As I've mentioned in a couple other threads, I've decided to sell my current MINI, since I see the Midlands 5-speed gearbox as an enormous long-term liability. Until recently, I was sure that I would order a new MINI with the 5-speed Getrag, but additional problems that keep coming up are making me rethink that idea.

Only problem, there just isn't very much competition out there at all, when my priorities are laid out. It's really pretty simple. I want a hatchback, and I want excellent fuel economy. Period. As far as new cars go, that narrows the field down to exactly three cars:

MINI Cooper
Scion xA
VW Golf

First of all, I'll never buy a VW. A few friends have had them, and they've been total nightmares. My roommates girlfriend's '96 Passat with less than 100k miles is falling apart with absurd quickness. And then there's that whole ignition coil fiasco. No thanks. I'm looking for more reliability, not less.

And the Scion xA, besides being plain old ugly as far as I'm concerned, has had some very unflattering reviews - poor build quality, gaps and irregularities in exterior trim, very noisy engine at highway speeds, etc. Plus it's four doors, which I don't really want, and side airbags are an expensive option.

Mazda 3 - mediocre fuel economy, Ford "quality"
Focus - the most problem-plagued car in recent memory - no thanks. Crappy fuel economy, too.
Various Hyundais, Kias, etc. - nope.
Honda Civic hatch - they only offer it in the US in the Si version with 160 HP and crappy fuel economy. Plus, it's unbelievably ugly for a Honda. It actually make the Insight look nice!

So, my only other choice, and the one I would probably go with if I don't reorder a MINI, is the most recent Civic hatch with base engine - 2000 model year. I could find one with low-ish miles, and pocket $8,000 to $10,000 when I sell my MINI. Not bad. The primary problem here, besides buying an older car that may have been abused, is that I've really gotten used to the safety of the MINI, and the Honda, excellent as it is, would be a huge step down in that area. No side or curtain airbags, no ABS (which I would actually really like!), and nowhere near as rigid a passenger compartment. I feel safer in the MINI than I have in previous larger cars.

I should also mention that while I'm happy to see hybrids selling so well, I won't buy one of those, either - at least not yet. The batteries are an unproven long-term item, and there's been a lot of talk about the necessity of possibly replacing the battery around 100k miles, for multiple thousands of $.

Did anyone else have very high standards fuel economy-wise when you shopped for a car, and if so, what else did you consider? Frankly, I'm insulted as a consumer that these are the only options I have.

_________________
"Meine dispatcher says there is something wrong with deine cable"

 

This may be totally off base, but have you considered a Prius?

It certainly would beat any MINI on fuel economy. And while it's not exactly a racer, it does ok around town and can hold its own with traffic on the highway. I have a number of friends/relatives with them and aside from MINI owners, I can't think of a group of people more in love with their cars. It's just that kind of thing.

Oh, and the new version is a hatchback I believe.

 

Jeff,
Just edited my post above to include my beef with hybrids. When I buy a car, I really want it to last for 10+ years, and well over 100k. I don't think that's too much to ask. Unfortunately I don't think the hybrids are quite there yet.

 

I am surprised to read about comments on the uneven build quality of the Scions...these are Toyotas made in Almighty and perfect Japan...hmmmm.

How about the Xb? I think it is ugly but it has something about it that makes it more attractive than the conventional looking Xa hatch.

Remember that both Scion Xa and Xb ride on the same exact platform and powertrain as the Toyota Echo, so one can expect classic econo-golf cart handling and performance.

My brother in Law has a Brazilian made 2002 VW Golf GL 5 door hatchback (Gas powrered, 2.0L engine) and the car so har in two years has been rock solid. It almost matches most of the safety of the MINI and it is actually a quite nice car to drive but it doesn't have the handling prowess of the MINI. I guess he has been lucky with his Golf. He gets pretty good fuel economy even for an automatic 4 speed. he paid $16K even for his...it has power locks but not power windows.

