61, 62, 63mm... different prices, different power claims. What's the real deal? Helix's got one at 63mm and under $400 but claims only 2.5hp. Madness claims over 10hp with the same size TB. Randy is at 5hp with smaller TB. Does anyone have opinions on larger throttle bodies

 

Here is the skinny as far as I understand it.

->Helix and Madness feel the larger TB is better based on their testing.
->Randy said that during his testing the smaller TB made the best performance numbers.
->I think the real numbers are somewhere in between Helix and Randy's
->The throttlebodies only appear to offer the increased hp at the top of the rev range (I think around 6,000 +), so not very noticeable.
->The biggest pro that a lot of people say is the increased throttle response provided by these units.

Madness has a whole section discounting the competitors design. I am unsure who the competitor is that they are referring to. It appears Helix's and Randy's design do not show any of the issues that Madness points out.

As far as which one is better the 61mm or the 63mm, I am not sure. Both Eric and Randy have their own good reasoning, therefore you may want to get some other people's input on which is better the smaller or the larger?

 

The funny thing about the Madness site is that they rip on their competitors for using tape to hold the throttle together (rightly so, IMHO), yet their own TB had tape holding it together in the pictures on their site.

 

A rebored Throttlebody should be a late modification after you have done:
upgraded pulley (in an MCS)
intake
cat-back exhaust
Suspension
Wheels/tires

Why? because like what Helix13 has documented, the gains are limited and are greatest at nearly redline.
Randy has found in his testing that some gains are a bit earlier but dyno results may vary from one shop to another.

That $400 would be better spent on a larger intercooler if you want to modify a MCS for power.
I'm not sure that I would add a TB to an MC without doing other things first like porting and polishing heads and/or adding a schrick cam in addition to the other things mentioned.

Consider an ECU upgrade last as well so that it can be tuned to the rest of the upgrades and not before all is done or you may need to change versions or MAP for the ECU.

 

>>A rebored Throttlebody should be a late modification after you have done:
>>upgraded pulley (in an MCS)
>>intake
>>cat-back exhaust
>>Suspension
>>Wheels/tires


don't forget header and ECU remap

I'm posing this question just for educational purposes. I'm not convinced of this modifications cost effectiveness (though, my Alta TMIC is far from CE...LOL but it does look HOT!).

All of the above mods have been done. So there's not much else to look at other than the TB which doesn't involve internal surgery

 

>>A rebored Throttlebody should be a late modification after you have done:
>>upgraded pulley (in an MCS)
>>intake
>>cat-back exhaust
>>Suspension
>>Wheels/tires
>>
>>Why? because like what Helix13 has documented, the gains are limited and are greatest at nearly redline.
>>Randy has found in his testing that some gains are a bit earlier but dyno results may vary from one shop to another.
>>
>>That $400 would be better spent on a larger intercooler if you want to modify a MCS for power.
>>I'm not sure that I would add a TB to an MC without doing other things first like porting and polishing heads and/or adding a schrick cam in addition to the other things mentioned.
>>
>>Consider an ECU upgrade last as well so that it can be tuned to the rest of the upgrades and not before all is done or you may need to change versions or MAP for the ECU.


I think Misfitoy has all of those items, including the intercooler.

 

>>I'm posing this question just for educational purposes. I'm not convinced of this modifications cost effectiveness (though, my Alta TMIC is far from CE...LOL but it does look HOT!).
>>
>>All of the above mods have been done. So there's not much else to look at other than the TB which doesn't involve internal surgery

It is true that the TB is an attractive and easy (30 minute install) upgrade for less than $500 but the performance gains are limited.

If you have all the other big mods done then driving school and track or autocross time would be next on my list before TB.

