- Car & Drive on the MCS, May '07.

Talking about "faster than human reaction" misses the point. The fact is that on most of the cars with some form of stability control that I've driven, stability control kicks in and spoils your fun while the car is still within an envelope that is managable by a decent driver who is just enjoying a sporting drive.

They do this because for all the speed of the whiz bang electronics they don't really know what the road ahead looks like so they have to err on the side of caution.

Safety feature or not, the bottom line is that many cars are less enjoyable to drive briskly with DSC (ESC, or super-dynama-stabilitrac if you like) enabled. Right now you have the option of turning it off, but don't be surprised if the bueracrats, the politicians, or the lawyers don't take that option away as well.

 

No. It's still part of the purchase consideration. It's still reflected in the demographics of the buyer who wants or can afford a car with that as a standard feature. Unless you're going to hand out cars with and without DSC to random consumers the statististics aren't really a reliable measure of the impact of this one factor.

 

Dr.
from what i have read (rushes to find sources before the dogs pounce) the R56 system is better and does not cut in so aggresively.

 

How can it be a consideration if it just comes standard with the car?

If our going to argue that statistics can be twisted then fine ... its pointless to argue. A form of DSC came standard on my SUV ... yes SUV.

Another form of ESC comes standard on my new Porsche and while you can "turn it off", in fact you can't really. It just lowers the threshold where it turns on to save your butt. Like it or not, they are not going away and will become more prevalant in the future.

Not more enjoyable, then there is always the option to build a pure race car if thats your hobby . In fact that is an interesting question if true race cars have some form of ESC. Its already proven that humans can't shift faster than DSG, I'm betting some form of ESC also exists in some race cars.

 

Yeah, that's probably one of the reasons why the track entheusiasts in these forums mention that that they turn DSC off. I think it's part of their sport to allow them to directly control how much the back end slides out. They don't want outside interference from DSC, traction control, or anything else for that matter.

 

F1 went through a period where "driver aids" became a huge part of the sport. Automatic shift, traction control, active suspension - it was a big engineering competition. The electronics were tuned not for safety but to generate the absolute quickest lap time.

A lot of people hated it because it took a lot the human ability out of the equation. Eventually a lot of the driver aids were eliminated by rule because of that and the expense.

 

When I want to drive my JCW to get adrenaline sensations I turn off the DSC... it's much better!!!

 

As long as we've mentioned them, am I to assume ASC = ESC = DSC--just different names for the essentially the same thing?

 

Yes. If you look at the earlier posted video from BMW they say just that.

 

Thanks. My laptop doesn't like videos.

 

Actually, no, not the way daffodildeb wrote it.

ESC = DSC, true

ASC does NOT equal DSC though.

Let me put it this way... DSC = ASC "plus more"

ASC does not have yaw control, and for the most part only concerns itself with wheelspin on the driving wheels. If you accelerate too hard and it causes the tires to start spinning, it will cut power and/or apply braking power to reduce the spin. This has caused many people frustration when they want to spin their tires, or sometimes simply when they want to accelerate hard (say, turning through a busy intersection in-between oncoming traffic), and the system slows the car down all of a sudden. In the best of cases, it's annoying. In the wrong conditions (like the intersection), it's downright scary.

ASC can really help in very slippery conditions though, especially when trying to climb a hill.

Now... DSC takes the existing ASC features and adds extra stuff. The extra stuff is primarily a yaw sensor, and the electronics to calculate keeping you on the correct trajectory. It accomplishes this feat by detecting when the car is spinning around (i.e. the whole car, not just the driving wheels), and it will apply brakes to individual wheels in order to point you back on the right path.

DSC is truly incredible technology when you experience what it can really do. I call it a "hand of God", because it honestly feels like you start to spin... and a big giant hand comes down and puts you back on track again.

See, the vast majority of complaints are actually about the ASC features (during heavy acceleration), not the DSC features... but unfortunately it is impossible (from the factory) to turn off the ASC features and keep the DSC features enabled. I wish I could!

In any case, it's important to understand the distinct difference between ASC and DSC, at least in the MINI/BMW world. ASC is only a subset of DSC, and is not the full "ESC" feature that they are talking about.

