Lets send a message to these folks and tell them, by posting here, that you would buy their ECU. Just get busy and come out with it. If you agree lets make this the longest post on this site.

Dennis

 

>> Lets send a message to these folks and tell them, by posting here, that you would buy their ECU. Just get busy and come out with it. If you agree lets make this the longest post on this site.
>>
>>Dennis

Why would I do that since I haven't even seen it, the price or the test results yet?

:smile:

-Jim

 

How about we come out and say something like "We aren't going to wait forever. GIAC's interminable delays have driven us to other, currently available, ECU improvements. Say buh-bye to the lost revenue from sales going to competitors."

Or something similiar.

 

gee, I never would have guessed from the tone of previous posts that some felt this way.....

I'm pretty sure that the parties involved understand basic economics and alienating those who won't wait any longer. But it's always nice to hear new ways of expressing discontent....

 

>> Lets send a message to these folks and tell them, by posting here, that you would buy their ECU. Just get busy and come out with it. If you agree lets make this the longest post on this site.

Dennis,

There have been many threads already started about GIAC that are already very long. Pick one and add to it if you wish.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=23384
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=22710
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=24159
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=22299

You may also call or send email directly to Garrett at GIAC or Eric at HELIX13.

I have choosen to wait for GIAC to come out before I decide what to do because:
GIAC has a proven track record with excellent products at a competitive price.
GIAC will be released in versions for different size reduction pulleys- 15%, 17%, and 19%.
GIAC is an advanced (well designed) ECU upgrade
I'd like to see this product tested and compared to the other ECU upgrades that cost $700.

In my area there has got to be at least 10 MCS owners waiting on ECU upgrades. Only one MCS owner has the shark injector so far. A few have JCW kits. Everyone else is ready to hear news. Nobody wants a half baked product.
Do it right and price it right. I can tell you that if GIAC is well done then competitors will have to lower their current prices and some owners will think about switching to GIAC. Others will be happy with their investments and be fine.
And that is cool too.

 

>>>> Lets send a message to these folks and tell them, by posting here, that you would buy their ECU. Just get busy and come out with it. If you agree lets make this the longest post on this site.
>>
>>Dennis,
>>
>>There have been many threads already started about GIAC that are already very long. Pick one and add to it if you wish.
>>https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=23384
>>https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=22710
>>https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=24159
>>https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=22299
>>
>>You may also call or send email directly to Garrett at GIAC or Eric at HELIX13.
>>
>>I have choosen to wait for GIAC to come out before I decide what to do because:
>>GIAC has a proven track record with excellent products at a competitive price.
>>GIAC will be released in versions for different size reduction pulleys- 15%, 17%, and 19%.
>>GIAC is an advanced (well designed) ECU upgrade
>>I'd like to see this product tested and compared to the other ECU upgrades that cost $700.
>>
>>In my area there has got to be at least 10 MCS owners waiting on ECU upgrades. Only one MCS owner has the shark injector so far. A few have JCW kits. Everyone else is ready to hear news. Nobody wants a half baked product.
>>Do it right and price it right. I can tell you that if GIAC is well done then competitors will have to lower their current prices and some owners will think about switching to GIAC. Others will be happy with their investments and be fine.
>>And that is cool too.
>>
minihune,

Very sensible reply and that's why I'm waiting.
Question, do you guy's only work at night.

 

From previous experience with VW's and seeing what Garret has managed to get out of these cars, and still be very reliable. That is he main reason why I am waiting for the G.I.A.C. Also usually the price is very well set.

 

>>From previous experience with VW's and seeing what Garret has managed to get out of these cars, and still be very reliable. That is he main reason why I am waiting for the G.I.A.C. Also usually the price is very well set.


I think the price will be strong point and he does have some credibility, but I wouldn't compare what he got out of VW's in regards to the Mini. Especially if it is the 1.8T. This engine is detuned quite a bit at the ECU level from the factory, so loosening the constraints on that part of the code, gives a good 30-40hp and 50 ft/lbs. of torque. We will not see anywhere near that with this chip. Most everyone is getting similiar numbers as Garret with the VW 1.8T. I would be impressed if Helix sees a 10-12hp and 10ft. lbs of torque on three different cars on their Mustang dyno. These would be good numbers, but again no where to what you see from the VW numbers.

 

This is exactly what I said in another post. It is pure economics. GIAC is not going to put a total effort in if the customer base is not there. All I wanted to find out is what the interest is. Pretty low huh :???:

 

Have you read any of the other threads on the GIAC? Seems that there is some interest there.

 

I have read the other posts but they all seem to migrate into other topics. I was looking for a definative answer from the Mini community about this issue only. Oh well didn't get it, nor did GIAC.

Bummed out Dennis

 

>>I have read the other posts but they all seem to migrate into other topics. I was looking for a definative answer from the Mini community about this issue only. Oh well didn't get it, nor did GIAC.
>>
>> Bummed out Dennis


Meanwhile, back in paradise, I gave up waiting and went with Randy Webb's Powerchips ECU upgrade. I have nothing but seat feel to support my opinion; but it sure feels good: greatly improved throttle response, more low end torque. IMO GIAC is not going to give me that much more. Yes, all things come to those who wait... including gray hair.

_________________


'02 EB/W MCS, Rogue intake, Helix 15% pulley, Webb/Powerchips ECU, Magnaflow exhaust, Alta Oil Catch Can, Exel TZ-10 white wheels, Magnecor wires, Denso Iridiums, XM Satellite

 

Hey guy,

Hope that car's doing well. So you like Randy's ECU, eh? Maybe I should start looking into something new for my toy...

Marty

 

It's testimonials like this that make me think the GIAC will give that much more. If the GIAC really adds 8-10lbs of torque - not at peak, but lifts the entire curve by that much from 2200RPMs to 6100RPMs, it won't just "feel faster" with "greatly improved throttle response". That torque difference is greater than what the 19% gives over the 15%, and the difference in driveability is night and day. I imagine the GIAC chip will completely change how this car feels. It should be like driving a MINI for the first time again. I truly expect it to blow me away. But then again, maybe I'm just easily excited.

 

I truly expect it to blow me away. But then again, maybe I'm just easily excited.


regettably, my experience in life has been that long waits and growing anticipation create situations where the reality never had a chance to live up to the dream... hope it's good for you

 

There is only so much you can do with the Mini. There are a lot of chips out there that are doing roughly the same numbers. How much more can you do to the tables. Sure you can tweak them a little bit further, but to think that you are going to see a night and day difference between Randy's and GIAC, I don't think so. The same hype was with Evotech when it came out. Then Randy's was announced and the pressure built up and yes it did show a few more hp, but no one could tell this major seat of the pants feeling between Randy and the EVO, just a little more smoother and slightly better throttle response, but even then it was mixed. This isn't like a VW where we are going to see some fantastic 40hp and 55ft/lbs of torque. Even the 10ft/lbs of torque that Helix has shown was only 2 more than the competition. I think we have seen the limits of these chips.

What is the real next step in innovation for these chips will be delivery of the software (i.e. stand alone units, multiple settings) and piggyback fuel management systems like the one that jlm is playing with. Your kidding yourself, if you think that this chip is going to blow the socks off of you in comparison to the other chips. The GIAC is still requiring the old school method of popping the chip out and shipping it, and hopefully not getting it lost in the mail.

This is the same type of hype that the Mini community is known for. Everyone played this game with the exhausts. It was crazy to see the stockpiles of exhausts around the country fluctuate with the release of Randy's reviews and dyno's. First rush on the Quicksilver, then a rumor about the UUC, then two weeks later, who cares about the UUC, the Miltek is out, sell my Quicksilver so I can get that extra 1hp and 1ft./lb of torque on the Miltek. Vendors and distributors were getting pissed off, that is one of the reasons Randy left to start his own board. This is no fault on Randy's part, but more a reflection of this community. I haven't seen anything like it before.

I have heard shops complaining about not being able to keep a nice showroom with stock, because each week it was something different with the Mini owners. If they had jumped on the bandwagon, they would have had a lot of UUC exhausts sitting around by now, and all there money tied up in those so they couldn't bring in any Milteks. So a lot of them resorted to drop shipments, or having people look at them online and then they would order them for people.

Again, this isn't a slam on GIAC or Helix, more a complaint on the expectations and herd mentality that is pervasive in this community.

 

dgszweda 1: very thoughtful and eloquently said...

 

dgszweda 1 - pretty accurate description of the lemming mentality. I saw it happen with the lowering springs as well, first people had H&R's, then someone said H Sports were better. And the intakes. And the swaybars. Upgraditis gone wild. And if the GIAC shows decent gains over others, what will happen then? It's still a pretty young market for this car....

Oh yeah, and what about DINAN? I know at least one owner waiting for that one.

 

dgszweda 1 - I think the mentality stems from our need to get true accurate measurements of performance/power that the products provide. We are so hungry for numbers that we jump at any product that has proven numbers. This is why Randy's reviews/results are so important to us. We need accurate comparisons of products to choose the right one. Without the numbers were just left to pick the one that looks the best to us. Provide the number and your decision can be easily swayed.

Looking at ECU's right now I have no idea what to buy or what I'm actually getting for my money, so I sit here with no ECU upgrade waiting for the products and numbers to pan out. I'm seriously thinking of taking the $220 ECU I built myself that's sitting on the desk behind me and installing it in my MINI and taking it to the local Dyno to tune it. I'd probably get a better/custom setup that way.

_________________

 

. Yes, all things come to those who wait... including gray hair.
>>
>>_________________

Hay, I would take gray hair -- my hair just went away.

I am going with Randy Webb as soon as he comes to San Diego.

Earl

 

We need some objective analysis of these items. I also think that a lot of people need education on these upgrades to help them make informed decisions. The problem is that all we get is information from the tuner and other consumer's reviews. The information from the tuner usually contains fact surrounding the physical and programmatic structure of the ECU, but begins to turn into marketing information which is slanted when it comes to defining the result of the upgrade. Some of this is logical since a tuner is not going to sell, in their opinion, an inferior product. The problem is that some tuners are also slanted because of their past experiences, biases, and preferences on what they think is important. Most if not all tuners/manufacturers do this. It is not necessarily a negative trait, but one that has to be weighed into the picture. A good example would be Helix's issues with Nology, or Webbmotorsports issue with heat on pulleys, or any of the other various personnal thoughts on various issues/upgrades. Again, this isn't a negative trait per se or an attack on any one tuner. We often pay for advice from individuals with experience. The more complicated the issue is to understand, the more we seek "expert" advice. We just have to be careful that the advice is not slanted because of personnel experiences and that it is a true analysis of the situation. This is hard for a lot of people to dissect when they receive information.

The second issue is that consumer reviews are also slanted. Most individuals who have provide testimony related to new products is usually based on only one or two items on the market. Most people who comment on a product have usually only used a single brand of the product. A few may have had another brand, such as a race Borla and a street Borla, but almost no one has had any experience of three or more brands for the same product. Therefore these reviews are slanted. The driveability may be improved over the stock ECU, but how does it compare to Brand A and Brand B. Most people will never know. Also, again a lot of people are slanted by past experiences. Someone saw a chip that Garett did on an VW, and his products receive a little more credit down the line, or someone has a bad experience with a vendor and all their products are tainted in some form or fashion.

This basically means that an independent third party needs to provide unbiased results based on a systematic form of testing and review. We will probably never get this. A lot of the times we rely on magazines for this type of information, but the magazines devoted to Minis or Mini products is quite slim.

