Been working on this for a couple months and am finally done! Sounds great, is very stealth and maintains most of the boot space.

Equipment:

Nakamichi CD400 head unit
JL Audio 250/1 subwoofer amp
JL Audio 300/2 main amp
Dynaudio 240GT component front speakers
Dynaudio passive crossover networks
Resonant Engineering 10" subwoofer in a sealed enclosure
AudioControl Equalizer
AudioControl Bass Processor
Zapco and Streetwire Interconnects
PAC steering wheel control IR adapter

I've attached a couple pictures, but I have lots of pics at http://homepage.mac.com/foko1/PhotoAlbum19.html

 

:smile:

http://homepage.mac.com/foko1/PhotoAlbum19.html

Oh, and nice installation!

BTW, saw you have an engine for sale. Was it for the radical that you listed as sold?

 

That looks great!

 

Thanks meanboy....I edited the link to fix it.

 

Looks great!

What did you make the enclosure from? Plywood? Got pics of the underside?

See you on hwy 17

 

that looks really nice ! i WOULD LIKE TO SEE HOW YOU DID IT, i WAS THINKING TO DO SOMETHING SIMILAR. HAT IS THE LAST THING i NEED to do to finish my system ( sorry for the caps oops )


Pioneer avic-n1
infinity reference 6 chanel
infinity kappa's 6.5 in th edoors and 6x9's in the rear panels.
10" infinity kappa perfect sub

Sounds pretty killer ! and the way you did the boot would top it all off.

 

Yeah, that was the spare motor for the Radical....it's also sold, I need to clear those off the site.

 

The encolosure is made of 5/8" MDF with multiple reinforcements. The bottom of the cabinet is essentially flat except for some contours to fit into the recess better. The amp rack and enclosure lift out for access to the battery. The final volume of the enclosure was just under .5 cu. ft., which is a little small for the RE driver, but it's as big as i could make it and still fit the way it does.

 

Clean install!

It would be nice to see a trim piece around the right side storage where your EQL is to clean up what's hidden by the stock panel.

 

Not sure exactly what you mean, but I think you mean leaving off the stock covers and using a trim ring around the components to finish it. That would certainly look nice, but is not as stealthy as having them completely covered. Since they really don't get adjusted once the system is tuned, access is not really and issue.

I was thinking about some things I would do differently if I were doing it again, and some things I will still work on when I have time:


1. Woofer enclosure should be a bit larger. This would require moving the amps to a different location. There's not a lot of choices though regarding stealth locations. I would have loved to have a flush woofer grill, however, the woofer had to be mounted on top of the enclosure baffle due to mounting depth limitations. As it is I had to choose my driver based almost completely on mounting depth specifications.

2. Given the limitations, the woofer sounds remarkably good. There was a pretty significant peak centered around 70hz which eq'd out. It rolls off to about -2db at 40hz and -6 at 30 hz. This is probably due to the inherent characteristics of the woofer and enclosure, but also somewhat to the infrasonic filter built in to the epicenter. The filter is at 30hz but I assume it works like crossver with a sttep slope. So ther is probably some effect of the filter above 30. Need to talk to audiocontrol about this. I'd like to lower that filter to 25hz but it needs to be done internally and I haven't had the chance yet.

3. For simplicity and stealth I used the stock tweet and mid placements. This is clearly a bad sonic choice. The image is poor and there's probably some phase incoherence due to the distance between the tweeters and mids.

4. There's a weird mid/high peak around 2K hz that I'm having difficulty eq ing out(phase issue?) I think a 1/3 octave eq may be necessary. I really like the new digital eq's from audiocontrol, but any one that physically fits would work. I may change the tweeter position first though, since that may remedy several things at once.

Maybe the tweeters in kickpanels and the mids in the stock location. A second set of tweets in the stock location, attenuated down, maybe -3 db, would help raise the rainbow effect if its dramatic

5. The system was terribly noisy initially(alternator whine). I spent a lot of time tracking this down and finally got some help from a pro installer. Despite common grounds and multiple other tricks, the symbilink interconnect system between the head unit and 1st processor did the trick. Next time I will go to this sooner. It is VERY quiet now.

6. There's all kind of neat things that could be done esthetically. The MINI begs for this kind of stuff so I may do some more interesting things with colored vinyl/leather/carpet. Time is my limiting factor though and I still want it to be relatively stealth.

7. More damping in the doors as well as throughout the car.

Fabian

 

Hello,

I was wondering if I were to do a whole false bottom floor as a sub enclosure how many cubic feet do u think it would work out to? Also I was wondering if you could give me your blueprints for the enclosure .
Thanks,
Jm

 

I want to do a false bottom just to hide things but really, I want to level off the back when the seats are folded down, that way large boxes aren't teetering and knocking my hatch every time I accel/brake

 

Well, I used up about 2/3 of the boot floor area with my enclosure and it ended up being just about 0.5 cu. ft. If you used the other 1/3 you'd probably get another .25 cu. ft or so. I think that actually would be a perfect sealed enclosure for most 10's.....around .75 cu. ft. Remember one of the limitations however, is that the enclosure ended up being quite shallow. I chose the RE driver because it had the least mounting depth requirement of all the SQ woofers i was considering. If you were willing to make the enclosure even one inch deeper, many more driver options could be considered. However, then the enclosure would be taller than the hatch sill. It's all a compromise

I'd be happy to share the blueprint, but I didn't make one. I just started building the enclosure one piece at a time, starting with the bottom, and custom fitting each piece by trial and error. When all the parts seemed right, I constructed the cabinet on the bench, put in the hardware and driver, and carpeted it.

 

Well thanks anyways, would you happen to know the mounting depth? I have purchased a JL Audio 10W7... BUT it seems like your saying it wont fit properly, because of its large depth.
Thanks,
Jm

PS... Where did you get that carpet that matched the interior so well?

 

there's no way a 10w7 would fit. that is an excellent woofer, but it won't work for this kind of install. the depth inside the enclosure is around 5.5 in if i recall.

i bought the carpet from www.partsexpress.com
the carpet matches better in the pictures than in person though.

fabian

 

Dynaudio makes awesome sounding speakers. They actually won't come into their own until you get a few hundred hours on them but boy do they sound smooth.

 

Great install. It's very similar to what I've always wanted to do.

Balanced line drivers are great for quieting the noise. I've used a couple of different types/brands. I'm currently using the Zapco Symbilink which works best with their amps. The stand-alone components are great too but you don't get their full benefits of end to end coverage and their expensive since you have to buy their power supplies to make them work. The Audio Control pieces have built-in balanced line I/O and thus make it easy if you're using their components. Phoenix Gold had a few relatively well priced line drivers but they're designed for use with PG amps. I've also used Rane home components in the car and it worked well except for the size (19" wide).

I haven't seen many discusions on NAM about alternative speaker mounting locations. The stock locations have several flaws. To begin with, the passengers are very close to the doors (the arm rest is INSIDE the door) which puts the listeners further off axis. Then the mounts point the speakers across the car instead of at the listeners. Lastly, the speakers are too far apart. Frequencies from ~750 Hz on down will obviously come from the bottom of the door and pull the stage down.

Off axis will also pull the stage down because of phasing issues. The volume level is also decreased the further off axis you are. If the xover was designed for on-axis listening, the mid will no be loud enough. And considering the tweeter is sooooo much closer to the ear, it's a wonder the mid is heard at all.

I've used a few different speaker locations in different cars. In my 99 Integra, kickpanels are great. You sit low and the dash is a fair distance away. It's easy to get a free path to all ears. In my 95 Golf, you sat too up right, the knee bolster is in your lap, and the center console blocks the cross path. KPs don't work. The Mini is the same (not to mention there is very little KP room). So in the VW, I tried something unique that relied on the reflective properties of the windshield. The mid was located on the floor, next to the center "transmission" hump, and pointed up to the sides of the windshield. The tweeter was mounted on the door close the to shoulder of the front passengers but a little forward. These were pointed forward of the driver onto the lower center of the windshield. This was not my idea but worked well when you ignored the unique positions although the sweet spot was fairly small. This wouldn't work well in the Mini because the roof extends forward too far to be "visible" to the mid on the floor and mounting the tweeter requires quite a bit of panel maniputlation. The next install in the VW was similar to an install that I had in a 95 S-10, the tweeter and mid mounted on the dash. In the S-10, the location was a 4x6 where I mounted the mid and tweet from a MBQuart 3-way (328) with the 6.5 in the lower door. In the VW, I used a "homemade" 3-way with a Vifa 4" with a 28mm soft dome and CF 5.25 (xover was from Madisound.)

