is potentially at risk.
Mark
One concern that I have from their letter is that they indicate that enthusiast sites (eg - clubs) can not have links to commercial sites such as a MINI-focused vendor and be able to have MINI or MINI COOPER in their name. This is still confusing to me in that clubs do not typically have any form of financial benefit for doing so. As this is an ongoing issue I'll provide more updates as they become available.
>>Maybe I'm missing something, but how is this any different from what BMWNA said before? You still can't use mini in a domain name and link to commercial sites.
>>
>>Are you saying that YOU don't have any financial benefit for linking to all those vendor sites? They aren't paying you for the ads and links? I view what MCO does with ads as being different from a club providing free links to vendors to help it's members get info. That said, I do think both types of vendor linking (paid ads and free) should be allowed.
No - I was saying that every club site that has a link to a commercial site is potentially at risk.
Mark
Thread Starter
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
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From: Colorado
>>Hello Everyone,
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>>Just thought you might like to read the letter I sent off to Mr. Purves, Mr. Pitney and Mr. McDowell this morning:
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>>Dear Mr. Purves:
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>>As a new customer to the BMW family, I am writing to you today to add my support to the members of the MINI family in expressing my dis-pleasure in the way that BMW N.A. and MINI USA have been handling the recent Trademark Infringement discussions that have been progressing between your legal counsel, and the owner of the web-service, MINICooperOnline (MCO).
...
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Excellent letter Scott! Thanks for your support on this. Everyone...keep it up...I'm confident that these types of support will result in a mutually beneficial agreement and we can get back to our regular scheduled coverage of the MINI.
Thanks again!
Mark
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>>Just thought you might like to read the letter I sent off to Mr. Purves, Mr. Pitney and Mr. McDowell this morning:
>>
>>Dear Mr. Purves:
>>
>>As a new customer to the BMW family, I am writing to you today to add my support to the members of the MINI family in expressing my dis-pleasure in the way that BMW N.A. and MINI USA have been handling the recent Trademark Infringement discussions that have been progressing between your legal counsel, and the owner of the web-service, MINICooperOnline (MCO).
...
>>
Excellent letter Scott! Thanks for your support on this. Everyone...keep it up...I'm confident that these types of support will result in a mutually beneficial agreement and we can get back to our regular scheduled coverage of the MINI.
Thanks again!
Mark
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 139
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From: SoCal
okay, how about if you just start a legal "not for profit" corporation that promotes the Mini Cooper Online Experience. Heck you could even call it "www.mcoexperience.com" (btw, I just checked http://www.register.com and that domain name is free if you'd like). Then you could ask for "sponsors" that would just help to pay for the costs that the organization incurrs. You could even use the current logo that you have now if you wanted. And then you could pay yourself a salary from the non-profit organization. I wonder if that would be legal?
Neutral
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9
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I'm no expert, so please forgive my naivety here...
But how does magazine media mogul Primedia own VWTrends, 5.0 Mustangs & Super Fords, Chevy High Performance, GM High Tech Performance, High Performance Pontiac, Mopar Muscle, Mustangs & Fords, Mustang Monthly, Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords, Super Chevy and Vette magazine?
http://www.primediautomotive.com/
Obviously those manufacturers saw the light (including German VW) by allowing their brands to be used in a commercial way (supported by both subscribers and advertisers).
Isn't MiniCooperOnline.com an e-zine with a loyal community following (or, as the magazine world term it, "subscribers" writing "letters to the editor"
?
But how does magazine media mogul Primedia own VWTrends, 5.0 Mustangs & Super Fords, Chevy High Performance, GM High Tech Performance, High Performance Pontiac, Mopar Muscle, Mustangs & Fords, Mustang Monthly, Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords, Super Chevy and Vette magazine?
http://www.primediautomotive.com/
Obviously those manufacturers saw the light (including German VW) by allowing their brands to be used in a commercial way (supported by both subscribers and advertisers).
Isn't MiniCooperOnline.com an e-zine with a loyal community following (or, as the magazine world term it, "subscribers" writing "letters to the editor"
? 
2nd Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 64
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From: Memphis TN
Yes and No.
The Copyright holder can license the use of its copyrights and trademarks. This is the norm when a holder wishes to sell its product(s) through legitimate retail outlets and they could authorize (license) Mark to do the same. What they appear to be saying is that no one but BMW/MINI can make money from the trademark.
This is a serious issue. The expenses and investments of time, talent and monies to develop, maintain, promote and manage a polished web operation is significant. Few are in a position to "donate" this level of support, both financially and mentally, to a site without some remuneration or compensation for these investments. And there can be little doubt that this site furnishes an important venue for sharing information and enthusiasm, as well as venting, for MINI enthusiasts. The issue is whether MINI USA, BMW NA, and BMW Worldwide want to have just another car - with all the inherent pressures thereof - like pricing wars, financing giveaways, free goods, etc or whether they wish to continue to feed on the almost crazed support that the new MINI has. Wouldn't they be foolish to give up that base and disappoint so many owners and future owners?
joho, but give it due consideration.
