If this is discussed elsewhere, please forgive me

Finally went to the Mini Madness site and was intrigued by the 260+ BHP modification option. Who wouldn't, right?

At any rate, what is the "water" in water to air?

Years ago I seem to remember that Buick had a supercharged engine with a water cooled intercooler. It was a separate water bottle that you had to refil and it sprayed water on the intercooler to reduce it's temp.

Is that the deal here?

 

>>If this is discussed elsewhere, please forgive me
>>
>>Finally went to the Mini Madness site and was intrigued by the 260+ BHP modification option. Who wouldn't, right?
>>
>>At any rate, what is the "water" in water to air?
>>
>>Years ago I seem to remember that Buick had a supercharged engine with a water cooled intercooler. It was a separate water bottle that you had to refil and it sprayed water on the intercooler to reduce it's temp.
>>
>>Is that the deal here?

A water to air intercooler means that the intercooler itself is incased so that water actively flows through it. This transfers the heat to the water which then goes through a radiator where the water is cooled down. It includes a modified intercooler, stock core typically with plumbing. Ontop of this you need a pump and a radiator plus a few other odds and ends. Water to air seems to make a lot of sense in a street driven vehicle. Problem is that the radiator and associated bit add weight. Not to mention the complexity of the water system itself.

Here's a picture of RandyBMC's water to air. Notice the inlet and outlet pipes from the intercooler.



My $ will be going to a larger air to air.

Paul

 

You are just wasting your money by going to a larger air to air. Once engine heat gets to any air to air located on the top of the engine it is rendered useless. Water-air = most efficient when used on the mini. Just wait for a well researched/designed water to air.

 

is great for "shorter bursts," but it will eventually heat soak and you can't cool it down. In general water to air is better for drag racing and around town, and air to air is better for longer high speed boost conditions like at higher speeds or on the track.

-early

 

No, the air to air suffers from heat soak much more than a well researched water to air. The alta, the big air-air, may flow well but because of its location it will always suffer from heat soak just as much as the stock unit. Therefore making it just as useless as the stocker.

 

Agreed. According to recent discussions on the net and with Randy Webb as well the ability to store and circulate enough water, in a Mini especially, to remove heat soak is the major negative with this type of system especially in warmer climates or hard use. Al at BMP was able to make this type of system work at the Eurotuner shoot out last year at Willow Springs but he had a couple of gallon tank in the trunk cooled with dry ice. That's a bit extreme for everyday use in my opinion. BTW we do not sell or intend to sell either type so I am just offering up info for discussion

Randy
Team M7

 

This heat soak only occurs when you are traveling very slow, or stopped. When at speed, the air-air creates lower AIT's than a water-air.

 

my two cents if air to air is so much better how come we are not all driving air cooled cars.................

 

I'd like to see a replacement intercooler (either air/air or water/air) that does a better job of charge cooling than the stock one:

 

Because VW stopped making them.
Because h20 cooling gives a more consistent operating temp. irreguardless of ambient temps. air-to-air for intake temps give a lower temp (unless ambient is desert scorching hot)

 

From what I recall reading for other cars that had these as viable options, even where water out-performed air (some, but not all scenarios), it was marginal - like a hp or maybe 2. And with all of the extra plumbing, and weight of the water at 8.5lbs a gallon, in effect what gains might be had with water, can be "lost" with a unit weighing more. Pounds relate to HP. And for the MCS (I think), around 16 pound "equals" 1hp. The added weight sucks, especially on our already front heavy rides...

Unless the water-to-air is much more productive, like a few hp better, I wouldn't even consider spending more money to add more weight and get maybe slightly better to no gain (and less in some situations) over a highly effective air-to-air unit that will cost less and be easier to install and maintain. Air cools both systems. Complexity is not always the answer, and I don't feel that it is the best solution here...

 

But why even upgrade to a larger air to air if it is just going to get heat soaked. Just wait until... a new water to air comes out, one that is track, street, and lab tested.

 

Why upgrade to a larger air-to-air? Well, if it's putting out let's say 10-12 hp compared to stock, that's a good reason for many. That's really the bottom line. Unless a water-to-air is doing like 15hp (compared to that 10-12), the water-to-air won't be worth it for many people as it would only be marginally better, at best, and even inferior in some situations...

Sure heat soak is not good, but if it's still cranking-out as much or more than a water to air, it doesn't matter. The Hot Air Intake thread shows that although heat is not your friend, if other attributes are maximized, gains can be had over traditional "cold" air intakes...

And if you front-mount an air-to-air, further benefits can be had. There is already one available, and another, as I understand, soon to come...

Without the introduction of a cooling agent, the lowest temp a water-to-air or an air-to-air will see is ambient air. The virtues of water's mass make it beneficial in heat transfer and retention, in some situations, no doubt. But I firmly believe that if one compares the best water-to-air ic with the best air-to-air ic for several vehicles, they will not differ by a whole lot in terms of performance. Then factoring in the weight, price, install, maintenance (minimal), it becomes a no-brainer for me. And if an FMIC is an option, I'd take an air any day, considering price of course (an FMIC is bound to me more expensive)...

Randy Webb has done a fair amount of track and dyno testing of several aftermkt ic units, including an FMIC. He's a good resource to ping, if interested....

 

I saw a front mounted intercooler on a guys car feature a few issues back in goMINI. What are the thoughts on this type of setup?

 

A front mount would get my vote . Less related plumbing , water pumps ,tanks and weight in general that a Water to Air system as well as less heat soak. The install would be a lot simpler if it is going to be along the lines of the one randy Webb has been working on.
Randy
Team M7

 

i agree with a front mount air to air, but at 2400 bucks no way, not to mention none of the water to air are currently designed correctly, i will say close, but i have modded mine and got way better results, its all in how to get the heat transfer better, the wraped intercooler is marginaly ok, it should be diffrent, and the front mout rads on both systems really not all that great....even with the way i modded min it could be improved but i need to find the correct parts, and havent yet, so i still feel there is way more improvement to be done.....

 

The front mount intercoolers that are starting to come up are way too big for our application, and because of that the pressure drop will be far greater than a top mount. The water-air intercoolers that are on the market right now are very underdeveloped, considering that it is the stock ic with a water jacket around it. My question is... what is the temperature the alta is running at (degrees above ambient). And why does everyone push the alta? Just because it is larger doesnt mean that it is better, dont any of you understand that once the engine warms up so does the intercooler, thus decreasing the efficiency. The air coming through the hood scoop does a minimal job of cooling, which makes the alta just as useless as the stock air-air. This is why a water-air is always going to be superior.

 

I agree, alos another problem i see arising with the upcoming front mout air to air, it going to suffocating the radiator, and start causing overheating problems, i have alread researched this in modding my water to air, and actually had cut the front "exchanger" down because of this, now im in process of working it other ways, like staging it and such, but like i said before its hard to find the right materials to get through this "experimental" phase, i am not planning to release my own water to air, but possibly a how-to on fixing the problems with the existing ones, i might produce one if it is extremly more efficeint.... right now as mine sits cruising is see a 20d increase from ambient, is i punch it run it up to redline the water may increase 1degree, the intake temp may run as high as 250d, and the outlet (into the motor) will run around 110d(abient in the mid 90's)which is pretty good, but if i can get it to be closer to ambient at cruise it would be way more efficient. As it is also both exchangers need to be improved, im losing 10d in water temp and 10d in the top exchanger, meaning if its 87degrees ambient, my water in the system is around 97d, and the outlet of the intercooler air is at 107..........

 

Caddman sounds liek you have some good things in the works and do keep us posted . We have no stake in westher type and would just like to see the best system emerge. As was mentioned by others this point in time the current water to air does not offer a big enough performance increase over the air to air to warrent the expense , installation effort and added weight of the system. Hopefully yours will offer more of a worthwhile gain .Good luck and keep us posted.

Randy
Team M7

 

OK, I saw the graph, and also caddman's temps... However, this "Water to Air" thread should have inspired someone by now, to say:

"SHOW ME THE PLUMBERS!"

All right I'm shutting up and getting back to work now,
Tatt

 

While we're on the subject does anyone have the skinny on the core that JLM was using in this test?

I can't believe people haven't jumped on this. An independent test of an IC that produces some decent (10hp) gains.

The differences and relative merits of W/A and A/A coolers are well-known, and I'd think it'd be easy to choose if you how you'd use it.

Jeff

 

Any IC sitting on top is exposed to heat, and with that heat soak. This is true of water or air units. The water or air flow through it (the IC) has the job to take that heat away. Heat soak is just not an air-to-air issue - it's an issue for any ic in a hot place...

And while I'm sure that a-to-a and w-to-a units are not refined for us as they might be by let's say this time next year, for other makes and models, the deltas between the two have been minimal. And more often than not, after factoring-in weight, air units are typically better performers, besides being less money.

friedduck, I think jlm is engaged in an ic project, and knowing him, I would expect it to be a real winner. Maybe a more affordable FMIC?

The bottom line for virtually all of us is - what is the best bang for the buck? If the best air and water systems are doing 10 to 12 hp, folks will get the one that is the cheapest, and that they can install easily themselves, as opposed to getting a shop involved (more money). If an FMIC is to be double the price, or even more, gains would need to be notable for me - at least several more hp...

 

Going back to another thread, I wonder if something similiar to the Pro-Mini turbo intercooler wouldn't be a viable solution? Its large enough to work, but still much smaller in volume for the blower to pressurize with minimal lag.

 

In trying to visualize the hood closed on the PROMINI Turbo car, it seems that airflow should be pretty good on that unit. It seems to hold some promise, I think...

 

The Promini's system problem is that the supercharger system is gone in that setup so therefore the plumbing is gone as well, to plum that system the current sc setup would be near impossible, the near part would be outragously priced, which is the delima of all the prototypes, even the mods im doing are not cheap, so hopefully when i get a system that works out like i want, then i can work on getting the cost down, but once again im not really out to make a system for sale, but for my own use, unless it proves to be both costeffective and worthwhile....which honestly seems to be a long shot...