The Mini is prime for a dash-type install. I have a Dynaudio 340 system (left over from another install) to try this. My concern is the 700Hz xover point between the dome mid and the midwoofer. There are a number of smallish mids, Audax HP100Z0 for example, that would yield lower xover points but they would require custom xovers and enclosures (the Dynaudio dome mid is self contained.) If I were willing to cut some plastic, I would mount them pointing up. The curve and slant of the windshield is great for creating a soundstage image. But I'm going to play a little before committing to a location.

Ranking these ideas for the Mini really depends on the amount of effort someone wants to apply. Obviously, I think the dash install has the greatest potential and requires only a small amount of effort. I think the next best location would actually be mounting the tweeter by the mid on the door, and creating an angled mount for both. Boston Acoustics has a "co-axial" mounting system for the tweter that would work well. Lastly, I'd stick with stock positions over KPs or something else, that's without a get deal of modifications.

 

dwc....

i think your ideas for dash mounted drivers may be on the mark. there seems to be room in that plasic panel right under the windshield that could house a mid dome and tweeter. have you (or anyone looked under that panel to see how much room there is?

if i recall, morel makes a self contained mid-dome kinka like the the dyn. not sure though.

do you think 700hz is the magic cutoff point to prevent dropping the edges of the sound stage? if thats the case, then i could see keeping the dyn 6.5 in the door, crossing it over to a mid-dome under the windshield at about 700hz, then up to about 1-2Khz x over point to a tweet right next to the dome. aiming and positioning of the windshield drivers would probably need a lot of experimentation. would there be a phasing issue between the mid bass driver in the door and the mid dome and tweet up high?

theres a very good discussion about using windshield reflections to develop the soundstage at http://forum.elitecaraudio.com/showt...threadid=96808

i once did kickpanel tweeters and low front door mid drivers in a toyota truck that had a fairly upright seating position and lots of obstruction to crossfiring. i found that despite these limitations the imaging was far better than all other standard locations. there was a fairly pronounce rainbow effect, and the soundstage width was limited, but the image was nicely centered and there were no glaring phase problems. however, the truck cab was wider than the MINI, so path lengths were probably closer to ideal than could be done in the MINI.

i may still try the KP tweeters as a temporary, just to see how it sounds. right now, i'm enjoying the system cuz its SOOOOO superior to what was in the car before. i'm sure, i'll soon be looking for ways to improve it though.

fabian

 

you must have had alot of money to put that system together, those dyna's are damn expensive. are you running 6x9's in the back seat at all? I dont think you listed them if you did.
Jm

 

actually, you'd be surprised at how little it cost, especially when you consider how bad the HK OEM system sounds and how much it costs. i'm constantly amazed at the deals you can find if you take your time and research things. it took me about 2 months of shopping various online outlet, ebay, etc to get all the gear together. its true that the retail on the dynaudio front speaker set is something like 7-800 bucks, but i found them barely used on ebay after waiting and looking for a month for less than half that. if you are gonna spend money on your system, the front speakers really should get the bulk of your funds.....they give you the most improvement for your buck.

the other thing is that a high end installer charges at least $80 per hour. i probably spent 40 hours on the install (i'm kinda slow compared to a pro) but you get the idea. lots of money saved if you do most of it yourself. i usually enjoy mechanical/electrical/electronic work, so no biggie for me....just finding the time is the issue.

finally, to answer the rear speaker question.....no, i'm not using any.

fabian

 

I just had the knee bolster off this weekend to install the alarm and was amazed at the emptiness. When you figure the parcel tray fits under there, it makes sense. I didn't expressly explore the speaker mounting options but on other cars, it's fairly open in the corners. BTW, the knee bolster has push pins in the upper left and right corner and hinged at the bottom, incase you want to look yourself. It would be easy to make a downward firing subwoofer enclosure for this location. :smile:

Yep, the MDM55. Madisound sells it for $73. I've used Morel components in home speakers (MDT40 & MW164 two-way) and I swear by them. Construction is very similar to Dynaudio but with an emphesis on natural rather that butally accurate sound. I run the MW164 without a xover and the MDT40 with a first-order high pass filter. The listening is fatique free. The 55 has an operating range of 1k-6k and has a sensitivity that would match most any tweeter. The Fs is 350Hz implying that it could be xover lower and EQ'd up but only if you're using an active xover (bi-amp) with a 3rd or 4th order slope.

