When fitting a new head and cam...
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4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
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When fitting a new head and cam...
Hi everyone,
So after doing some reading, seems like I should have done this mod first before all my standard bolt ons. Oh well. Anyways, it seems like this is the way to go for me over the individual throttle body setup. Cheaper, easier to maintain, and more street friendly.
So my questions:
1. When fitting a new head and cam, will it be convenient to fit a new set of forged rods and pistons as well? Kind of like "Since your replacing the transmission, you might as well fit a with a new clutch, flywheel and LSD..." kind of deal?
2. I heard over sized valves have no value to an NA Cooper? Reasons?
3. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but is a forged crankshaft really necessary?
Judging from:
A. HPA's ITB Cooper. They only replaced the rods.
B. This article: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ns_and_cranks/ We have a cast iron crankshaft right?
C. Vendors, for example Mini Mania UK only sells uprated rods and pistons.
My goal is to at least take a 75 to 100 shot in addition to the new head and cam. With a progressive control unit, I think I should be safe.
Next year, this is going to be my Summer/Weekend only car. If I can pull this off, it should be a blast.
Your thoughts are much appreciated!
Thanks!
So after doing some reading, seems like I should have done this mod first before all my standard bolt ons. Oh well. Anyways, it seems like this is the way to go for me over the individual throttle body setup. Cheaper, easier to maintain, and more street friendly.
So my questions:
1. When fitting a new head and cam, will it be convenient to fit a new set of forged rods and pistons as well? Kind of like "Since your replacing the transmission, you might as well fit a with a new clutch, flywheel and LSD..." kind of deal?
2. I heard over sized valves have no value to an NA Cooper? Reasons?
3. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but is a forged crankshaft really necessary?
Judging from:
A. HPA's ITB Cooper. They only replaced the rods.
B. This article: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ns_and_cranks/ We have a cast iron crankshaft right?
C. Vendors, for example Mini Mania UK only sells uprated rods and pistons.
My goal is to at least take a 75 to 100 shot in addition to the new head and cam. With a progressive control unit, I think I should be safe.
Next year, this is going to be my Summer/Weekend only car. If I can pull this off, it should be a blast.
Your thoughts are much appreciated!
Thanks!
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,184
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From: bryan tx
sounds like your cooper is on its way to being a legend eh?
I got to look at the stock coopers crankshaft and its very very very well made. so my guess is it wouldn't be worth it to replace. its not exactly like replacing a tranny where everything is just right there when you pull it apart
however if you do plan to replace the rods and pistons you might as well do it then 
I got to look at the stock coopers crankshaft and its very very very well made. so my guess is it wouldn't be worth it to replace. its not exactly like replacing a tranny where everything is just right there when you pull it apart
however if you do plan to replace the rods and pistons you might as well do it then Hi everyone,
So after doing some reading, seems like I should have done this mod first before all my standard bolt ons. Oh well. Anyways, it seems like this is the way to go for me over the individual throttle body setup. Cheaper, easier to maintain, and more street friendly.
So my questions:
1. When fitting a new head and cam, will it be convenient to fit a new set of forged rods and pistons as well? Kind of like "Since your replacing the transmission, you might as well fit a with a new clutch, flywheel and LSD..." kind of deal?
2. I heard over sized valves have no value to an NA Cooper? Reasons?
3. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I drew to the conclusion, a forged crankshaft isn't necessary...
Judging from:
A. HPA's ITB Cooper. They only replaced the rods.
B. This article: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ns_and_cranks/ We have a cast iron crankshaft right?
C. Vendors, for example Mini Mania UK only sells uprated rods and pistons.
My goal is to at least take a 75 to 100 shot in addition to the new head and cam. With a progressive control unit, I think I should be safe.
Next year, this is going to be my Summer/Weekend only car. If I can pull this off, it should be a blast.
Your thoughts are much appreciated!
Thanks!
So after doing some reading, seems like I should have done this mod first before all my standard bolt ons. Oh well. Anyways, it seems like this is the way to go for me over the individual throttle body setup. Cheaper, easier to maintain, and more street friendly.
So my questions:
1. When fitting a new head and cam, will it be convenient to fit a new set of forged rods and pistons as well? Kind of like "Since your replacing the transmission, you might as well fit a with a new clutch, flywheel and LSD..." kind of deal?
2. I heard over sized valves have no value to an NA Cooper? Reasons?
3. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I drew to the conclusion, a forged crankshaft isn't necessary...
Judging from:
A. HPA's ITB Cooper. They only replaced the rods.
B. This article: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ns_and_cranks/ We have a cast iron crankshaft right?
C. Vendors, for example Mini Mania UK only sells uprated rods and pistons.
My goal is to at least take a 75 to 100 shot in addition to the new head and cam. With a progressive control unit, I think I should be safe.
Next year, this is going to be my Summer/Weekend only car. If I can pull this off, it should be a blast.
Your thoughts are much appreciated!
Thanks!
3rd Gear
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Malvern, PA
Larger exhaust valves do help on a Cooper, they help to get the spent gases out to make way for the fresh stuff. The stock valves are to small and can lead to some of the exhaust gas being trapped in the camber for another cycle.
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4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
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So what is the procedure for replacing the pistons and rods? Do you have to remove the engine? You can't get to it after you remove the head?
I'm trying to keep my budget reasonable, so if I don't actually need the part... why bother? A MCS crankshaft is $1,090 CAD. But if it can safely take a shot over 100 then maybe it's worth it.... I'll think about it... hehehe... For a set of forged piston, rods and bearings I think I'll be looking at $1,500 CAD.
I saw a nice set of pistons here:
http://www.minimaniauk.com/web/Item/.../InvDetail.cfm
I'm trying to keep my budget reasonable, so if I don't actually need the part... why bother? A MCS crankshaft is $1,090 CAD. But if it can safely take a shot over 100 then maybe it's worth it.... I'll think about it... hehehe...
For a set of forged piston, rods and bearings I think I'll be looking at $1,500 CAD.I saw a nice set of pistons here:
http://www.minimaniauk.com/web/Item/.../InvDetail.cfm
sounds like your cooper is on its way to being a legend eh?
I got to look at the stock coopers crankshaft and its very very very well made. so my guess is it wouldn't be worth it to replace. its not exactly like replacing a tranny where everything is just right there when you pull it apart however if you do plan to replace the rods and pistons you might as well do it then
I got to look at the stock coopers crankshaft and its very very very well made. so my guess is it wouldn't be worth it to replace. its not exactly like replacing a tranny where everything is just right there when you pull it apart
however if you do plan to replace the rods and pistons you might as well do it then
Thread Starter
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4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
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The head is off a MCS. Is the MCS valves larger then the Cooper Valves?
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,184
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From: bryan tx
no unfortunatly they are the same. I purchased a cooper s head on ebay a few months back thinking the same thing. now im just waiting till I have the money to P&P it.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
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From: Metro NY
So what is the procedure for replacing the pistons and rods? Do you have to remove the engine? You can't get to it after you remove the head?
I'm trying to keep my budget reasonable, so if I don't actually need the part... why bother? A MCS crankshaft is $1,090 CAD. But if it can safely take a shot over 100 then maybe it's worth it.... I'll think about it... hehehe... For a set of forged piston, rods and bearings I think I'll be looking at $1,500 CAD.
I saw a nice set of pistons here:
http://www.minimaniauk.com/web/Item/.../InvDetail.cfm
I'm trying to keep my budget reasonable, so if I don't actually need the part... why bother? A MCS crankshaft is $1,090 CAD. But if it can safely take a shot over 100 then maybe it's worth it.... I'll think about it... hehehe...
For a set of forged piston, rods and bearings I think I'll be looking at $1,500 CAD.I saw a nice set of pistons here:
http://www.minimaniauk.com/web/Item/.../InvDetail.cfm
When the head is off, just drop the pan and there you are.
If you're going to spend the time and money to do it right a CNCed head with a lightened valve train is the only way to go.
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4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
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Hey Don,
Hows it going buddy! Loving the software!
Well I know it's going to be expensive, but I would like it to be reasonably expensive if theres such a thing?
Me and my mechanic buddy are going to do it together. I'm a newb and he's a pro so I'm hoping to expand my knowledge through this experience.
So drop the pan and the pistons and rods are right there then hey?
What's your position on the cast crankshaft? Is the Cooper crankshaft iron or steel? Is it strong enough for moderate race levels, street use and occasional autoX/track?
Since your here, justintime had a question:
Would you be able to do a remap for an ITB setup? Or do you need a custom ECM?
Hows it going buddy! Loving the software!
Well I know it's going to be expensive, but I would like it to be reasonably expensive if theres such a thing?
Me and my mechanic buddy are going to do it together. I'm a newb and he's a pro so I'm hoping to expand my knowledge through this experience.
So drop the pan and the pistons and rods are right there then hey?
What's your position on the cast crankshaft? Is the Cooper crankshaft iron or steel? Is it strong enough for moderate race levels, street use and occasional autoX/track?
Since your here, justintime had a question:
Would you be able to do a remap for an ITB setup? Or do you need a custom ECM?
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
Likes: 0
From: Metro NY
Hey Don,
Hows it going buddy! Loving the software!
Well I know it's going to be expensive, but I would like it to be reasonably expensive if theres such a thing?
