Greetings Folks

I am facing the carbon buildup issue, 2009 MCS.

Trying to get Mini and MAG (Columbus Mini dealer) to take ownership of problem.

If you have had or have issues with carbon buildup in Ohio/ MAG please post/contact with problem, resolution etc.....


We must take a stand to force the company to acknowledge the problem.
Not accept it as our responsibility.

Thanks

 

Dude, check the search. There's tons of discussions on this. It's due to the design of the engine, but there are ways to reduce it greatly as well as clean your valves. Good luck getting them to "take ownership" of it. In the meantime, check out the DIY section. There is a step by step how to clean it yourself.

 

I am gathering evidence!

Repairing it myself would leave out all of those who cannot do the work themself.

Bad engineering, or should I say, bad engineering that is denied cannot be tolerated.

 

Carbon buildup is a direct injection problem not a Mini problem. Every direct injection engine generates carbon buildup over time.

The R56 does seem to be creating buildup a little faster then normal, but the problem is universal to direct injection engines.

 

Op, is this a poll? You want to know who in Ohio has carbon issues in their r56.

 

It is a by product of the beast.

Not MAGs issue or any other dealer. They didn't build the car or select the motor supplier. As previously stated, there are other threads that detail how to care for the motor and keep it as clean as possible.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but sometimes you have to pick your battles. And there are times when you might need MAG on your side.

If you are no longer under warranty and looking for an alternative solution, look up John Best at bestmotorwerks.com. He is a MINI/BMW shop on the east side of Cbus.

If you don't mind a little drive then Chad @ DetroitTuned is THE MAN.

 

Lost my last post!

Yes this is a call to all Ohioans who have had carbon issues.

05r50... I think I was not clear, Mini and MAG denied problem is with engine.

Try calling Mini USA and inquiring about problem.

I did! Wow what a sidestep!! First it was gas ( we have every receipt for every gallon of gas) all from Shell or BP all premium. So it shifted to maintaining sunroof, I am not kidding.
Then it was my car only, finally " there is nothing we can do"

So.... we are collecting evidence for legal action....


Have you had any carbon issues?

Was any dealer maintenance taken towards preventing issue?

Was it under warranty factory or third party.

Were you made aware of issue at time of purchase? For example was the service listed in your maintenance schedule?

What is your story?

 

Have you had any carbon issues?

Every direct injection car will develop carbon issues. Its not a question about when or if, it is a forgone conclusion.

Was any dealer maintenance taken towards preventing issue?

It can't be prevented. It can be slowed or removed entirely. But the carbon buildup can not be stopped in a direct injection engine. At least not by means available to the dealer.

Was it under warranty factory or third party.

Does any third party warranty cover walnut blasting?

Were you made aware of issue at time of purchase? For example was the service listed in your maintenance schedule?

Does any company that sells direct injection cars tell people before they purchase that they will inevitably develop carbon buildup?

 

Oh a side note...

We have lodged a complaint with Shell, informing them that MAG and MINI have declared that their gas is the cause of the problem.

Interesting to see what happens.

 

Creeve

Have you had the chance to read "Direct injection fouls some early adopters" in AutoObserver?

Seems that some engines are not subject to the problem to the extend as the N14.
Ford just tested DI to 160,000 miles with out significant buildup, plus Cadillac has been doing it for awhile and Porsche.

It can be done, demand better!

 

JeoRider, the gasoline company is not the issue. The issue, simply stated, is that this is a dry induction engine. Nothing but air and PCV blow-by enters the intake tract. The gasoline is fired into the combustion chambers directly, so no matter how much carb cleaner or fuel injection witch's brew you dump down her throat, it wont make a hill of beans because it bypasses the intake valves. The only way to keep them truly clean is a meth injector kit that wets the intake. An oil catch can system is a huge help but will not eliminate it, regular SeaFoam treatments will help remove existing buildup. BMW is is no way, shape or form going to pay for anything for you, they wont even fix the junk timing system or the crap themostat assemblies that they are responsible for and wont take ownership over.

 

+1000. What you want is a new engine! Anything with manifold injection will do!

DI engines without a "fifth injector" will always have carbon issues. Just ask Porsche and Audi!! Most auto makers have not opted for this option because of cost, fuel economy, and emissions issues (pointing at government). You want more power, efficiency, and torque from a direct injection engine? There will always be a downside somewhere!

 

Read it.

So Cadillac does have problems, just fewer.

"Digging into online threads about Cadillac’s 3.6-liter DI V6 in its popular CTS lineup does reveal some owner concerns about carbon build-up, but it’s difficult to find even a single report that any build-up has actually occurred – a record that is notable considering that Cadillac has sold more than 200,000 CTS models with DI V6s (Audi sold fewer than 2,000 RS 4s in the US during its two-year sales run)."

Carbon buildup happens most during short trips where the engine is not brought up to temp. 160,000 miles done at high rpm and full engine temp would logically have less buildup.

"Ford was confident enough about its popular 3.5 liter EcoBoost direct-injection V6 to have technicians tear down an example engine that had accumulated the equivalent of 160,000 miles through an intentionally abusive regimen of log dragging, high-speed towing and desert racing."

It is obvious that that the R56 has a severe carbon buildup issue. My point was this is a wide spread problem that spans across many manufacturers. Because of that I doubt you are going to gain much traction against Mini on this topic. If Mini agrees to pay for peoples carbon cleaning it sets a precedent the entire car industry might be forced to follow.

 

OP- You're not getting much sympathy from other owners... are you? I'll go ahead and give you unsolicited advice; I hope you find it helpful.

This is what happened to me:

I got cheap and started filling up from Costco Gas... I even filled it up with 87 octane. I know, really dumb. [I am NOT implying you did the same].

Not surprisingly, engine begins to feel unresponsive (~ 5000 miles), lacking that "powered" feeling. MPG dropped significantly as well (about 20% - from 30 to 24mpg). Needless to say I was bummed.

After researching the issue quite a bit, I tried BG44K and I immediately noticed a difference. Sadly, at 8000 miles my mini's performance began to decay, so another BG44K treatment went into the mini and it was almost back to normal.

The problem with BG44K is that it's not widely available, and it can be pricy.

More research later and seafoam appeared to be the answer to my mini's woes. Now- I am probably the worst DY kind of guy, but decided to give it a try at ~15,000 miles. Wow- what a difference! The car had its original responsiveness; it had that go-kart feeling back; it had ZEST! Coincidence? Maybe. You be the judge.

I again did the seafoam treatment at 25,000. The car has logged 35,000 and I am about to do another. To put things in perspective, I got 34mpg on a congestion-free long drive (400 + miles) that averaged about 70 mph. Not bad, huh?

Do yourself a favor and try some of the non-expensive treatments and see where they take you. It may just save you a LOT of time, and headaches.

Best of luck on whichever route you decide to take.

 

I've had this issue come up twice in my 40k miles on my '10 MCS.

The first recommendation was to use a fuel-additive like Techron, but when I pointed out that in a DI system the fuel doesn't actually touch the injectors, they kind of back-pedaled.

The first dealer I took it to at ~18k miles when this happened gave it a walnut-shell blasting that cleared out the carbon.
It happened again at about 27k miles, and another dealer did the same walnut-shell treatment but also replaced my fuel injectors.

It hasn't happened since then.

I will say that I started using a bottle of Techron every 1000 miles or so since the last incident. I know it never touches the valves, but it seems to be safer-than-sorry, especially when I have written info from Mini telling me to do so.

I haven't spent a penny on this sort of repair, and I'll be damned if I ever do. The onus on this one is clearly on Mini, I don't care if this is inherent to the design of a DI engine or not. They have actively sold a product with a known issue.
When it comes up, it becomes undriveable and it has nothing to do with anything that I am actively doing to(or preventing from happening to) the vehicle.
That has "warranty" written all over it in my book.

 

Thanks Beam!! You have made it worth while

Clubman S, Of course it is not the gas, but can you imagine a clash of the titans?
Plus it narrows Mini's escape route.

Carefull folks on the additives, one of the SIMs says that it is a violation of warranty.

As far as gas not hitting valves, that is not true. Combustion chamber swirl, and pressure differential does allow some of the fresh charge to come into contact with the valve. Not to any degree which causes the carbon issue, but it does do it.

Now for those of us who have seen the inside of an engine or believe that a company should not lie. Read on

The effort is to force Mini to admit that the driver is not at fault or some other scape goat of the day is the cause.

The issue is warranty related because it is a breakdown of the emissions systems, period.

I believe in the power of the free market, and with this wonderful forum, where we are all just seconds away. We have tremoundous power to demand honesty from a company.

If you demand a premium vehicle and service, then the fight is this way. Complacency is towards the rear.

 

Jeo, this is really going to be academic, but the swirl/etc question would only be possibly applicable to a wet manifold system. The BMW DI, as do the GM 3.6L et all, injests the air charge first, closing the valves as usual by cam rotation, then fires the injector milliseconds before the spark plug lights off. This is the only way you can avoid knock in an 11:1 static CR gasoline engine under 11 to 18 lbs boost, normally that would be the fast road to catastrophic engine destruction, which is why most turbos run a 8.5:1 or so static CR. Its the only way to stay alive. Its impossible to have knock w/o fuel, so this is the only possible way to do it. Some DI engines are hybrid DI, they have 8 (or 12) injectors, one inside each cylinder and one in a standard port-firing location, and they will switch back and forth based on load and throttle conditions. I dont envy the PCM programmers trying to get that transition to happen smoothly, but w/ lightning-fast processors, I guess it isnt an issue.

 

Not to rain on your parade, but you aren't the first one to be frustrated with the carbon build up. You're not the first one to gripe about having to have it fixed, or fix it yourself. As has been discussed ad nauseum, it's an inherent byproduct of the design of the motor. To have any expectations to take successful legal action against MINI, or the gas company, is highly unrealistic.

It's not a matter of just "lying down and taking it", and it's admirable that you seem so eager to gather the troops to fight for the little guy. But I think you're picking the wrong battle to fight. Cars with DI, no matter who makes them, are going to face this issue. I'm sure as time goes on, and new technology develops, the problem will get less and less. However, I don't think you're going to get anywhere with this one.

Like I said, not trying to rain on your parade. If you want to do it, have at it. Just don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of backing or support. Plus, with all due respect, the way your coming across in your posts is like it's all a huge conspiracy theory, MINI is the "big bad guy" and you're out to tackle the world in hero fashion. Probably a bit of a turn off for a lot of folks.

 

Hi Klayfish

I suspect you are correct I do have a tendency to take issues like this personally.

It is hard to justify on a post or forum, unless you kind folks are privy to the whole story. In short I will relay the details which led to the indignation.

Brought MCS in with misfire problem, at 30K Dealer could not find problem.

Back in at 50K this time with info from net, asked to have valves checked, once again no problem found

Back in CEL stalling etc at 55K, begged for solution, same answer.

Back in at 70K same problem, same answer.

Back in at 97K pleaded to have valves checked for carbon, paid extra for diagnosis fee. Answer No Carbon on Valves

Back in one month later, CEL stalling etc.... Now they find carbon on valves.

Have some sympathy for the devil.

 

Jeo, I feel your pain and were not in theory disagreeing, but this is a DI problem known throughout the world and sadly has no simple fix. MY opinion would be that the hybrid DI system would be the only one that most "joe/josephine average" drivers would live with, 99.5% pf people are not going to accept that they have to regularly refill a meth tank in the trunk and pay attention when the "low methanol" lamp illuminates on the dash. Same problem with an OCC system, which is effective but requires periodic servicing to drain n capture. An "OCC full" lamp?
We are the lunatic fringe and so live with quirks like these because we use and drive these cars as they were meant to be driven and so hence are stiffening the springs and swaybars and adding poly motor mounts to make the car ride like a truck and handle like an F1. The nature of the beast.

 

Rather than working the class action angle, if you have enough documentation, you can try small claims against the dealer.

Not saying it will work but sometimes they will come back with goodwill in the face of a legal action. And who knows, maybe you could win.

 

slinger688...

That is the plan, rules of evidence are different, affidavites are allowed in small claims. No luck so far with any other Mini owners, sadly.

Clubman S..

Thanks for the info on the intake cycle, I incorrectly assumed that they would take advantage of the inlet flow for effective mixing of charge. Do they rely on injector dynamics as sole mixing agent?

Further I think we agree somewhat on the issue at hand. My hope is to have Mini acknowledge the problem up front, as you say "The nature of the beast".

I feel their clandestine approach only spurs further inquiries and mistrust. I would gladly accept the nature of the beast if Mini was helping its fan base instead of blaiming them, or gas or lunar phases.

Then to further insult, their preventative solution is akin to reading the entrails of a chicken.

 

Jeo,
Definitely understand your frustration. Of course, nobody knows for sure what the problems were in the various times you brought the car in. Could be carbon, could have been something else. If you're at 97k+ miles, then you most certainly have some kind of carbon build up. Heck, it's awesome you've gotten that far.

Unfortunately, I think having that many miles is further ammunition for why MINI/BMW wouldn't take the costs of cleaning your valves. It would be a much stronger argument if the car had 20k or 15k miles.

 

Klayfish

It had 30K the first time it showed up, for 70K I using binoculars to make sure no traffic was coming before I pulled out of driveway in morning.

Ok slight exageration, but some cold mornings the Amish were passing me. One of our races, I won, the rattling diesel combined with the rear tire noise frightened the horse.

Well you get the picture..

 

Jeo,

If it is small claims, does the testimonials have to be Ohio centric.

Really sorry to hear about your problems with the car.