There's nothing magic about 700Hz. The xover and the components blend to create the characteristics of volume and phase. And then locate-ability varies from person to person. Generally speaking, a person will begin to be able to point to the source of the sound of tones (note I didn't say music) from 250 Hz upto 500 Hz. Subwoofers are xover anywhere from 80-120 Hz because a 2nd order low-pass filter will yield -12db at twice those frequencies. Sony has proven, with MD, that the average human can only discern down to -20db. Given that, a subwoofer with a 2nd-order xover at 100Hz will still be heard at something a little less than 400Hz, yet it still isn't locateable. There's more to be said on subs and xovers but I'll leave that for a different thread.

If you can use a first-order slope (6db/octave) on the mid and a 3rd-order low pass on the woofer, you'll allow the mid to keep the stage up and the woofer will not drag it down (since the -18db frequency will be 2x the xover frequency.) Note with the MDM55, you'll need to use cascaded xovers on the mid, first order at 1000 and 3rd order at 500Hz to ensure the excursion on Fs is controlled.

I'll see if I can play in the coming weeks to see how the stock Dyns play out sitting on the dash.

I didn't read this because I'm too lazy to register. My understanding is that reflections smear the image and confuse the stage when the direct path and the reflection are different lengths. But the direct path has to be less then 60 degree off-axis. If the speakers are mounted flat in the dash, the listeners should be ~80 degrees off axis and shouldn't have a confused image. I'm willing to accept some smear if the music appears to be coming from the front.

Distance from the KPs is critical. Some of the best KP sound I've heard was within GM F-Body cars. But than legs are kept low and the best sound is achieved by aiming up at the ceiling in front of the listeners. The Mini may turn out to be a good KP car since there is some free space in center console pillar. I bet the best sound will be achieved by aiming at the forward edge of the sunroof.Over all, KPs work because it limits the off-axis angles. But the best install I've ever heard was with a dash install. Granted the speakers were motorized to rise out of the dash, and pointed directly at the listens, but boy did it sound great.

Since I use my dead pedal while autoxing, I won't consider the KP install. But the only true way to see if it'll work is to try it.

Enjoy your tunes.

 

Awesome install.

 

To Foko,
Yeah I know about all that stuff as I bought my whole system off Ebay ... SO MUCH MONEY SAVED! Thats all I have to say, and it was all BRAND NEW not a scratch on them.

My System = Pioneer DEH-P7600MP Headunit (Only 2.2v preouts, but it looks cool )
JL 500/1
JL 10W7
Boston Acoustics RC620 Rally Series 6.5's and Tweeters
Boston Acoustics SL95 6x9's
Zapco Reference 360/4

Saved atleast $1000.00 US

Jm


PS. If anyone has any ideas on the placement of the W7 it would be very greatly appreciated... I will be building a custom box for it to maximize truck usability. I was thinking maybe moving the battery out of the battery area and maybe slipping it right in there

 

EBAY RULES!!!

 

Great discussion,

Foko nice work on your install.

I have a couple of thoughts. If one wanted to use a bigger sub in the rear you could proabably use the battery box to recess part of the driver. I don't know what this would do to the response of the driver but it's a thought. This would allow the floor to be flush like foko's but with the ability to use a bigger driver. If you were to use foko's driver size you'd gain more trunk space. What to do with the battery though? Two possible options, 1) substitute the regular battery with a smaller one, I know there are a bunch of people using a smaller battery to help reduce weight (too lazy to look up the thread for the specifics). Option 2) Relocate the battery to the front. A lot of people are going the HAI route (search for Hot Air Intake) thus removing all the old airbox/plastic/filter etc. This will give you plenty of space to mount the battery, plus the cables already run to this location. You could use a smaller battery to conserve added frontal weight. What do you think?

DancesWithCones: When you say tweeter dash mount location, I'm having trouble visualizing where you mean. Are you talking on top of the dash near the corner window defrost vents?

I'm ordering my new MINI next week and was thinking of optioning in the HK (old car was stock audio), but for a little more money I know I can build a nice system myself. I think I'm in the same listening mode as you guys, i prefer my sound more balanced, not pounding bass.

thanks

Amit