new thread from the "62" thread...... there are claims of 230 WHP being made without TC or nitrous....or the new "62 SC kit" to which many of us say BS...... I would love to be wrong...... but as I have already said I have every mod I can think of from "reputable" vendors with a custom tune and I don't make that number..... Eric at Helix issued a challenge a while back that if you can make 200 whp on his dyno it's free.... I think one guy has done it.... Peter at M7 has stated that 195 "without a serious tune and a lot of coin" was necessary to break 200 whp.... Randy Webb in the fabled Mule told me that he did a dyno one day at 187 and that 200 was indeed very tough to make..... we consistenly see claims to the contrary..... Onasled, who has the most prepared cars (read $) I have seen is real interested in making power and he is dubious to say the least.... but claims persist.....maybe the rest of us just don't get it but that is a pretty highly experienced group that has this opinion.....what is the magic that we are missing......

 

I figure if I set up my wagon now, I stand to make some big $$$$

 

Well, as I type this I'm looking at two dyno runs, one 215 the other 217, so I guess I didn't make 200. I al so have a run of 256 WHP with the intercooler nitrous chilled. Does that count?

 

Reference: On the Land and Sea dyno I have been utilizing to test exhausts I have found that the stock MCS makes about 135 HP, +/-5.

 

not saying it is impossible ....... the reason I started this was to get this off the "62" thread.... ths has been neat up a lot but apparently not enough and maybe there is something new that needs to be looked at.....

mtrspt...our power is the same....

 

Thanks Don...I was hoping you would chime in.......off to work.... can't wait to see this one develop..... Greg, mine is without butter

 

Hey Spidey, to really do justice to this topic, you're gonna have to do some cutting and pasting of past conversations on the veracity of dyno numbers and the differing results various dynos deliver (for example, Mustang versus Dyno Jet), etc. etc. etc.

I don't think there's any question that there are non-t/c MINI's out there with dynos over 200 whp, since we've seen several posts to that end. I'm interested in understanding the details of those cars and the dynos on which they were tested. I think it was TonyB that posted elsewhere that he never appreciated how small the NAM universe is until he spent time at M7's tent at Monterey. If indeed there are folks delivering the goods in terms of whp, let's dig into the how's and why's, instead of jumping 'em the second they post. Look at it from their perspective - why bother if your integrity immediately gets called into question?

 

I had the following mods on my MCS -

Head/cam
Header/catback
Unichip w/custom tune
15% pulley
JCW airbox/injectors/DME

The highest it ever dyno'd was 211/212 at the wheels. Dyno results varied between 204 and 212 depending on the weather, humidity and the alignment of jupiter......note that this car baselined (pre-mods) at 152.

I have run across many a Mini owner claiming 230 to 240 whp. I have yet to see a dyno for any one of these.

 

I have written about the dubious use of dynos before and still think they are only one tool and not even the most important. When I use the Land and Sea it has a rheostat to control the air temperature over the aftercooler and radiator. I also make sure all the fluids are up to normal operating temperature.
I do not test using the German testing specs; at the clutch, 68 def F, etc. I run it so the IAT is 140 deg F -- these are the conditions I mostly see when at the track. Rigging the dyno to see the highest HP seems like quite a ridiculous exercise to me.

 

What type of dyno were you running on?

 

Just one of those dynojets. Aren't Mustang readings about 3% lower?

 

head, cam, header, exhaust, 19%: 189whp at helix mustang

repeated at Hubie's Dynojet, about two weeks later: got 190.
still at hubie's: added denso plugs, apexi and his fuh-tuning of Apexi: got 199;
two weeks later, added 440 injectors, hubies tweaking got 213, saw there was more to go (maybe another 5), but held back.

ran the car for a year, re-dynoed at helix, got 189.

variables: type of gas (usually sunoco 93), plugs, weather,

 

You couldn't have said it better
All of the vendors claiming it can't be done are not tuners. They develop parts that the ECU was not tuned to. The ECU is the key. This is where the horsepower lies.

 

My Best ever is 192/173 and I have just about every bolt on exept for the head.

17%, Milltek exhaust, Alta CAI, NGK Plugs, MTH, Shrick Race Cam, Megan Header, Random Tech cat, JCW 380cc Injectors, Alta 0% Crank pulley, VGS mod

Back in June:



Mods at the time: 17%, Milltek exhaust, Alta CAI, NGK Plugs, MTH

105F in the dyno area (according to the DynoJet) 60% Humidity.
Octane booster.

Run 1:
182HP / 166TQ

Run 2: (Iced Down Intercooler)
187HP / 168TQ.

Saturday (8/19/2006)



17%, Milltek exhaust, Alta CAI, NGK Plugs, MTH, (Since June's pull added Shrick Race Cam, Megan Header, Random Tech cat, JCW 380cc Injectors, Alta 0% Crank pulley, VGS mod

93 Mobil Gas
95F in the dyno area 77% Humidity
Cheap Box fan sat on top of I/C

Run 1:
188.98HP / 168.72TQ

Run 2: (waited 12 minutes sprayed alcohol on intercooler)
192.58HP / 170.84TQ

Run 3: (Dyno error)

Run 4: (No waiting after dyno error on run 3)
189.06HP / 173.41

I can't wait to go back to the dyno in Clearwater, I have a feeling they are running about 5% higher numbers than they should. As most can see the mods I added after the first dyno day looked to only add 5hp/5lbs/ft tq.

 

A question for DMH, JLM, Onasled, and others - with the importance of manipulating a/f for better performance as a given, how much potential does the area of timing have for our engines? I almost never hear it mentioned, yet we know (I think ) that the factory programming pulls timing around 5-5500 rpm. Would the ability to better tune timing as well as a/f reap big benefits for us?

 

Conventional wisdom would have that leaning out the AFRs with MINIs would improve performance, but it doesn't hold at least when measuring peak hp. In the more than 200 runs we did for GIAC, we searched around quite a while before finding the proper fuelling from idle to redline. The short answer is yes, it does make a difference, but it's not a magic bullet.

The factory programming pulls timing if the intake temps reach about 80 degrees C., and not automatically at 5500rpm. It's IATs that are most critical when dynoing: match road conditions and you are really learning something.

 

so what you are saying is that we all need sprayers of some kind set to spray at a given temp.

 

Well, if you want a max pull number. Keep in mind airflow on the street is better than most any of these systems setup on a dyno...

 

I've seen about a 15% discrepency between these two facilities

Dynojet 253whp
(http://www.mynesperformance.com/shop/)

and

Mustang 212whp
(http://www.mynesperformance.com/shop/)

 

On a Land & Sea dyno, run by a qualified Unichip tuner - and after 3 separate tuning sessions to get the Unichip corrected from the mess it was in on original delivery - the Land & Sea dyno showed 185 whp on my MCS, with the following engine mods:

Alta CAI with box top, double insulated on all sides
15% pulley
3% lightweight crank pulley
m7 dfic
m7/Cosworth head
Schrick cam
400cc injectors
IK-22 plugs
ceramic coated header
Milltek exhaust

My previous MCS with many mods (no head, but a lot of other mods, plus a 19% pulley) showed 196 whp on a DynoJet.

So I agree that the +200 whp number is hard to beat, unless some really serious change is dropped (which my wife would say has already been done). Even so, I'm not convinced that any really significant +200whp improvements can be achieved short of nitrous, or a different form of forced induction.

 

Eric, I want to personally thank you for taking the time to post here because I use you as a reference alot on this subject and respect your knowledge.......

I also want to thank JLM as I know you have spent a lot of time and money with this engine and I have always respected your opinion

FWIW..... these guys (unklike me) only post when they have something important to contribute

 

I too have heard this as well, when I was into the v8 scene, people seemed to avoid the Mustang dyno for anything other than tuning only.

 

BBR MINI COOPER S PHASE 4 275
The BBR Phase Four conversion is a full package of engine, transmission, suspension, brake and tyre modifications. This is the flagship of our supercharger conversions aimed at those who prefer the driving characteristics of a supercharger over a turbo. This is the ultimate supercharged MINI, which will shock even the most expensive super cars and give them a run for their money! be warned this is serious motoring! Which is guaranteed to put a permanent smile on your face!
Engine Specification

• BBR Big valve, gas flowed and ported Cylinder head fitted with BBR camshaft
• BBR Solid tappet and uprated valve spring assembly
• BBR modified high mass air flow supercharger assembly (we ditch the original supercharger)
• BBR modified high flow fuel system and injectors
• BBR auxiliary high flow water pump assy. and redesigned coolant system
• BBR fixed tension belt drive assembly
• BBR high flow twin intercooler assembly
• BBR S/S exhaust system
• BBR Ram Induction Bonnet Air Inlet Venturi kit
• and of course BBR custom mapped software

It's unclear if they use the same supercharger though... rumour has it that they swap up to the M62... either way, 275 at the crank has to be around 230-250 at the wheels.?

Rm2k5

 

How much timing advance you can hold is very important. Use the highest ocatne you can to prevent detonation and get the best aftercooler you can to lower IATs.

 

Didn't see that you had recreated a new thread for this discussion, so i'll repost my reply in the M62 discussion here.
______________________________________________

Tracked down a copy of my final dyno results from back last year.



From what I can tell, baseline dyno results are varying greatly. I've seen anything from 135 whp stock to 160 whp stock. 25 HP variance is huge! I can only assume that some of these cars are more receptive to mods than others :-\.

If you're not sure what a Mini Madness Stage 4 kit includes, check my gallery. The car also had a custom fabricated exhaust, which although I don't know much about it, it was ridiculously loud, and the tuning shop managed to get quite a bit of HP out of the engine just with the exhaust.