Well I have been working on a way to chill my intercooler now for a couple of days. What I did is took a NOS Cheater kit for a carburated motor that I had sitting around and put the carb plate under the intercooler with the spary bars pointing up into the intercooler. I am going to hook it up to a switch inside the car so that I can leave it on the entire time it takes me to make a pass. I have talked to Nitrous Express and they have a similar kit that they said on a Civic Si(Turbo) picked up 50 horse just from spraying the intercooler. I have pics should be able to get them in the next couple of days. The only snag that I have run into is the bottle. My local gas supplier won't fill my Nitrous bottle with CO2 I don't want to use nitrous as it is twice the price of CO2. I think I can switch the valve though so I can use CO2. I want to use the NOS bottle as it is way cooler than a plain jane CO2 bottle. But if you want to use nitrous don't worry about it exploding it won't it is non-flammable. Jeez I wish people wouldn't start rumors like that. Friends of mine with twin turbo mustangs actually spray their turbos with nitrous(no budget damn them) and have never had any problems. If it was flammable it would say it on the bottle and in the perodic table of elements. Well I will keep you updated with my project. It is hard to find time as it is getting close to race season and the two alcohol dragsters that I work on keep me pretty busy Randy please tell me what you think about this way of cooling do you think that I will get the air so cold and dense that the stock ignition won't have enough spark to ignite the charge?? Just a thought let me know!! Thanks..Justin Nawrocki Street Machines Car Club Fort Wayne, Indiana

 

Here is a long discussion on NO2 and CO2 for use with intercooler cooling. Naked Intercooler Thread

Good luck and try not to get in the Darwin Award club.

 

I don't think you will run into any problems with the spark, as we have had outside temps in the teens - so from there the intercooler is dropping intake temps and the spark is fine.

It sounds like a reasonable way to cool the intercooler. I know Alta has been working on a water mister for the intercooler as well. The issue with all of these methods isn't that they don't work, it's that they are limited (either by the bottle volume or the water tank capacity). That makes it a little tough to use on the track. If that isn't a concern for the user, I say go for it.

Hope that helps!

 

Randy,
With CO2 under the hood, would it not be possible that it could get sucked into the intake and decrease power considerably?

As far as NO2, should it be said to BE CAREFUL with it?

 

>>Randy,
>>With CO2 under the hood, would it not be possible that it could get sucked into the intake and decrease power considerably?
>>
>>As far as NO2, should it be said to BE CAREFUL with it?

The CO2 is a great point that I hadn't considered (it must be the hours I've been keeping lately .

Randy

 

Thanks Randy will keep you updated on progress as it happens.

 

>>You should always be careful with anything you are doing with a car. That said, I have seen a few ricers (not that there's anything wrong with that) use NO2 for external cooling applications without any problems arising. I will have to check with a chemical engineer to find out what the true properties of NO2 are, and just how high the risk is.
>>


Well, I'm not a chemical engineer but I'll play one in the forums if you like. (I do have a degree in physics with some chemistry and such thrown in but that was years ago.)

NO2 is an oxidizer. It can't burn by itself but it could help something burn or you could start a fire with it if it gets in high enough concentrations near something that could act as a fuel that is hot enough.

If it goes in the intake, it should give you some performance boost, just like if you injected it directly. I would expect that if some gets in the the O2 sensor would detect the rise in free oxygen and add fuel until it is consumed. Whether any of that would constitute a danger to the engine would depend on the concentrations, I doubt that enough would leak into the intake to cause a problem.

As to CO2, it is basically inert, it's already burnt stuff. Any leaking into the intake would cause a decrease in power. Now, to think through what that would do the the electronics on emissions and the like ...

The O2 sensor can't detect fuel or CO2 but I would guess that the oxygen levels would drop if you put some CO2 into the incoming air mixtures. When the O2 levels drop the engine would decrease the amount of fuel into the engine to bring those in line with the set standard. That would decrease your power but shouldn't damage anything.

As to the amounts, it is unlikely that there would be significant amounts of CO2 getting into the intake to cause any real problems. If one were to add a sealed intake, especially one with a cold air source through the hood or some such, there should be no problem at all.

One question I might have, would it be possible to use the air conditioning to cool the intercooler adequately to overcome the load of the air conditioner itself? On the surface, it seems to me that this wouldn't be possible since the engine has to run the air conditioning which cools the fuel going into the engine, but I haven't worked through any theories or numbers.