 

>>
>>>>I'm posing this question just for educational purposes. I'm not convinced of this modifications cost effectiveness (though, my Alta TMIC is far from CE...LOL but it does look HOT!).
>>>>
>>>>All of the above mods have been done. So there's not much else to look at other than the TB which doesn't involve internal surgery
>>
>>It is true that the TB is an attractive and easy (30 minute install) upgrade for less than $500 but the performance gains are limited.
>>
>>If you have all the other big mods done then driving school and track or autocross time would be next on my list before TB.
>>

 

Madness's 10HP claim is unreasonable, especially compared to the other two credible TB's claiming "about" 2.5 and 5HP. Helix goes for the big big bore (similar to Madness, most likely in power gain too), whereas Randy has found a smaller but specially tapered and wall surfaced bore works better. Randy's extensive R&D pays off in the power numbers, but does cost a bit more. In any case, the throttle body upgrade should be after critical stuff like pulley, CAI, ECU, and exhaust....even a bigger intercooler before the TB upgrade.

 

MSFITOY,

I put one of Randy's TB's on my car @ the Detroit P/P - back when you were getting your work done. Still remember the look on your face when both our master mechanic & host of the event almost got carted off to jail - while your car was on jack stands - Priceless! lol

I already had the pulley, EVOtech, Magnaflow, Pilo coilpack, IK22's, BMP intake & Magnacore wires.

I did the T/B because I was switching to the Alta intake with hose. If I hadn't of done the Alta I wouldn't have done the T/B either. Why bother with a larger throat if the pipe's still undersized?

Were I in your shoes I'd do it. ...Being that you already have the Alta/hose.
BUT
Pretty soon though you're going to want the UNIchip, and then you'll need larger injectors - cuz you'll max yours out. It never ends!

While I can't show HP gains (no dyno after install) I can tell you that perceived throttle response (improvement) wasn't the subtle artifact some folks make it out to be - it is a very noticable improvement. I'm very pleased with the modt regardless of what the hp increase might be.

Is your car still clean enough to eat off of?

 

As far as throttlebodies go-

Consider that your perceived gain in improved throttle response is subjective and may not be related much to the objective gains in HP as measured by dyno tests from various sources.

Numbers for HP gains can be boosted so you have to know the source so that you can compare the advertised hype.
Helix13 generally does not hype much, Eric is into real world/real life gains. If it ain't doing much then it ain't doing much. Randy I know worked very long and hard on getting a throttlebody that he was happy with after much adjustment and modification and like everything else there are tradeoffs from changing one thing or another. I think he told me that he went through something like 20 variations before the final was selected.

If by adding the TB you enjoy driving your MINI more then great. Whether it leads to lowered times on autocross or anything else measureable remains to be seen or appreciated beyond small gains.

I have Randy's early TB and I rather like it. Plus it's a stealthy upgrade since I use the stock clamps on my hoses.

 

Here's a dyno plot of two runs, with all conditions being the same (Temp, car, IAT, ECT, Peak IAT, Gear etc.), before and after we replaced the stock TB with a 63mm TB. As you can see, the results are pretty dissapointing. This TB was made by JLM (who I believe makes that Madness one and possibly others). The machine work is impeccable in terms of flow, which leads me to believe that there is not a significant pressure drop across the TB.

I've got it on my car, for better or worse, and I'll stick to my story that there are better ways to spend your performance buck. Here's the plot, sorry for the size.

 

>>Here's a dyno plot of two runs, with all conditions being the same (Temp, car, IAT, ECT, Peak IAT, Gear etc.), before and after we replaced the stock TB with a 63mm TB. As you can see, the results are pretty dissapointing. This TB was made by JLM (who I believe makes that Madness one and possibly others). The machine work is impeccable in terms of flow, which leads me to believe that there is not a significant pressure drop across the TB.
>>
>>I've got it on my car, for better or worse, and I'll stick to my story that there are better ways to spend your performance buck. Here's the plot, sorry for the size.
>>
>>
>>

 

Do any of the modded throttle bodies have a knife-edge or smoothly bevelled inlet? My Alta hose clamps onto the outside of the stock TB and has a ~4 mm lip that they air is hitting at a 90 degree angle. It seems that a smooth taper would result in cleaner airflow and less pressure drop.

I did some rough math and that's a wall over 1 in^2 !

_________________
SHOW ME THE NUMBERS!

...How Fast is Your MINI?...My Mods...

 

I really doubt Randy's throttle body is truly more powerful. Most likely it's just different dynos on different days in different conditions in different MINIs.

 

I really doubt Randy's throttle body is truly more powerful. Most likely it's just different dynos on different days in different conditions in different MINIs. :smile: