The irritation is warranted, but please don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Some good has come of this thread, and more is yet to come:

• Maven has been working diligently on a viable solution, which sounds like it is close to fruition.
• It has raised the awareness of folks who are considering buying the Nav. I hope many have taken the opportunity to embarrass their MA's with the 'Pep Boys' challenge.

How about we all keep it real & constructive going forward?

 

Oh, yea, I REALLY care what you people, (who obviosuly work in the marketing dept of MINI USA) think??? Get a grip!!

That said, I WAS TOLD THERE IS AN UPDATE. I could caare less if you beleive ME or not. I also could care less if you get it or not. I want it, and I will get it. Beyond that, good luck doing a search in your broken Nav system.

All that said, lets say I was just being a "loud mouth" as you guys say. So what??? Do you think I should just shut up, and go away, and leave the problem alone so it fixes itself?? Yes, I see how well that has worked for the 1st Gen cars, now 5 years old, with the same problem, UNFIXED. Nice work!!! Just keep your mouths shut, don't say anything, it will fix itself. Yeah, that's the ticket. Just let BMW rip you off!!


Should have done my research?? I did do my research, MINI said I could search 6 million POI's, so I bought it. Now I have it, and I can't, and they will FIX IT. They also said the car can do 139MPH. I didn't take a test car on a track and run 139MPH now did I? Niether did I get in a car with NAV (which of course NONE existed at any of the 3 dealers I went to) and search for a Officemax, Staples or J Signs to see if the POI db worked properly. Neither did I test the 4 wheel anti-lock brake system. See, in the United States, when you sell something to somebody, and state that it will perform a certain way, it must perform that way or it's called false advertising.

And that is what we have here, false advertising. Now, when the new update is released, and I get it in my MINI, the problem will be solved. You, are welcome to sit back, keep your mouth shut, and bring the clock back t0 1984 in technology. Have a blast, it was a great year!!

 

I think everyone understands the issue of the inferior -- not broken --- navagation in the MINI. What is causing ire is attitude. Just as the OP alleges not to care what other NAMmers think (then why post at all?), MINI is hardly going to be shaking in its shoes because the OP threatens it WILL FIX anything. If the mafia hitman talk was canned maybe issue would become the point.

 

And I asked simple question - who told you there is an update?
Your response was "Why does that matter?"

Without that information, we are at a distinct disadvantage if we were to go to a dealer and say "Somebody told someone else that something would be created."

Were we able to say "Joe Blankenship at MINI USA said that V30.2 will be distributed on XX/XX/XX, as well as a new data disk 2007-3", we, as well as they, would have something to go on.

If said update was only for the R56, then it would be pointless for those of us with R53s to even raise the question.
THAT is why it matters.

Enjoy the update, and let us know where the nearest Pep Boys is.

 

I was asked not to "blab" where I got the update info from to protect that persons job. I did not receive version #, update # or anything else regardng it. Only that MINI is working on releasing an update to fix several issues with the Nav (and other software related items) as well as a new data dvd. I don't even know what version I have currenlty, don't care. All I know is, it doesn't work, and I want it fixed.

I do not know if it will be for the 1st and 2nd gen cars, as I have had no interest (and didn't even know it was a problem) in the 1st gen until somebody mentioned it here. I will try and find that out. My guess is, it's just for the 2nd Gen, but just a guess.

And I still don't think any of that matters. When I go to my dealer for something to get fixed, I do not quote to he service dept who told me it was broken, or who told me how to get it fixed. I simply ask them to fix it.

Tell them "Birdman" sent ya, does that help?

 

How it matters is this: Many threads have documented differences in knowledge at various dealerships (eg, the secret compartment and transmission noise). Those who don't know will simply say "that's not true" rather than bothering to find out, if you simply say "I heard." However, if they have some info to go on, they may actually be inclined to find out about it. Ultimately, the purpose of OT posts is to help your fellow NAMmers. One way to do it is to provide as much info on the topic as you have.

 

I'm posting it to bring attenton to it. When I said I don't care what other namer's think, I mean in terms of weather they have any "credibility" or not. Who cares? Why would I care whether or not some guy/girl on NAM found "credibility" in whether an update was coming or not? How does that affect anything? it doesn't.

The only credibilty here is, the NAV does not currenlty work properly, period. And yes, it is BROKEN. When data is incorrect, it is BROKEN, trust me, that is what I do for living. Try letting your bank take a zero off the end of your bank accounts balance. Think something is broken now? Thought so. Hey, the software displaying your balance works fine right? Does that mean nothing is broken?

It is broken, hands down, plain and simple. Don't try and minimize that fact.

"Mafia talk"? How do you figure? Lets see, I'm stating I paid alot of money (too much) $2,100 for a product, the product does not perform as advertised, so I will ensure I will get it fixed by the manufacturer. Hmmmmm.... yep, sounds like silly Sopranos talk to me!!

 

[quote=pastabatman;1891070] I hope many have taken the opportunity to embarrass their MA's with the 'Pep Boys' challenge.
quote]

I believe TheOfficeMaven found that Pep Boys only appears three places in the entire data base, and someone had already found the three in searches. Nothing for an MA to be embarrassed about.

 

CC, really?? I would be MORTIFIED if I worked for MINI, BMW or NAVTECH. Absolutely MORTIFIED. Especially if I were in any of there QA dept's (that is, if any of those 3 have a QA dept, I wonder?).

 

It's your attititude, as I said. Do you like to be talked at like you just did? Sort of like, "Look, dufus, you just don't know how to use the nav." I'm not saying I agree with that statement, but it mirrors your attitude with regard to everyone else. And your analogy is flawed. If the bank showed my balance erroneously, then it's system is "broken." If there system requires that I go through many steps to find my balance, it is a bad system, but it isn't broken. Likewise, Mini's window switch isn't "broken" because it is couter-intuitive and doesn't open the way I like it to. The mafia talk?? Oh, that might be represented by your view that because you don't like the way the nav works, Mini IS going to turn its whole production around just to please you.

 

What I find odd is that you have spouted off about being a programmer but have yet to use any programming terminology. I do a little JAVA programming with mapping toolkits and "broken" is not a term I ever use.

Provide us some facts and quit alluding to some "fix". If I walk in and tell the German dealer that "Birdman" sent me they will giggle again.

 

True, that particular issue is apparently due to a deficiency in the Navteq data (someone here mentioned business must pony up to be included, but it must not be universally applied).

But, if I were an MA, and a prospective buyer asked 'innocently' , "So, show me this expensive Nav option. How, for example, would I find the closest Pep Boys?". After fiddling with the damn thing for endless minutes and coming up empty handed, I sure would be red-faced!

There are multiple issues here:

• Lack of 'search all' capabilty.
• Poor POI categorization.
• Incomplete POI data

 

Regarding the "Pep Boys" issue... it seems to me that this is not a technology issue (on BMW/MINI or NavTeq's part), but the fact that NavTeq's business model expects companies to pay to be part of the database.

If Pep Boys wasn't willing to pay, they weren't included in the database... and that isn't BMW/MINI's fault. It isn't really NavTeq's "fault" either, because when they say 6 million POIs, they aren't saying "the entire yellow pages for the whole country". They are saying "6 million public places and companies that were willing to pay us".

If you truly expect the Nav system to have everything that's in the yellow pages, then you should expect a more realistic POI number, like 60 million.

That being said... if you treat the above as one issue, one that you can't hold BMW/MINI/NavTeq at technical nor advertising fault for (it's a business model issue), you can still say there is this other issue:

The Nav system has a very poor POI search function.

 

Maybe MINI just doesn't want us to put Pep Boys parts in our cars.....

 

Conspiracy?

 

I'm sorry, as I fear that I lead the charge towards the non-constructive posts. Since you've identified my post (and those that followed) as such, I'll make this my last post on the Birdman meta-topic.

I think this is part of the problem, not part of the solution. As I've previously stated, I don't think this is a productive manner to bring about the desired change. In fact, were I interested in discrediting NAM's ability (or credibility) to bring about effective change in the future, I think this campaign would be exactly how I'd run things.

I agree that the attitude is part of what I find reprehensible. Even worse, however, is how this campaign will affect the general case as to how MINI responds to future NAM-inspired complaints. The absolute worst part of this campaign is how it is not waged for the benefit of NAM members, but instead intends to leverage NAM members against MINI. The "ask your MA for more information about the upcoming upgrade" campaign was one step too far, in my opinion.

Nor should it affect you one way or the other. Obviously you're comfortable with the persona you've established here on these forums, and even when your methods are identified as counter-productive, you have not backed away from those methodologies. There's no reason, from your perspective, why you should care what fellow NAM users think of your campaign, assuming you can still use those members to accomplish your goals.

As I've repeatedly stated, I do hope that the change you have identified does come to pass: despite the manner in which you've chosen to go about things, not because of it.