>>(spelling corrected) I recently learned that copyright laws requires the holder to defend the copyright on a legat basis. If BMW does nothing it will loose the copyright. BMW has no choice.<<
The Copyright holder can license the use of its copyrights and trademarks. This is the norm when a holder wishes to sell its product(s) through legitimate retail outlets and they could authorize (license) Mark to do the same. What they appear to be saying is that no one but BMW/MINI can make money from the trademark.
This is a serious issue. The expenses and investments of time, talent and monies to develop, maintain, promote and manage a polished web operation is significant. Few are in a position to "donate" this level of support, both financially and mentally, to a site without some remuneration or compensation for these investments. And there can be little doubt that this site furnishes an important venue for sharing information and enthusiasm, as well as venting, for MINI enthusiasts. The issue is whether MINI USA, BMW NA, and BMW Worldwide want to have just another car - with all the inherent pressures thereof - like pricing wars, financing giveaways, free goods, etc or whether they wish to continue to feed on the almost crazed support that the new MINI has. Wouldn't they be foolish to give up that base and disappoint so many owners and future owners?
joho, but give it due consideration.
>>(spelling corrected) I recently learned that copyright laws requires the holder to defend the copyright on a legat basis. If BMW does nothing it will loose the copyright. BMW has no choice.<<
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2
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From: Austin, TX
Hello all,
I've been following this discourse for awhile now, and have posted to a couple other forums I'm a member of in order to get a little extra support for you guys.
Apologies if this has already been covered, but has anyone written the VP of Marketing about all of this? I'm thinking (s)he must have steam coming out of his/her ears with regards to what the legal department is doing. The marketing team for MINI has been nothing short of spectacular in promoting the car, and this is sure to be undoing a great deal of their hard work.
A little extra internal pressure can't hurt either, I guess.
This may have been covered though...
-E
I've been following this discourse for awhile now, and have posted to a couple other forums I'm a member of in order to get a little extra support for you guys.
Apologies if this has already been covered, but has anyone written the VP of Marketing about all of this? I'm thinking (s)he must have steam coming out of his/her ears with regards to what the legal department is doing. The marketing team for MINI has been nothing short of spectacular in promoting the car, and this is sure to be undoing a great deal of their hard work.
A little extra internal pressure can't hurt either, I guess.
This may have been covered though...
-E
Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,251
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From: San Antonio, TX
A couple of notes:
I like the idea of incorporating 501C3 very much. I don't know about cost, but yes, you could do such a thing and pay yourself a salary. You would need a board, but I don't think finding board members would be too difficult!
I also like the address http://www.mcoexperience.com so that gets my vote!
After having a lengthy conversation with one of the MINIUSA Brand Gurus at a club meeting the other night, I definitely see the light a little more from BMW's angle. They have a trademark that they intend to protect forever. If they don't take legal stands at this point, then they basically abandon their opportunity to ever take stands against a site that might be far more problematic.
I think that a happy solution is going to occur, despite the sudden influx of conspiracy theories on this site.
Good luck, Mark, and hang in there!
Maxwell
I like the idea of incorporating 501C3 very much. I don't know about cost, but yes, you could do such a thing and pay yourself a salary. You would need a board, but I don't think finding board members would be too difficult!
I also like the address http://www.mcoexperience.com so that gets my vote!
After having a lengthy conversation with one of the MINIUSA Brand Gurus at a club meeting the other night, I definitely see the light a little more from BMW's angle. They have a trademark that they intend to protect forever. If they don't take legal stands at this point, then they basically abandon their opportunity to ever take stands against a site that might be far more problematic.
I think that a happy solution is going to occur, despite the sudden influx of conspiracy theories on this site.
Good luck, Mark, and hang in there!
Maxwell
I just joined today, but have been lurking for 4 months or so. My 03 MCS PS/B will be here in 2 weeks. I wondered what happened to the petition, it seems to be stuck around 2200-2300 or so, I was number 631 to sign, and it seems like there is only a trickle of additions in the last few days, what is up people? From what I understand there are like 9000 members here, have we abandoned the petition?
If not what is the issue?
...and Mark, thanks for making this a great site, I will also be a MCS owner because this site. :smile: Thanks for the dedication to all of us!
If not what is the issue?
...and Mark, thanks for making this a great site, I will also be a MCS owner because this site. :smile: Thanks for the dedication to all of us!
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,422
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From: Lockport, NY, USA
>>After having a lengthy conversation with one of the MINIUSA Brand Gurus at a club meeting the other night, I definitely see the light a little more from BMW's angle. They have a trademark that they intend to protect forever. If they don't take legal stands at this point, then they basically abandon their opportunity to ever take stands against a site that might be far more problematic.