Me and my mechanic buddy are going to do it together. I'm a newb and he's a pro so I'm hoping to expand my knowledge through this experience.
So drop the pan and the pistons and rods are right there then hey?
What's your position on the cast crankshaft? Is the Cooper crankshaft iron or steel? Is it strong enough for moderate race levels, street use and occasional autoX/track?
Since your here, justintime had a question:
Would you be able to do a remap for an ITB setup? Or do you need a custom ECM?
Hows it going buddy! Loving the software!
Well I know it's going to be expensive, but I would like it to be reasonably expensive if theres such a thing?
Me and my mechanic buddy are going to do it together. I'm a newb and he's a pro so I'm hoping to expand my knowledge through this experience.
So drop the pan and the pistons and rods are right there then hey?
What's your position on the cast crankshaft? Is the Cooper crankshaft iron or steel? Is it strong enough for moderate race levels, street use and occasional autoX/track?
Since your here, justintime had a question:
Would you be able to do a remap for an ITB setup? Or do you need a custom ECM?
I think the crank is iron. Whatever it is, from all reports it is rather stout and I do not think I would change it if I were you as to do so cost big dollars. You might consider new bearings and bolts, however. I will be investigating some bottom end stuff this winter but the price will surely be way up there.
I'm a little vague on this: what is ITB?
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4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
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I just re-ringed an engine this afternoon. They are right there!
I think the crank is iron. Whatever it is, from all reports it is rather stout and I do not think I would change it if I were you as to do so cost big dollars. You might consider new bearings and bolts, however. I will be investigating some bottom end stuff this winter but the price will surely be way up there.
I'm a little vague on this: what is ITB?
I think the crank is iron. Whatever it is, from all reports it is rather stout and I do not think I would change it if I were you as to do so cost big dollars. You might consider new bearings and bolts, however. I will be investigating some bottom end stuff this winter but the price will surely be way up there.
I'm a little vague on this: what is ITB?
I was also talking to Paul Webster (2nd fastest Mini in the unofficial MINI 1/4 Mile Time Database) and said he had a cast crank and it made 600 on nitrous (not a Mini), it was the rods that were trying to bend and get out. Nice! Saved myself some doe.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,135
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From: Metro NY
My guess is a custom ecu probably would be required because of air monitoring issues of one intake verses individual intakes. And then you can forget ABS and other things that run through the Mini's ecu. But maybe not: what sensor is in #3 in the photo?
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4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
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Okay back on topic...
So all you really need is new pistons and rods... that's 1500 bucks. jeez, I don't really know what's the big fuss is about heavily modifying a Cooper then. I think this really shows that you really don't need to trade up to an S to go fast. Sure, 02-04 models you'll need a new tranny, but the 05-06 has the new Getrag, so the problem is sloved already. 
Okay so this really clears things up. Thanks everyone for your input.
Randy
Okay so this really clears things up. Thanks everyone for your input.
Randy
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,184
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From: bryan tx
My thoughts exactly =]
So all you really need is new pistons and rods... jeez, I don't really know what's the big fuss is about heavily modifying a Cooper then. Sure, 02-04 models you'll need a new tranny, but the 05-06 has the new Getrag, so the problem is sloved already.
Okay so this really clears things up. Thanks everyone for your input.
Randy
Okay so this really clears things up. Thanks everyone for your input.
Randy
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 664
Likes: 1
Does anyone know how much stress the MC crankshaft can take? Does anyone know of someone breaking one from too much power? I'm concerned because it seems like they changed just what they needed to for the extra power of the S engine, so why would they use a forged shaft if it wasn't needed?
Although I think the tranny would give before the engine internals on the MC.
Although I think the tranny would give before the engine internals on the MC.
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 664
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Back to a question I asked a while ago on a different thread that got no answer...
Does anyone know what is involved in changing from the midlands tranny to the getrag? Is it a simple replacement or are modifications needed? Also, is it possible to put on an S tranny without major mods?
One more...how much stress can the getrag 5spd take? any torque ratings posted?
Does anyone know what is involved in changing from the midlands tranny to the getrag? Is it a simple replacement or are modifications needed? Also, is it possible to put on an S tranny without major mods?
One more...how much stress can the getrag 5spd take? any torque ratings posted?
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 772
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The uncontrollable urge to repair that which is not yet broken is called shipwright's disease.
That said, upgrading parts is highly recommended if you are going to use plenty of nitrous. The MCS engine uses a forged steel crankshaft and rods, instead of the nodular cast iron and powdered metal pieces in the Cooper. It also uses an external oil cooler, a spray oil piston cooling setup and the aforementioned better valves. The MCS pistons are known to not hold up well to liberal nitrous use, so aftermarket is the way to go there.