~Neal

 

I'm not sure what the point of distributing blame is. Bottom line is, it all goes into a product sold by BMW. They are responsible for what goes into it, and can put pressure on Navtech (or choose another vendor - not sure how much competition there is). Most owners never heard of Navtech, and will only blame BMW. It hurts their product image. Making this clear to MAs might help send the message, since it directly affects their profit.

 

I am disturbed by this payment requirement, if it is true. The nav is supposed to provide us information, not just info on the companies who chose to pay.

 

I do some IT support. 95% of the time a 'broken' PC/program/widget is doing what the user asked it to do, just not what the user wanted it to do.:impatient

As with the Pep Boys example, you can demand the SA 'fix' the Nav so that it finds the Pep Boys down the street until you're blue in the face, but there is nothing the SA can DO short of convincing Pep Boys CFO to pony up $ to NavTeq. (assuming that's what's needed to be included in the POIs)

Its really a matter of efficiency. If you have a copy of a TSB, but for some reason your dealer doesn't, you can demand they fix the problem and go though the littany of 'They all do that'/'Could not reproduce'/etc., or you can give them the TSB and save everyone grief.

You might want to ask your friend why they're reving both the firmware and the data disk when TOM has pointed out that the data disk contains the file structure, not the firmware.

 

Meal,
Simply bringing attention to this issue, publicly on this forum, helps every single NAM'er who has purchased the nav system. How you get from that, that it is "using them" or "hurting them" in any way is beyond me.

Sitting in background and doing nothing, get you nothing. Like it or not, this is the best thread ever, regarding the problem with NAV. Simply put, it is hurting the only place that will make a difference, the bottom line. When they fix the problem, the thread will go away and there bottom line will be helped. It's pretty simple.

Just wait until my new website is up!! Talk about hurting the bottom line.

 

The problem is two fold, the data is horrible and arranged incorrectly. And the OS does not help at all by not offering an "search all" type functionality, or the ability to search for catagories keywords.

The Pepboys is/was a bad example. The LI winery's are a good example of the problem. The wineries are under "BANKING AND SHOPPING". You would NEVER find them unless you searched ALL of the 102 categories, typing in the enitre name of the winery one letter at a time, for each search after selecting a category (becuase it clears the name when you change the catagories. It took my wife over an hour to find one, as we pulled into it's driveway. A search all would have solved that.

MINI states, "we do offer a search by directory function on our nav syste". That is why they initially said they would not fix it. But that is not a "directly based" search. It is a NAME SEARCH. But they force us to search, ah, a DIRECTORY. Kinda catch 22, don't ya think?

It's BROKEN, FIX IT!!!

 

Exactly. It's a two-fold problem. The first one, which is based upon NavTech's business model, is one we can not expect to change. If there are 6 million POIs in there somewhere, then the advertising saying that there are 6 million POIs is indeed accurate and correct. It's not BMW/MINI nor NavTech's fault that some companies such as Pep Boys choose not to pay to be added into their database.

Now, the other problem, the OS/data structure/layout problem with the search function, is indeed one that is addressable.

I don't think we'll ever see a "fix" for problem #1, but hopefully problem #2 can be addressed.

It's important that we stay clear on the fact there are two separate issues here.

 

Edge, your close, but not dead on.

The 1st problem is not whether or not there are 6 million POI's in the db. It's that we can't search and FIND the 6 million POI's in the db in a reasonable way. I'm not complaining as to which 6 million POI's are included either. While it is shamefull that something like PEPboys the largest autoparts outfit is not in there, that is not the real problem (although I agree with Lynn, if in fact only paying companies are listed, that is distrubing).

The real data problem is, the NAVTECH data just sucks. Having a winery fall under Banking and Shopping is just wrong. MINI should MAKE NAVTECH fix that.

Then, MINI should fix it's own problem, the fact the OS doesn't allow a simple name search without regard to a category.

 

I disagree, I think if you read my whole post, I articulated it all exactly.

Look at what I said as problem #2:Note I specifically mentioned the data structure/layout, and the search function. As TheOfficeMaven has determined, it has to do with the way that NavTeq has laid out the data, not including master search options. That is a completely separate issue from "what data is in there in the first place".

The search mechanism is the addressable problem. Problem #2. Problem #1 is due to NavTeq's business model.

 

Birdman, have you filled this out ot report your concerns?

http://mapreporter.navteq.com/dur-we...ER&language=en