The VW's that seem to generate the least complaints are the Brazilian made ones (Like the Golfs and GTIs). The German made VW's (Jetta wagon, Passat, Touareg, Phaeton) are a crapshoot and the Puebla, Mexico made ones (Jetta/Beetle) are the most troublesome ones of the bunch

 

>>Remember that both Scion Xa and Xb ride on the same exact platform and powertrain as the Toyota Echo, so one can expect classic econo-golf cart handling and performance.<<

I may just go drive an xB just for the hell of it, but I don't know. It's awfully weird-looking. I don't know if I can get over that front bumper!

>>The VW's that seem to generate the least complaints are the Brazilian made ones (Like the Golfs and GTIs). The German made VW's (Jetta wagon, Passat, Touareg, Phaeton) are a crapshoot and the Puebla, Mexico made ones (Jetta/Beetle) are the most troublesome ones of the bunch <<

Actually, the plan would be to get a late-model 2004. I don't care for the new bumpers and taillights, and I want to make this transaction sooner rather than later, so that I can get as much for my car as possible.

 

In the Scions the "bait" is the Pioneer factory stereo that generates very good sound quality. My problem with them though, is that they lack side airbags and I believe they are not even available in the Xb. For most other safety features, they do seem to go along the MINI (EBD, ABS, etc).

The Xb is an eyesore for sure but if I were to get one, I would get it in black and put tinted windows...that would be a cool looking bad boy!

I have yet to see crash test scores on the Scions.

As for the MINI, I taught the main reason you wanted to trade in or sell your current Cooper was because of the Midlands gearbox....but if you get a '04 you'll probably still get the same transmission, unless, MINI begins to install it beginning with the July '04 builds, which would give you a late model '04 with the same exterior touches as your current car but with the added bonus of the new Getrag 5-speed.


I hope this works out for you.

 

>>As for the MINI, I thought the main reason you wanted to trade in or sell your current Cooper was because of the Midlands gearbox....but if you get a '04 you'll probably still get the same transmission, unless, MINI begins to install it beginning with the July '04 builds, which would give you a late model '04 with the same exterior touches as your current car but with the added bonus of the new Getrag 5-speed.<<

From reading Gabe's site, it sounds like the Getrags may start going into Coopers as early as April, but almost definitely by July. So, I'd be shooting for somewhere in between where the tranny gets switched and where the new exterior trim arrives in September. I'm really hoping for some help from the dealer on this specific situation, but so far I'm not encouraged.

>>I hope this works out for you.

Thanks!

 

>>>When I buy a car, I really want it to last for 10+ years, and well over 100k. I don't think that's too much to ask. Unfortunately I don't think the hybrids are quite there yet.

Since I don't own one, I won't argue too strenuously for them other than to note that as of 2004, the battery pack in a Prius is warranted for EIGHT years or 100K miles. Other than intellectual concerns (i.e., worry), there's no data on the Prius yet to indicate that the batteries will do anything other than what they're supposed to do. I've read in several places that Toyota has yet to replace a single set under warranty. Finally, even if you did have to replace it at the current price ($3000), you'd have saved much more than that cost in terms of tax breaks ($2000) and annual fuel savings for 3 years. Besides, in the 3 or 4 years it'd take you to put 100K on the car, I'd be pretty sure that the cost of the battery will be less than its current price (and it'll probably be a better battery as well due to constantly improving technology).

All that argument aside, I too think you should get another MINI

 

Aesthetic issues about the Scion xA and xB aside, there is always the upcoming Scion tC, which is a two-door coupe based off the Toyota Avensis:


The current Civic is available in a hatchback in Si trim. True, its mileage is slightly lower than that of a MINI or Volkswagen Golf, but when you consider what non-warranty repairs will cost on a MINI or VW Golf in ten years/100k miles, the slight difference in city mileage will be more than offset by the complete and total lack of repairs to the Honda. Seriously, have you ever been inside a Honda K20/K24 engine? That thing's built like a brick (or in this case, aluminum) outhouse. The Si also has available side airbags, and they aren't selling particularly well, which means you can make one helluva deal with your MC on trade.