Because you can select any compression ratio piston, you have to decide now if you'll be wanting to run a turbo.
Good luck!
That said, upgrading parts is highly recommended if you are going to use plenty of nitrous. The MCS engine uses a forged steel crankshaft and rods, instead of the nodular cast iron and powdered metal pieces in the Cooper. It also uses an external oil cooler, a spray oil piston cooling setup and the aforementioned better valves. The MCS pistons are known to not hold up well to liberal nitrous use, so aftermarket is the way to go there.
Because you can select any compression ratio piston, you have to decide now if you'll be wanting to run a turbo.
Good luck!
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4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
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This is what I got when my gearbox gernaded...
http://www.minimaniauk.com/web/Item/.../InvDetail.cfm
Paired with a SPEC stage 2 clutch and lightweight flywheel, transmission feels absolutely solid. I believe the gearing is also a bit closer from the original Midlands design. Increase in acceleration was apparent after this mod. This thing was rebuilt to perform!
http://www.minimaniauk.com/web/Item/.../InvDetail.cfm
Paired with a SPEC stage 2 clutch and lightweight flywheel, transmission feels absolutely solid. I believe the gearing is also a bit closer from the original Midlands design. Increase in acceleration was apparent after this mod. This thing was rebuilt to perform!
Back to a question I asked a while ago on a different thread that got no answer...
Does anyone know what is involved in changing from the midlands tranny to the getrag? Is it a simple replacement or are modifications needed? Also, is it possible to put on an S tranny without major mods?
One more...how much stress can the getrag 5spd take? any torque ratings posted?
Does anyone know what is involved in changing from the midlands tranny to the getrag? Is it a simple replacement or are modifications needed? Also, is it possible to put on an S tranny without major mods?
One more...how much stress can the getrag 5spd take? any torque ratings posted?
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4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
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I think it might hold...
Thanks for your input!
After doing some further investigation, the Ford Mustang, Dodge Hemi and the Subaru WRX all use cast iron cranks.
Cast iron cranks are good for up to 500hp according to this article.
http://www.cryoeng.com/documents/eng...itysecrets.htm
But it seems like even professionals argue over the durability of cast iron cranks.
http://www.automotiverebuilder.com/ar/eb010650.htm
I'm planning to keep the car light and NA, 12:1 compression ratio. Street and occasional track use. With all bolt ons, stage 2 head and a 100 shot, I MIGHT be able to achieve 240-250hp at the crank. After consulting with a few experienced Mini tuners, my power goal isn't considered rediculously high, they also feel the stock crank shall hold in my application.
BUT there is only one way to find out.
After doing some further investigation, the Ford Mustang, Dodge Hemi and the Subaru WRX all use cast iron cranks.
Cast iron cranks are good for up to 500hp according to this article.
http://www.cryoeng.com/documents/eng...itysecrets.htm
But it seems like even professionals argue over the durability of cast iron cranks.
http://www.automotiverebuilder.com/ar/eb010650.htm
I'm planning to keep the car light and NA, 12:1 compression ratio. Street and occasional track use. With all bolt ons, stage 2 head and a 100 shot, I MIGHT be able to achieve 240-250hp at the crank. After consulting with a few experienced Mini tuners, my power goal isn't considered rediculously high, they also feel the stock crank shall hold in my application.
BUT there is only one way to find out.
The uncontrollable urge to repair that which is not yet broken is called shipwright's disease.
That said, upgrading parts is highly recommended if you are going to use plenty of nitrous. The MCS engine uses a forged steel crankshaft and rods, instead of the nodular cast iron and powdered metal pieces in the Cooper. It also uses an external oil cooler, a spray oil piston cooling setup and the aforementioned better valves. The MCS pistons are known to not hold up well to liberal nitrous use, so aftermarket is the way to go there.
Because you can select any compression ratio piston, you have to decide now if you'll be wanting to run a turbo.
Good luck!
That said, upgrading parts is highly recommended if you are going to use plenty of nitrous. The MCS engine uses a forged steel crankshaft and rods, instead of the nodular cast iron and powdered metal pieces in the Cooper. It also uses an external oil cooler, a spray oil piston cooling setup and the aforementioned better valves. The MCS pistons are known to not hold up well to liberal nitrous use, so aftermarket is the way to go there.
Because you can select any compression ratio piston, you have to decide now if you'll be wanting to run a turbo.
Good luck!
Thread Starter
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4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 372
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Found these at Mini Mania UK...
http://www.minimaniauk.com/web/Item/.../InvDetail.cfm
Paired with these...
http://www.carrilloind.com/
http://www.minimaniauk.com/web/Item/.../InvDetail.cfm
Paired with these...
http://www.carrilloind.com/