Well, why don't they take a stand on the much more 'questionable' MINI products that some vendors are selling? Like products with the EXACT MINI logo on it, or products that have the little outline of a MINI (like my user Icon) that is use in MINI publications. Not anything and everything that has MINI in it, and starting with a large fan based community...
PS: I'm currently working on getting the latest Tech TV segment up on my " Excuse For A Webpage (TM)" for thoes who didn't catch it...
Rocketboy_X
Well, why don't they take a stand on the much more 'questionable' MINI products that some vendors are selling? Like products with the EXACT MINI logo on it, or products that have the little outline of a MINI (like my user Icon) that is use in MINI publications. Not anything and everything that has MINI in it, and starting with a large fan based community...
PS: I'm currently working on getting the latest Tech TV segment up on my " Excuse For A Webpage (TM)" for thoes who didn't catch it...
Rocketboy_X
4th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 573
Likes: 0
From: Stroudsburg, PA
Mark,
Has there been any hint that BMWNA might sell you a liscense to use the MINI name, therefore still maintaining control? Does anyone know what such a liscense would cost? I'm sure this has been covered, but it seems to be the only direction to compromise.
Has there been any hint that BMWNA might sell you a liscense to use the MINI name, therefore still maintaining control? Does anyone know what such a liscense would cost? I'm sure this has been covered, but it seems to be the only direction to compromise.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,422
Likes: 0
From: Lockport, NY, USA
Ok, the tech tv segment is up... my website's located at
http://users.adelphia.net/~rocketboy/index.html
Rocketboy_X
http://users.adelphia.net/~rocketboy/index.html
Rocketboy_X
Former Vendor
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,174
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From: Los Angeles
More on the Mini_Fini name: For those of you not aware. Mini-Fini is an aftermarket supplier see http://www.minifini.com
Here's their trademark information
Word Mark MINI-FINI
Goods and Services IC 012. US 019 021 023 031 035 044. G & S: Accessories for motor vehicles, namely, trailer hitches, bicycle racks, storage racks, and consoles with coin holders and cup holders
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 78152284
Filing Date August 8, 2002
Filed ITU FILED AS ITU
Published for Opposition March 25, 2003
Owner (APPLICANT) Mini-Fini, Ltd. CORPORATION NORTH CAROLINA 6216 Howie Mine Church Road Waxhaw NORTH CAROLINA 28173
Attorney of Record John C. Hilton
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
My point is that BMW NA/MINI USA appears to have no problem with another company acquiring a TM containing the word MINI nor does it seem to have a problem with MINI in the MINI-FINI url.
I'm not a legal type but being that there are no references to being officially licensced or even a "friend of the marque" note on their website.
I'm sure you read these boards , Mini-Fini...care to comment.
I've also noticed that Mini-Fini has a link to MINI2.com but not to MCO on their website. Let's find out how far into bed with BMW they are. Conspiracy theory...no.
Just trying to make sense of it all.
_________________
http://www.miniswag.com - An MCO sponsor
Here's their trademark information
Word Mark MINI-FINI
Goods and Services IC 012. US 019 021 023 031 035 044. G & S: Accessories for motor vehicles, namely, trailer hitches, bicycle racks, storage racks, and consoles with coin holders and cup holders
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 78152284
Filing Date August 8, 2002
Filed ITU FILED AS ITU
Published for Opposition March 25, 2003
Owner (APPLICANT) Mini-Fini, Ltd. CORPORATION NORTH CAROLINA 6216 Howie Mine Church Road Waxhaw NORTH CAROLINA 28173
Attorney of Record John C. Hilton
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
My point is that BMW NA/MINI USA appears to have no problem with another company acquiring a TM containing the word MINI nor does it seem to have a problem with MINI in the MINI-FINI url.
I'm not a legal type but being that there are no references to being officially licensced or even a "friend of the marque" note on their website.
I'm sure you read these boards , Mini-Fini...care to comment.
I've also noticed that Mini-Fini has a link to MINI2.com but not to MCO on their website. Let's find out how far into bed with BMW they are. Conspiracy theory...no.
Just trying to make sense of it all.
_________________
http://www.miniswag.com - An MCO sponsor
Banned
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, Ca
From what I've heard... Mini-Fini is an official Aftermarket supplier... which tells me that they have paid or are being paid to be exclusive.
Worth looking into I believe... But i would not be surprised if Mini-Fini was owned by MiniUSA in a roundabout way... Isn't MiniUSA located in the same place?
Worth looking into I believe... But i would not be surprised if Mini-Fini was owned by MiniUSA in a roundabout way... Isn't MiniUSA located in the same place?