 

the system in the older new Mini is very slow. Not in it's reaction time, but in what it does to control what the car is doing. It cuts power very hard, and that upsets tons of stuff with sudden wieght transfer, but even worse, it happens right near the apex of the turn, when you need to put power down to pull out of the turn and start gaining speed. The heartbeat and a half that passes before the power comes back on seems like forever!

As far as race cars, a lot of it depends on the rules. Lotus ran some active suspensions that were banned, and a lot of this stuff falls into areas where it may or may not be allowed.

I actually like the system when modified to be less intrusive. I kept forgetting to turn it off when I was on the track at Las Vegas, but only on a few laps did it hammer my speed. You can also use it as a coach, hitting the same spot faster and see how deep you can get before it tries to help... It's not a bad coach. I could get it to the edge of four wheel drift without it doing anything.

But whatever, if you really, really hate stuff like this find your favorite car from the early 80s or so (late sixties or earlier if you want to ditch fuel injection and emissions control as well), and live with the seat belts (if equipped), the skinny tires, the solid steering columns and on and on. But complaining that this stuff is in new cars is like complaining that there are dome lights. They're there, and will be.

Matt

 

Thanks for the clarification, Edge!

 

I dont know about you.. but if I buy a Mini, it's b/c it's fun to drive.
And why not add to just SUVs instead of all cars (this is part that I have
problem with).

 

This is the part I am most afraid of... well, maybe it's a good thing for
Porsche owners, you know having engine on the wrong end of the car and
all.

 

DSC can be fun, if programmed right. A friend with a Porsche Carrera uses the dash indicator light as feedback when he is near the edge. However, I agree that it if DSC is too aggressive -- comes on too soon -- it can be annoying.

It will probably get mandated. Let's just hope they don't mandate soccer-mom SUV level programming for all cars.

 

It appears traction controlled started in the 1980s in F1.

It has been around in various guises since the 1980s, and cars like the 1992 Williams-Renault FW14-B which took Nigel Mansell to his drivers' championship title were even more electronic-packed than the current cars - featuring computer-controlled active suspension in addition ...

Outlawed in the 1990s, traction control was legalized for the 2001 season ...

Traction control axed from 2008
30 March 2007

Traction control will no longer be legal in Formula One racing from the start of next season.

http://www.formula1.com

So it has been used since the 1980s. Banned in the 1990s, reintroduced in 2001, now banned again for next year.

Since most everything goes in cycles, you have to figure it will be reintroduced again and banned again

 

800 or so hp @ 1300 lb..... I have no idea how they get power to the ground

 

well , im glad i opted to get the DSC in my r56 S instead of LSD. one seems like a "fun performance" option and the other a "cant live without saftey feature".

 

so under the proposed regulations - ASC that ships as standard on the MINIs considered "DSC"?

 

A good analogy... although on dry pavement, you'd probably be better off with LSD... DSC shines in rain and snow. My answer on which to get is always both... but yes, I know that not everyone is prepared to throw money at so many options!No Kurt - see my post above (#36). ASC is not the same as DSC. ASC is only a subset.

 

They can't and don't.

Formula One cars are massively powerful. Even with the grip of modern racing tyres and the assistance of aerodynamic downforce, they are still capable of 'breaking traction' or developing wheelspin up to very high speeds, especially under the loads imposed by cornering. This is inefficient, slows the car down and can damage tyres.

Same F1 source.

 

2 reasons. One, if you lose control, you are more likely to get in an accident and thus more likely to flip. Second, if you are slipping, i.e. skidding sideways, you are more likely to have a side impact crash from which most rollovers occur.

 

Although I understand the points being made in this thread, I can give a good example of why SUVs do NOT suck. We have 5 kids living with us. Because we have an SUV that lets us take the whole family and gear with us places, my wife agreed to buy me the MINI, which can't carry my son's guitar, let alone all the other stuff.

 

You got it exactly right, --more cost, more complexity, and one more thing to fail and leave you stranded at some point. "Ah, we've found the problem sir, your stability control module. Now if you would, please hand over your wallet so that we might perform the appropriate biopsy. We'll let you know the cost to repair once the results are back."