Well, after a difficult start to the year, I've been having a blast in HS with my 205/50R15 Victoracers on a set of 7-hole alloys. Running 42-44f/47r pressures gave me good turn-in and great lift-throttle rotation if I wanted it.

The year's winding-down, and after 18 events and an Evolution school, my victoracers are nearly toast. The question: What should replace them?

I'd like to stay with the 205/50R15 size, so that gives me lots of choices:

• Another set of Victos
• the new Kumho V710
• Hoosier A3S04's
• Avons
• others?

My criteria, in order of importance:
1) Cost
2) Performance
3) Longevity/Wear

Once I got the pressures figured-out, the Victos were a great, long-lasting, well-behaved tire, good in the rain (when it had tread). Still, thought I'd ask the group their experience with various compounds. The V710, in particular, looks attractive.

Thoughts?

 

Like you said, the Victoracer lasted awhile and did well for autocross and track/schools.
This weekend I will try out the AVON Tech R tyres at our next autocross event.
I saw them mounted on another MINI at the last event and they kinda look like the HOOSIERS.
I will do an evaluation on the AVONSafter this and a few more events.
Here's what they look like before I "scuff" 'em in.....

 

I drove the Avons a couple times on a Miata this summer. I liked them, but I wonder how they'll wear on a Mini. The Miata has about 2 degrees of static camber all the way around, and with the double wisbone suspension, should gain even more camber as the body rolls. And even with all the camber, the tires were sort of splitting on the shoulders. Put those on a heavier car with no camber like a Mini, and they might not last real long.

I got a season, including half a dozen concrete events, out of my victoracers, and I have enough tire left over to start the year next year, because like you, I don't know which tire I want to run in the spring :smile:

One of my local compadres ran Hoosiers (the S03's not the new ones) on his HS Mini this summer, and all I can say is that they do not last long. Also, Jim Harn from Chicago told me he'd get maybe 40 runs out of a set of the "old" hoosiers. He had been running the new (so4's) hoosiers when I ran against him (he smoked me ) and he said they seemed to be wearing better than the old ones.

I, too, am interested in the V710. I don't personally know anyone that has run this tire on a Mini - or any car for that matter.

 

From Edgeracing.com in 205/50-15 consider Toyo Proxes Ra-1

http://edgeracing.com/tire/1120/

$120 each 40 wear rating 23.1" outer diameter
The Toyo Proxes RA-1 is a DOT-approved competition tire. Reinforced sidewalls provide excellent steering response.

Some Great features about the RA-1:
- Long-lasting (when compared to other competition tires)
- They handle high temperatures very well
- Flipping them inside out for maximum life is ok
- Direction does not affect the tire's dry performance.

Our main dislike:
- Not ideal for short auto-x tracks because they need some time to build-up heat.

--------------
The Avon Tech Rs could also need some time to build up to operating temperature.
Might be good for a two driver MINI.

The Toyo site says the Ra-1 operates best at 160-220 F degrees. The stock camber might not be up to the task to generate enough even heat. Those MINIs with more front negative camber might be able to fully use these tires. Recommended camber is -2 to -2.5+ degrees in the front.

 

Given those criteria in that order its the V710 hands-down. Its the best performing tire, its in the low-end of the cost spectrum, and its about middle-of-the-road for longevity.

 

Excellent...I'll have to put some V710's on my Christmas list.

Actually, that leads to another question: Does it affect tires appreciably if they're stored in the cold? I bought my victoracers in January last year, and they languished in sub-zero temps out in my garage until March, and they seemed VERY hard until June (could've just been my driving an inexperience with pressures, though...).

Would it be better to wait to purchase until the start of the season? How big of a 'Run' on tires is there in March/April?

 

First, the Kumho V710 for 205/50-15 are back ordered! Ugh. About two months from now (11/13/04).

How to store tires for the winter? see
http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/maintenance.html
Tire pressures are important and do change with weather changes or garage temps.
Leave the valve caps on to prevent moisture freezing in the valve which can leak air.

You might call Alex@tirerack and ask about storing tires in cold weather. Let us know what he suggests.

At autocross I watched an MC with the Avon Tech R in 215/50-15 and stock holey rims and it worked pretty good. The fronts got hot by the third run but the rears took much longer to heat up. (post edited)

 

How the hell you gonna get -2.2 degrees of negative camber on the front of an HS MINI?

 

BFH???