People just need to realize that what we see is not necessarily the whole picture and that informed decisions take a lot of investigation. We shouldn't rely on what one person says or set of numbers a tuner provides as the only source of analysis. Even if we love that tuner, and they seem smart and intelligent, we still need to evaluate every product on it's own two feet independent of the biases that can form. I think this approach can help reduce the "lemming" effect found here.

I don't know how many times I have seen the people jump on something to just find out something bigger and better comes along. Then you start seeing the previous "big thing" show up on ebay. Don't get me wrong, I like getting good deals from all the guinea pigs here, but it would save a lot of people a lot of money by just making informed decisions.

To bring this back on topic. My take on the GIAC is that each element should be evaluated:

-Packaging
-Performance
-Cost
-Driveability (i.e. throttle response, smoothness...)
-Gas mileage

And in that context it should be evaluated for the strengths and weaknesses. Some people hold more value over other elements. For example, the GIAC rates really low on packaging, whereas the Shark rates much higher for convenience. Even though some people hold a greater weight on performance, everyone still holds some weight to packaging. For example, you wouldn't want to ship your ECU out for two months to get the programming done (not to say the GIAC requires this), therefore it holds some weight, it is just more minor than performance. Take the performance with a grain of salt. It would be of a greater benefit if Helix/GIAC did performance testing across three cars on three different dynos on three different days, and averaged the results. This would have a lot more weight than a single graph from a single dyno. Also, realize that Eric will have some bias (again nothing against Eric), because he is not going to release something to market that he doesn't believe in. Again, it is still his belief, and in no way does Eric have the corner on the market on absolute truth. Randy may believe one thing on chip design and Erik may believe in another. It doesn't mean that either are wrong, but that each has a different way of looking at the issues and in some cases Randy may be right and in other's Erik may be right. Lastly, past experiences does not equate to future results. While it may show a trend it doesn't necessarily prove what our experiences will be like on new items. One good example is the Shark Injector. It was touted for a long time that the performance will be great from this unit, because Jim Conforti has done a lot of work on BMW and has done some impressive results from his work. In reality the chip has been shown, by independent results on numerous occasions to barely make any discernable performance results and many were disappointed after purchasing the product (again nothing against the Shark it has it's merits), despite the fact that some tuners were showing 8-10hp gains on the chip and 200hp with the chip and pulley.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the current situation and especially as it relates to the upcoming GIAC release.

 

Good point. It's difficult to glean an objective viewof a review or dyno chart on a product that has been co-developed by tuner and vendor.

The main problem, in my mind anyway, is that the only people who have the money and time to objectively review/dyno/assess the performance gains of competing products are usually the same vendors who are participating in product development. I know this statement contributes nothing toward progress, but if anyone has ideas, I'm open to them. Hell, if we could somehow start a fund for it, I'd be willing to request competitive products for testing and then have them dynoed (hopefully only having to spend my time and communal $$$ for dyno, maybe I can return the products if the maker allows).

M

 

Ok, I need to ask what makes the MINI seemingly so chip unfriendly? Maybe that VW example provided earlier (30-40hp and 50 ft/lbs) was because it was a tubro application, or are there other 4-bangers getting substantially more from their ECU mods? Just trying to better understand our situation more in a big-picture view, and with that information, I think I/we can better focus on those weak-link areas... Thanks.

 

First off, if we are going to start a fund, I nominate Andy to do the testing (with pay of course). Granting he can needle someone to death, but I think he does a good job objectively testing this stuff and providing good solid numbers from various viewpoints.

It isn't that it is chip unfriendly, just that the engine is tuned to the hilt to make that kind of power from a small engine. The more mods that you make to it, the more effect the tuning will have. But out of the box it is tuned pretty well, except for throttle response and some smoothness issues.

 

Not me. I'll drive to Helix.

The UUC is a better exhaust anyway IMO.