 

The tC's not a bad-looking car, but I have a lot of tall friends, and that back seat, if indeed there is one, doesn't look like anyone would want to try to squeeze in back there!

Checked out the Civic si today, and I'm not interested. Highway fuel economy is only rated at 30 mpg, and plus (I didn't realize) they start over $20k, which is more than I want to spend.

Also checked out the Scions this afternoon. Pretty nice cars, especially the xB. For a $14k car, it felt very solid, and had a quality feel to it. But the interiors of both cars are just awful, the dashes in particular. Really tacky, and way too consciously aimed at what Toyota obviously thinks younger buyers will find attractive. Yuck. I haven't ruled out either car; I'm going to head back for a test drive. So far I'm not encouraged, though, the xB's stickshift on the showroom floor felt VERY imprecise and loose and insubstantial, much like the Tercel I test drove a few years ago. I think I've gotten spoiled by the MINI's gearbox and the B&M short shift kit! Anything else under $20k is going to feel like crap, I fear.

_________________
"Meine dispatcher says there is something wrong with deine cable"

 

True, Toyota's shifters have always been very light and allowed lots of axial movement. I'm preferential to Honda's manuals. What you get in a Civic or Accord is not too far off in terms of feel from what you'd get in a S2000 or NSX. Light, smooth, and precise.

Still, I'm glad that you went to check out the Si. Too bad it doesn't meet your needs.

 

I took a test drive in the Scion xA today. The car has decent power, comparable to the Cooper - only 108 hp, but it's 400 pounds lighter. My main problem was with the driving position. I felt like I was at least a foot higher off the road than in my MINI, while still in a similar-sized car. The "waistline" of the car (base of the windows) is lower with respect to the driver's position, especially since I have my seat adjusted all the way down vertically in my MINI. With all the extra glass below you, it really feels like you're driving a van, which is strange for such a small car. The play in the gearshift was amazing compared to the MINI - incredibly imprecise and loose. I didn't like it. And like I mentioned earlier, the dash is pretty ugly and nonfunctional. My current gut feeling is that this car won't cut it with me.

I'm going to drive an xB as soon as the dealership has a 5-speed available without the lowering springs and tuned exhaust and other stuff that I wouldn't buy from the factory or the dealer. However, the gearshift seems to have the same loose, imprecise feel, judging from the one on the showroom floor.

_________________
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." -Oscar Wilde

 

Decided to add the Toyota Matrix to the consideration list. My friend gets over 40 mpg in her Matrix with automatic transmission, and it's a decent-looking car. Unfortunately it's plagued by the same interior design team that mucked up the Scions. Funky to the point of being silly.

I figure I can't order an '05 MINI until at least May, so in the meantime I might as well at least drive other cars, if only to make myself feel better about being taken advantage of with my current MINI. The more I think about this transmission thing, the angrier I get that BMW is too cheap to recall the cars. Obviously I shouldn't be surprised; they were too cheap to recall the windshield, so why should they recall a part that actually contributes to the longevity of the vehicle?

 

>>Decided to add the Toyota Matrix to the consideration list. My friend gets over 40 mpg in her Matrix with automatic transmission, and it's a decent-looking car. Unfortunately it's plagued by the same interior design team that mucked up the Scions. Funky to the point of being silly.
>>
>>I figure I can't order an '05 MINI until at least May, so in the meantime I might as well at least drive other cars, if only to make myself feel better about being taken advantage of with my current MINI. The more I think about this transmission thing, the angrier I get that BMW is too cheap to recall the cars. Obviously I shouldn't be surprised; they were too cheap to recall the windshield, so why should they recall a part that actually contributes to the longevity of the vehicle?

I you are considering the Matrix, I also recommend you take a closer look at the Pontiac Vibe which is essentially the same exact car as the Toyota, but looks much better and has better levels of standard equipment.

