This argument is giving me gas.

 

Bottle it, and use it at your grill.....

 

my point was twofold - recycling > new and batteries like in a hybrid have their own downfall as has been mentioned

 

+1

 

i was only referring back about driving some pos old civic HF with 40mpg.
why not just get something modern, cool, and still efficient.

that was the point of my post.

 

yeah.....I'm with you. It's just not helping the environment, no matter how fuel efficient it is. I'm a big proponent of reuse/recycle etc. I find it funny when people scoff at my 7 yr old SUV that I paid (not much) cash for, as if I'm more wasteful then them in their brand new $25k shiny Prius

It's the whole disposable mentality that needs to change.

 

Most dealerships are refusing to take in SUVs for trade ins.

 

No...I said I would dump the BMW for the STi... The Mini and the Touareg would stay in the stable. The Touareg is awesome and the Mini cant go anywhere because it has no transmission in it. So that leaves the BMW as the lone wolf on the chopping block..lol

 

it's possible to sequester CO2 from a large producer, like a coal fired plant, you can't do this with cars. The idea is to charge up when the demand is down, at night, when a lot of capacity is idle. If your area has wind or hydro, the energy just isn't captured at all and goes on by, so to speak. Where I live over 20% of the electrical is from hydro. Much cleaner than areas where it comes from coal plants....

But the energy DOES have to come from somewhere, and we produce from limited supplies, or just harvest from whatever.

These energy use issues are much more complex than most people realize....

Matt

 

He's making electricity. And why would it matter if he is returning to the grid? If he is making enough for his power demands, he is saving the power plant from burning fossil fuel to send to him. And no, he has no batteries, you don't use them with solar panels, normally. And why do you say " I would be much more freindly toward your neighbor if it was a windmill"?

 

Great discussion everyone.

I think the pain threshold of gas prices is finally hitting many people, thus the declining popularity of Suburban type SUVs. Of course, if I could afford a Porsche Cayenne Turbo S (not that VW ), I wouldn't be concerned.

The "zero emmisions" rhetoric of electric cars needs to be clarified with where and how the electricty is produced. Having PV panels sounds good, but you would be lucky to get the amount of electricty out of them in their lifetime that it took to manufacture them to begin with. Windmills kill birds. Nickle (for batteries) mines are Superfund sites. Everything has a drawback. Back to horses... oh wait.

 

I've got a 1992 Isuzu Trooper. It has cost me very little in repairs and is extremely reliable. This, too, factors to make it more environmentally responsible than some would like to think. This SUV has been used extensively for back country camping in Mexico and California. It has hauled therapy dogs for several years. It was used heavily for hauling gear when I had a good rock band for another several years. For the last year or two it has been the perfect surf vehicle. Yeah, it is not a commute vehicle, but it is hard to beat for all the other things I've described. Throughout the years it was not pressed into commuter service because I had a variety of motorcycles, economy cars, a BMW model 2002, and in recent years a MINI. I suspect a lot of owners do not use SUVs for what they are really good for. For them, they are expensive. For my use, it is OK and I am not selling.

 

If he is 'making' enough electricity to return it to the grid, he is making more than he uses and if he isn't returning energy to the grid, he isn't making enough for his demands. But as soon as you "plug" that car in, he will not longer be off the grid, either way. And unless he has a revolving array of panels, is power output changes throughout the day.

I would have to ask exactly how much power is he "making"??

And the reason he is not using batteries, is that he is not producing that much. Solar cells produce a trickle of electricity for the most part. Yes, he is making electricity...but it is giving him/her piece of mind more than making an actual difference. Making him/her think he is making a difference.

The windmill comment is directed at the fact that windmills make enough power that they are actually worthwhile to have. A good three meter windmill will normally produce enough power that you can return power to the grid and MAKE money.

 

Obviuosly you havent looked into solar power? I hope to get it soon. My array would probably be 27 panels, producing enough power to run my house and sell back to the grid to make up for the night time. I belive it makes 4725 watts per hour avg. No solar systems use batteries, where are you getting this?

 

Did you just diss my Low-End rebadged Porsche?

 

I don't happen to have a lot of money, but I figure whatever money people have, they ought to be free to spend it however they choose. If someone wants to spend it on an SUV or a Prius, more power to them. Even if I did have the money I would never have bought an SUV in the first place because I don't like big cars. The current price of oil is just forcing some people to re-think their priorities.

 

that all the transportation infrastructure is massively subsidized by the tax payers? Don't we have some input on how it should be used? Because the consiquence of using a motor vehicle are distributed to many people, shouldn't they have some say in the impact of the vehicle choices allowed?

just some things to think about...

Matt

 

Actually, I think that is being done. SUV's and other larger, more expensive cars, usually pay higher sales taxes and registration costs. And because of their lower gas mileage, they pay higher fuel (and therefore fuel tax) costs as well. I suppose governments could limit the size of car (i.e. length, height, width & weight) that manufacturers can build. This could be argued on the basis that such things wear down the infrastructure quicker. But I'm not sure I'd really like to see us go that way. Mainly because whenever government starts making such decisions there always tend to be unintended consequences that then become harder to correct. I prefer allowing market economies to be the factors that force people to order their priorities.

 

I'm considering linking to this thread in the Escalade forums, just for the entertainment value...

 

Oh I.... I didn't think you would check in again.
~don't hog the popcorn~

 

I was hoping for posts with content...

dissapointed again...

Matt

 

dont be sad. have some popcorn!

 

It hasn't been UNsubstantive . . . it's just that this argument always takes the same tone: "____ technology/methodology isn't good enough, therefore I shan't engage until the ultimate, perfect resolution to the problem exists." So far there's been a Debbie Downer for every alternative mentioned. And there's nothing wrong with taking a critical approach here--in theory--or out there--in practice--but at some point everyone's going to have to remember that we're not going to go from a crappy-options situation directly to energy Xanadu. The consumer mindset (as evidenced here) won't allow it. And we're *never* going to get to an option that's blissful for everyone, no matter how many incremental steps we take toward that destination.

So my $.02-worth of relative* paradise:

Allow spent-fuel recycling
hike my taxes
get a bigger nuclear infrastructure in place
let me plug in my car.




*to others, and to present situation.

 

Regular gas is now over 4 bucks per gallon now in Orange County !

 

highest I've paid so far is $4.39.9 for premium. Imagine, ~$60 to fill up a Mini!

Matt