I'd like to know that one, too! heck, I'd be happy to have a measly 1 degree of negative camber

 

Sorry that was not clear. The H-stock MC was completely stock except for Avon tech R tires on stock rims. All alignment was stock.

In order to set front camber you must add camber plates (not legal for stock class SCCA solo II). I was referring to a modded MINI not a stock MINI.

 

This is the H Stock Forum.

 

Well, I haven't had a chance to run on the 205/50 15" AVON Tech R again.
The most recent event (12/5) I ran on borrowed Kumho Victoracers ( thanks minihune).

In comparison, the AVON's felt more stable than the Victoracers, but still managed to take HS and second overall.

Here's a pic of that event with different types of 15" tires.....

From left to right......me, on Victoracers, (LY/B JCW)...AVON Tech R, minihune...the new Kumho V710, brpph...225 AVON Tech R.

 

Next time we will line up our MINIs for a better picture

Just some details-
From the left in the picture:
Velvet Red MC (H-stock) 15" Holey rims and Kumho Victoracers 205/50-15
LY/B MCS works (ASP) 15" Holey rims and Avon Tech R 205/50-15
IB/W MCS (SM) Kosei K1 TS 15x7 Kumho V710 205/50-15
EB MCS (SM) SSR comp 15x7 Avon Tech R 225/45-15

 

Has anyone found a 15" wheel for HS lighter than the stock wheels? I am a rookie here, but it seems to me that the people running 15" wheels are doing quite good. I am wondering if there is a forged wheel somewhere that would allow the MC to have less unsprung weight than is possible with 13# 16 inch wheels? How much contact patch do you lose moving from 16 to 15 inch wheels?

 

I just saw on some website that Volk supposedly makes a 15 X 5.5 TE37, which would probably weigh around 8lbs

The price was something like $300/corner, though, so it's too rich for my blood! Also, with those odd sized foreign wheels, sometimes you can't actually find every size that they say they make. . . So finding that size on a list on the internet doesn't mean that you'll actually be able to get it.

 

I had a set of unmounted Kumho 710's (205/50/15) next to a stack of Hoosier A3s04 (205/45/16) The stacks were the same height. When mounted the stack of hoosiers was 3 inches taller. Mounting the tires on the 15 inch wheels gave up 3/4 inch per tire in width. That is a big difference. But to really know you would need to do the testing. My guess is that the super light wheels won't make up the for the loss in width.

I'm waiting for the new sizes in the 710 before buying new tires...

 

The two stacks of tires would be the same height unmounted because both are 205mm width tires. Your selection of rim width would determine the final tire tread width but that still doesn't tell the whole story.

Since Kumho V710s come in 205/50-17 as a usable size for the MINI then one can choose a 15x6.5 to 15x7.5" rim to fit it. Even a stock 15x5.5 rim will fit (barely). By choosing the more narrow rim you will decrease the width of the mounted tire by 0.2 inches for every 0.5" less rim width from optimal width.

If you go with a wider tire like the Avon Tech R in 225/45-17 which affords more contact patch and is wider but does weigh more (about 2 or 3 pounds per tire) then you need to use a wider (slightly heavier) rim about 15x7 or better 15x7.5. You give up some lightness for a little more rubber. If you put both the V710 in 205/50 and the Avon Tech R in 225/45 on the same 15x7" rim then both are very very close in tire tread width with a slight edge going to the Avons. It's really not much. So always think about which rim you are using with the tire you have. Sometimes the tires are not available in optimal sizes so you will have to decide which tact to take. The smaller 205/50-15 tire (perfect fit is with 15x6.5" rim) will "stretch" onto the wide 15x7" rim more and stiffen the sidewall a bit compared to the 225/45-17 which is not stretched to fit a 15x7 rim since perfect fit is 15x7.5".

Another consideration is that wider tires are best used with correct alignment for track or autocross. I can tell you that with rear negative camber set at -1.2 degrees I do not use much of the inner 0.5" of my rear Kumho V710 tires during autocross. I have my front neg camber set to -2.2 degrees and I do use all of the front tread. I'd have to adjust rear negative camber to more negative and maybe soften up the setting on my rear swaybar if I want to use more rubber from my tire.

 

DaCrema,
For H-stock class in SCCA solo II you need the stock 15x5.5" wheel with 4x100 bolt pattern AND an offset within 0.25" + or - the stock wheel offset so something about +45mm for the Volks would be legal not the +35mm option. Although the Volks are quite light about 8 pounds each compared to the stock holey rims which are 12 pounds each, it's expensive to pay almost $1300 for a set of TE-37 rims.