Keith Hamburger

 

No That wouldn't work. The best way to produce more power with your AC is to turn it off. :smile:

 

What I was wondering whether you could use the air conditioning to cool the intercooler enough to increase the fuel charge to the cylinders to offset the burden of the AC. I think that violates the laws of thermodynamics, though. It is hard to tell, however, as we're not talking about a closed system here, energy comes in through the fuel lines and ???

Keith

 

>>Good luck and try not to get in the Darwin Award club.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Previously posted in the Naked intercooler forum

I was pretty sure N2O was not explosive so I tried a little experiment. I went back to my freshman Chemistry class and some flammable/non flammable gas testing we did.

I just happen to have a ZEX nitrous kit in my garage that was on my old RX7, the bottle is half full so I decided to try the baloon trick. Filled a baloon with 100% N2O attached it to a broom handle and held it over a candle and guess what?
the baloon popped and subsequently blew out the candle. No bang No Boom No Darwin Award.

From my College Chemistry class I know that Pure O2 will cause a serious popping sound but no flaming. Without fuel even pure 02 is uninspiring.

On the other hand, however, I also have an Oxy/Acetline Welder at my place of work. I filled a baloon with 50/50 Acetlyne/02...BOOOOOOM big boom as well as a nice fire ball. I assume a similar situation, however slightly lessened by only having 1/3 oxygen from N2O.

The only way Nitrous will blow off your bonnet is if somehow you backfire up through the intake with some fuel, or have excess gasoline fumes under the hood as well as a spark to ignite it. The spectactular Nitrous explosions you see at the drag strip on big block Pro Streeters, are caused by the huge amounts of unburned fuel that is being blown by carbuerator as well as the giant overlapping cams that allow a bit of flame to be present in the intake. Not gonna happen on a MCS, the supercharger should ensure that your manifold is positively charged thus preventing any back flow of fuel and flame. Inject Nitrous under the hood all you want and hopefully your intake will suck a little bit in too. Cold air + a little extra oxygen = fun.

You can build an high performance intercooler chiller with a bottle of Nitrous, a selenoid, and hoop from Sears designed for a BBQ. Build a bracket to mount the sprayer over your intercooler plumb as needed. I know a few WRX guys who have done this and seen .5 second quicker times in the 1/4. Their cars are just fine even with EGT's reaching 1600 degrees.

I think that Nitrous Epress (NX) would not be marketing the heck out of their intercooler sprayers if N2O was a combustable danger. There is a huge difference between an Oxidizer and a Combustable Gas. Those that feel that nitrous is so dangerous have not used it and don't understand how it works.

 

This thread has me confused, is it N2O or NO2?

 

Nitrous Oxide=two parts Nitrogen one part Oxygen, N20

 

>>Nitrous Oxide=two parts Nitrogen one part Oxygen, N20

Makes me think what we should really be looking at and using is NO, nitric oxide. From my CRC handbook it shows that it has a higher heat of formation (which means more energy released from breaking it down in the engine) and it obviously has more oxygen available to burn the respective fuel.

You should be able to get more boost with less gas.

As to cooling the intercooler, a better option might be to have an openable pressure bottle. Pour liquid nitrogen into the bottle (quite cheap), seal it and allow the bottle to reach room temperature. Once you've done that you simply allow it to pass through the appropriate valve, expand to ambient pressure which will drop the temp and run it over your intercooler.

Better than simply spraying the cold gas through the intercooler would be to wrap copper tubing around all of the parts you want to be cooled with some thermo conductive grease. You could put a few wraps around your intake to prevent heat soak, some wraps around the inlet and outlet of the intercooler and then allow the gas to blow through the intercooler after that.

For maximum performance you would also want your exhaust to be as cool as possible, put a few wraps around the exaust manifold.

Keith

 

The only thing I can think to add would be that you should mount the sprayer in front of the intercooler instead of behind. At high speeds with the sprayer behind the intercooler the CO2 or N2O might not fully saturate the intercooler because it will be pushed back by the incoming air.

 

Keith - Excellent point.

Nitrogen would be an excellent choice and wouldn't create an explosion. Wouldn't mess with the intake really either since what we breath is 71% N anyway.

And yes, place it in the front so it can run across. That would be relatively easy to do with a switch inside, small bottle of N to cool. Not a bad idea. Wonder if it would really make a difference though?

Does anyone know what the difference in HP gain is for an intercooler cooled at 70°F verses cooled to below zero?

That would be a good DYNO test. While on the DYNO, place a block of dry ice on the intercooler and open the hood so the intake can take fresh air?