2nd Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
From: Arizona, USA
OK. It doesn't sound like much has changed in what BMW is demanding. Am I wrong? I don't feel like there has been an optimistic outcome other than all of the wonderful support from members and the tenacity of Mark.
I don't think a change of name would be a good solution, but it's great that people are coming up with new ideas. Setting up a non-profit is not as simple as it sounds. I'm sure somebody out there could help, but it can be a very tricky thing, especially if you're going to ever take money from sponsors.
Anyway, in response to http://www.mcoexperience.com I would suggest dropping the "o" and just making it www. mcexperience.com.
Lastly, would BMW be able to mess with http://www.cooperonline.com or coopersonline.com or http://www.mycooperexperience.com. I'm not sure that they could find legal ground for this, but then again......
I don't think a change of name would be a good solution, but it's great that people are coming up with new ideas. Setting up a non-profit is not as simple as it sounds. I'm sure somebody out there could help, but it can be a very tricky thing, especially if you're going to ever take money from sponsors.
Anyway, in response to http://www.mcoexperience.com I would suggest dropping the "o" and just making it www. mcexperience.com.
Lastly, would BMW be able to mess with http://www.cooperonline.com or coopersonline.com or http://www.mycooperexperience.com. I'm not sure that they could find legal ground for this, but then again......
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
>>>>I've also noticed that Mini-Fini has a link to MINI2.com but not to MCO on their website. Let's find out how far into bed with BMW they are. Conspiracy theory...no.
>>
>>Just trying to make sense of it all.
If I am not mistaken, they are an official sponsor of MINI2, thus the link to the site.
>>
>>Just trying to make sense of it all.
If I am not mistaken, they are an official sponsor of MINI2, thus the link to the site.
Thread Starter
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North American Motoring :: Founder
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,070
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From: Colorado
>>Mark,
>>
>> Has there been any hint that BMWNA might sell you a liscense to use the MINI name, therefore still maintaining control? Does anyone know what such a liscense would cost? I'm sure this has been covered, but it seems to be the only direction to compromise.
>>
>>
This is something that we have proposed and are awaiting feedback. I'll provide an update when I have something.
Thanks
Mark
>>
>> Has there been any hint that BMWNA might sell you a liscense to use the MINI name, therefore still maintaining control? Does anyone know what such a liscense would cost? I'm sure this has been covered, but it seems to be the only direction to compromise.
>>
>>
This is something that we have proposed and are awaiting feedback. I'll provide an update when I have something.
Thanks
Mark
3rd Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
From: Eugene
BMW is sometimes so stuck on their arrogant superior engineering image and name that it makes me want to puke. I can hear them saying, "We ARE BMW, and we know best".
They have major problem with the "Stumble" issue, but choose to spend resources to attack Mark and try to steal the site he has developed. This is the best MINI site I have found and has been an extremely useful tool as I wait for circumstances to change so I can place my MCS order. I have to admit that I am starting to have second thoughts.
BMW is very slow to admit problems, and they have lost many sales of their "oil head" motorcycles because they wouldn't admit they had a surge problem. The MCS stumble is a serious enough problem that it will keep me from buying a MINI until it is fixed.
BMW's assault on businesses that have MINI or any derivative of MINI in their name is dumb at best. It is garbage like this that makes me want to by another brand. Before I order a MINI, BMW will have to address the "Stumble" and show some appreciation for MINI fanatics like those on this site and the some of the sponsors of this site that are also being attacked for using the MINI name.
As owner of two BMW Motorcycles, and a possible MINI owner, I would hope BMW would listen to their owners and do the right thing. If they choose to treat all members of this sight this way, then I will be very likely to choose to do all my future purchases with other brands. They are not the only game in town for cars or motorcycles. BMW be supportive and listen to what your customer's say or you will lose them forever.
They have major problem with the "Stumble" issue, but choose to spend resources to attack Mark and try to steal the site he has developed. This is the best MINI site I have found and has been an extremely useful tool as I wait for circumstances to change so I can place my MCS order. I have to admit that I am starting to have second thoughts.
BMW is very slow to admit problems, and they have lost many sales of their "oil head" motorcycles because they wouldn't admit they had a surge problem. The MCS stumble is a serious enough problem that it will keep me from buying a MINI until it is fixed.
BMW's assault on businesses that have MINI or any derivative of MINI in their name is dumb at best. It is garbage like this that makes me want to by another brand. Before I order a MINI, BMW will have to address the "Stumble" and show some appreciation for MINI fanatics like those on this site and the some of the sponsors of this site that are also being attacked for using the MINI name.
As owner of two BMW Motorcycles, and a possible MINI owner, I would hope BMW would listen to their owners and do the right thing. If they choose to treat all members of this sight this way, then I will be very likely to choose to do all my future purchases with other brands. They are not the only game in town for cars or motorcycles. BMW be supportive and listen to what your customer's say or you will lose them forever.