Don't expect the same kind of handling on the Matrix/Vibe as in the MINI. You can get the Vibe with a generous GM discount and rebates something you can't get on the similar Matrix.

 

The Pontiac Vibe is assembled at the NUMMI GM/Toyota venture plant in Fremont, California. NUMMI also manufactures the current Toyota Corolla and Toyota Tacoma small pickups. Funny thing is that NUMMI produces an export RHD version of the Pontiac Vibe that is re-sold as the Toyota Vibe in the Japanese market. It seems the Japanese like the Vibe better than the Matrix.

The Toyota Matrix is assembled in a Toyota plant in Canada.

 

^ Beat me to it.

Yeah, the Vibe could be had at a considerable discount from the Matrix...and you get to experience that great GM feeling for purchase and service. But seriously, they're the same car.

Oh, and I think you can get the Vibe in a really shocking yellow.

 

I am not sure the volume of problems is high enough for an actual recall. I don't know the total number of Copper 5 speeds in existence, but what do you think the failure rate is on the tranny?

I personally think the Scions are neat, and they have a pretty hip advertising campaign. I can't wait to see one in person....

 

Chris, Chris, Chris. We all know you're going to end up getting an '05 Cooper.

 

Even though I know it's the same car under the skin, I don't think I could stomach driving a Pontiac. And am I jumping to conclusions, or does the Pontiac somehow manage to get worse fuel economy? I don't know why, but it seems like slapping an American badge on a car is good for at least a 10-20% drop in fuel economy. I find it hard to imagine a Pontiac getting 31 mpg in town, but maybe I'm wrong...

>>I am not sure the volume of problems is high enough for an actual recall. I don't know the total number of Copper 5 speeds in existence, but what do you think the failure rate is on the tranny?<<

I don't know the rate, but I guarantee it's much higher than reading this forum would lead you to believe. The replacements are being done under warranty, and dealers are providing some sort of garbled story about the transmissions being "remanufactured" to address the problem. I think most people are just buying the story and moving on none the wiser.

>>Chris, Chris, Chris. We all know you're going to end up getting an '05 Cooper.

Just work with me here... I'm trying to at least explore my options before I go ahead and reward MINI's lack of response with another new car purchase.

_________________
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." -Oscar Wilde

 

Do you think transmissions are being replaced without giving the owners full knowledge of the work being done? Obviously only a minute number of MINI owners actually post on these boards, so it truly is difficult to tell the true scope of the problem.

 

>>Do you think transmissions are being replaced without giving the owners full knowledge of the work being done? Obviously only a minute number of MINI owners actually post on these boards, so it truly is difficult to tell the true scope of the problem.<<

No, I don't think THAT'S happening, but I think people are being lulled into complacence by the fact that their warranty is covering the transmission (THIS time).

I'm leaning perilously toward the Matrix right now...

 

We currently have a Scion xA since July, 03 and a MINI that's about 2 months old. To my surprise, the xA is actually a quality-built automobile with excellent fuel efficiency. When I installed the stereo/nav system on the xA, all the panels refitted easily and perfectly, contrary to the MINI. From the details of the wiring and design, one can sense the perfectionism and precision in Toyota's craftsmanship.

Eversince I had my driver's license, I've been a long-term European car enthusiast. Unfortunately, due to the quality issues I've personally encountered, I'm slowly shifting to Japanese brands.

 

I can barely believe it, but I've made up my mind to sell my Cooper and purchase a Toyota Matrix.

_________________
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane." -Oscar Wilde

 

>>I can barely believe it, but I've made up my mind to sell my Cooper and purchase a Toyota Matrix. :smile:

 

>>Be sure to contact me when you come out to the PHX area and we can do some mountain hiking. :smile:

Cool man, I already know when I'll be out next : April 2005, for my sister's final art exhibition at ASU! Well, maybe sometime later this year, too. There's something about Phoenix in August that's masochistically compelling!