Randy, can you do this this weekend? You are Dynoing right???

 

The old rule of thumb I always heard for power versus temperature was this.

For every 10 degrees F that you can cool the intake charge the motor makes 1 percent more horsepower.

This is a rule of thumb so it is not absolute and I don't know how well it holds when you get to really cold temperatures.

 

>>What I was wondering whether you could use the air conditioning to cool the intercooler enough to increase the fuel charge to the cylinders to offset the burden of the AC. I think that violates the laws of thermodynamics, though. It is hard to tell, however, as we're not talking about a closed system here, energy comes in through the fuel lines and ???
>>
>>Keith

You can use the AC for cooling of a charged air chiller. Normally found in water to air intercooling though. See: http://www.coolflow.com/

 

>>You can use the AC for cooling of a charged air chiller. Normally found in water to air intercooling though. See: http://www.coolflow.com/
>>
>>

Actually, that makes sense, the water would have adequate thermal mass that it can carry over the cooling and you can (and most modern cars do) switch of the AC compressor under hard acceleration. You can have the AC working to cool the water and then, when you need the power, shut it off and jump.

Keith

 

I'm not sure i'm following you. You generally want you keep you exhaust heat in your exhaust. Its keeps your exhaust velocity up and decreases pumping losses.

--
Cheese



>>For maximum performance you would also want your exhaust to be as cool as possible, put a few wraps around the exaust manifold.
>>
>>Keith
>>
>>

 

The wrap keeps the heat within the exhaust and not in the engine compartment. Having done this on my last car, I can vouch that this stuff works well. It significantly reduces underhood temps.

>>I'm not sure i'm following you. You generally want you keep you exhaust heat in your exhaust. Its keeps your exhaust velocity up and decreases pumping losses.
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>
>>
>>
>>>>For maximum performance you would also want your exhaust to be as cool as possible, put a few wraps around the exaust manifold.
>>>>
>>>>Keith
>>>>
>>>>
>>

 

maybe I read it wrong but keith was referring to wrapping the exhaust manifold with some sort of chilled liquid filled tube. Thats not really a good idea.

High temp exhaust wraps do work. They form a heat barrier around the manifold, keeping the exhaust hot, not cold (but keep the engine compartment cooler). Be careful with long term use because they also collect moisture which can lead to yucky situation underneath.


--
Cheese

 

>>I'm not sure i'm following you. You generally want you keep you exhaust heat in your exhaust. Its keeps your exhaust velocity up and decreases pumping losses.
>>
>>--
Basically, for a Carnot cycle heat engine (which is basically what IC is) you want as little energy leaving as possible. By cooling your exhaust you increase the mass flow out. Perhaps wouldn't work in practice but that's the way it should be in theory. (or so I remember from my edumacation some 15+ years ago).

Keith

 

>>>>I'm not sure i'm following you. You generally want you keep you exhaust heat in your exhaust. Its keeps your exhaust velocity up and decreases pumping losses.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>Basically, for a Carnot cycle heat engine (which is basically what IC is) you want as little energy leaving as possible. By cooling your exhaust you increase the mass flow out. Perhaps wouldn't work in practice but that's the way it should be in theory. (or so I remember from my edumacation some 15+ years ago).

Once the gass leaves the combustion chamber, it's already been cycled, and the heat energy has already been lost.

It seems to me that chilling your exhuast plumbing would have no more effect than hooking a tube up to your exhaust tip and routing it into a refrigerator.

 

Keith,
By cooling the exhaust, you're absorbing energy (which is what heat is) into the cooling fluid. This is energy that was keeping the density of the exhaust gas down and the velocity of the exhaust gas up. Now you have a slower, denser exhaust, which is harder to push out.

--
Cheese

 

Exhaust wraps bad but the new ceramic coatings that they have been developed are good.


The problem with the wraps is that they only keep the heat in on one side of the exhaust. This can cause the exhaust system to disentigrate from the heat that is trapped in the metal and cannot be radiated out.

The cermanic coatings go on both sides of the header so that the metal is insulated on both sides. The heat stays in the exhaust gas and out of the exhaust systems which promotes good exhaust flow and lower underhood temps.

Car Craft did an experiment a few months ago on a dyno with a big block chevy. They ran it first with plain non-coated headers and then again with fully cermaic coated ones form jet hot.

The motor only made 2-3 more hp with the coated header but the surface temp of the header was 300 some degrees F less then the non-coated header.

The HP increase would be much more dramatic on a car where there the air flow is more restricted then an engine dyno.