Cheaper to just find a set of Stock Holeys and mount race tires on them. Most times if you can find some light 205/50-15 tires you can get the wheel and tire weight down to about 30 pounds which is light enough for any MINI.

If you don't run in H-stock and you can choose any wheel/tire size then a wider 15" rim becomes attractive. 15x7" rims can weigh about 9 to 10.6 pounds and accept 205/50-15 or 225/45-15 tires which gives a good selection of race tires to choose from. Lighter rims like the SSR comps cost alot more while the Kosei K1 TS are more reasonable but not as strong and weigh more.

Contact patch between 15, 16, and 17" tires varies with the width of the rim and the width and aspect ratio of the tire.
Expect the contact patch to be more with-
wider rims
wider tires with lower aspect ratio
Correct negative camber settings for front and rear

Is it better to have a lighter less large contact patch wheel set up vs a slightly heavier larger contact patch wheel set up? I think it is personal preference and depends on your driving style and the course you drive on and type of event it might be.

For a less powered MINI such as any MC or stock MCS then a lighter smaller wheel (accelerate and brake quicker) would be a good place to start. For mid to highly modded MCS then you can choose a larger wheel or wider tire size or not. You still have to drive very well to balance your car's suspension to get full use out of your tires. Skill still counts more than size of contact patch.

 

minihune, you can also run 16x6.5" rims they are a factory Cooper option.

The lightest legal rim is the SSR comp R at around 11 lbs $300 and some change. The only other legal 16" rim I know of is monza made by NZO around $150

 

Thanks everyone.

I have a set of Monza 16" rims that come in around 14# each. I will be putting a set of Kumho or Hoosiers on the car for autocross this year. Last year I was running Falkens. If there was a 15" stock size wheel out there for the same cost as the Monzas I might consider picking up a 3rd set of rims. That would let me keep the Falkens mounted on the Monza rims for rain and summer driving. I don't care much for the idea of the Falkens on stock rims because of the weight per corner but likely will go down that road.



As the season nears I will be watching for comments on Kumho vs. Hoosiers. I am staying in HS next season. I will be up against some very good drivers but feel I have a shot at doing fairly well in the local SCCA events. I live in the WashingtonDC area and there are some really good drivers running in the same events. They will provide good constants to compare my times and measure (any) improvement.

 

Yes, both MC and MCS in stock classes can run 16x6.5" wheels such as in the stock X-lyte or 5 spoke rims. SSR made a special Comp R in the stock 16" size that is legal and costs $319 each. A reasonable 11 pounds and strong.
No centercap and finish in anthracite.

Consider that although the SSR 16" rim is one pound lighter, the 16" tire will weigh more than the 15" tire. The tire rim combo weight will be close or lower with the 15" wheel. Tire selection is limited with 16" tires for autocross compared to 15". Monzas (16" is legal for stock classes) are good with reasonable prices, just not as light. The smaller diameter 205/50-15 tire helps with the equivalent of lowering gearing for the MINI.

 

There really is no strong evidence that supports any theory that the 15's will be faster.

Last I checked, Garfield and Chiles were running 16s, as well as the '04 HS champ.

We can look at numbers all day, and while the 15 *might* look better on paper with lighter weight and a *slight* gearing advantage you lose the most important ingredient; contact patch. I don't care what anybody says, in autocross more tire is better, especially in stock class where you can't do anything but squeeze the largest tire possible on the stock sized rims.

A 16" 205 will have a larger contact patch than a 15" 205 because of the longer length of the contact patch.

Other than budget reasons, it is silly to run 15s if your budget allows 16s.

oh, FYI, I'll sacrifice weight for a bigger contact patch any day of the week (in stock class Solo2)

 

Absolutely... and besides the difference in tire diameter between the 15's and 16's is about 0.1 inches.. irrelevant.

 

When Grassroots Motorsports magazine was running an HS Cooper they tested 15" and 16" set-ups and found, not surprisingly, the 16s to be about a half second faster on your typical autocross course.

 

Yes, the contact patch is larger, but this is a very small difference. To gain that slight advantage in width at a sacrifice in several lbs per wheel and you lose the lower gearing of the 15s too -- is questionable IMO. Hey, but what do I know? :smile: