I like the IA upgrade in a box Idea and I actually like their products BUT.... It's way expensive. I would consider it if they offered installation (they are based out of NY?)

Anyone know of an alternative to IA's product or a set up that would be comparable?

 

Not that I know of. You could piece together a system yourself, and either pay to have it installed or install it yourself.

Some of what you are paying for with the Integral set up is your time. You don't have to hunt around for individual components, you don't have to build anything custom, it saves you a headache and they make is super easy to install yourself. That is worth quite a bit, so when you look at the price don't just look at the physical components you are getting.

With that said, I am building my system part by part. It probably won't sound as good as the Integral setup, will take me months to complete, but it will be less than half the cost.

 

I recently took delivery of my JCW Roadster. Before I ordered it, I was convinced that I wanted a better audio system than even the upgrade HK system would provide, so I ordered the Mini with the base audio system knowing that it would be replaced by something far better. While waiting for the car to be built and delivered, I spent some time looking for audio alternatives. My initial search took me to the Integral Audio site and at first blush, I was pleased to see that a non-obtrusive subwoofer could be fitted into the roadster as well as nice upgrades for amp and speakers. The price did give me pause but that was all I found doing a search on the internet. I went to my local audio professional shop (been doing business with them for 30+ years) to get their opinion on the I/A system. They said they could do much better and gave me three options. First of all, let me say that they suggested that the tweeters mounted in the A-pillars were not all that necessary so all three quotes they gave me had the tweeters mounted in the doors, along with the mid-range speakers. The first quote gave me comparable but somewhat better speakers to the I/A speakers but had a slim-line sub mounted in a carpet matched box that fit in the trunk. The sub enclosure was approximately 24" wide, 14" deep and 8" tall, made by Kenwood. It could be removed for extra space when needed. Price installed and out the door is $1,350. The second quote is the same speakers and amps but the sub is custom mounted in the trunk space just like the sub is mounted in the I/A system where the sub is hidden in a false floor and the space loss is minimal. Price $1,515 installed and out the door. These two systems are 3-channel systems like the I/A system. The third quote was for an "over the top" system with highly upgraded 5 channel amp, speakers, and a very new "slim line" sub that is a total of 2 1/2" tall and 13 1/2" diameter. This sub is fitted into the trunk beneath a false floor like the I/A system. Total cost installed and out the door was right at $2,500. I am well aware that the folks at I/A will have reasons to insist that their system might be "better engineered" for audio quality and thus the higher prices and a "better sound". I am not here to argue the virtues of the overall quality or "audio experience" from an engineers ears. I am simply looking for a better sound system at a lower price. I believe that is what I found by shopping at my local audio specialist. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

I was a bit high on my cost for option #3. My cost for this option, installed and out the door is $2,356, virtually the same as the I/A cost with far better amp and speakers. Components on this system are as follows: JL HD900/5 5-channel amp, 500 watt for sub and 100 watts for each of four speakers. JL C5 525 5" component speakers X 4. JL 13TW5-3 600 watt sub 2.5" high. Also includes a sub volume control switch. None of the above systems will in any way alter the originality of your Mini and when finished, you will not be able to see the changes except the false floor in the trunk for the sub and an obscure mounting location for a bracket for the sub volume control switch. My audio shop is searching for a sub volume control switch that will fit into the vacant space where normally the rear fog light switch would be fitted. How cool would that be?

 

mrvivtor.. I can't wait to upgrade my roadster's setup!

 

While they are name brand (JL) speakers, I don't necessarily think they are better. (that IA tweeter looks awful familiar... dynaudio? Seas?) Also, ARC makes some of the best amps available. The JL does put out more power, but the rule of thumb is double the power equals 3 db louder. So, just form the amp, going from 250 rms to 500 rms, you get 3db, which is right where the human ear can tell the difference. Now, what the speaker / box does with that power (efficiency) is a whole different story. Anyway, the amp in the Integral setup is pretty stout, definitly not some flea market brand, and I would rather run ARC amps than JL amps.

Once again, with all that said, I'm building my own system for under $400 ( I already have my amp). It won't be as nice as your JL setup or the Integral system.

 

I would love to hear from IA on who makes their speakers... if they are indeed very high quality... it would explain a lot

 

Dayton Audio.

Also, the concept of not requiring tweeters in the a-pillars and putting them in the doors would give me pause regarding the credibility of your shop. I can't agree that this is a better solution. Also, how is your shop tuning this system to "fit" the characteristics of the car acoustically?? Integral Audio has done a lot of work in this area as I understand it. I will end saying this. How good your system is can be more dependent on the quality of the install then the level of equipment. I've seen and heard some very high end stuff that sounded only ok. On the flip side, heard equipment sound way better then it should.

And no, I don't have an IA system in my mini.

 

The question that started this post was simply "is there an alternative to I/A" I did some research on my own and answered the question with what I had learned. I did not proclaim in any way to be an expert in the field of audio. But of course you always seem to get replies from others who have nothing better to do than to prove another person wrong as Dayton Audio attempted to do with my post. One part of his statement said it "gave him pause regarding the credibility of my shop". Well PAL, when you don't have the knowledge on how to use correct words in your sentences, gives me pause in anything you might have to offer. Here are a couple of examples...you said "more dependent on the quality of the install then the level of equipment. The correct word is "THAN" not "then".....same for "heard equipment sound way better "THEN" it should. Again, the correct word is than...not then. I certainly would not believe anything a person has to offer if he cannot even know how to use common language and words correctly. But lets move on to the real issue: Whether the speakers are in the A pillar or not is not something I care about. The inside of a Mini is not a professional recording sound studio where everything has to be absolutely perfect. It is the inside of a car and I understand that for what it is. I want a fast fun car to burn some rubber going over a fun road 50 MPH beyond the recommended limit...and to go with that car experience is a loud audio system with plenty of base...take the top down and turn up the tunes and wear out some brake pads...and smile all the time you are doing it. I frankly don't give a damn if the audio system has been perfectly fitted for the car...just give me LOUD AND GIVE ME FUN....I know that the "self proclaimed experts" who occasionally chime in on these forums have a huge ego problem...This is not why I read these forums...I want to learn...Having said that, I am done with reading any of this forum...I am moving on to live life on a far happier note. Best to all,

 

And while you are correcting people its bass not base....
yes there are plenty alternatives to IA but the question is do you wanna do all the legwork of building a system part by part and then tuning it to get the most of it?

My Dream system for my future MINI consists of parts that cost way more than the system that IA provides in just drivers (Hybrid Audio Legatia SE/Carbon)... then add the subs, amps, wire, deadening, tuning equipment, etc and we are talking double maybe triple the price... look at Neil J's system he has spent the money put in the time and still isn't complete. If you decide to go this route you better be quite ready or else the system will not perform the way you want it to.

 

Ok mrvivtor, maybe you'll read this and maybe not. Apparently you've left for something better. But I'll post up some more thoughts just in case anyone else is thinking or wondering about the same.


If you are looking for a better sound system compared to Factory, then the "shop" is likely correct, maybe. The factory system is really poor. But why do I say maybe? If you take the best equipment and install it poorly, it will sound bad. Install is critical to the end result. It's not an elitist attitude and is actually the very opposite. You CAN use lower standard gear and with some homework make it sound pretty incredible if the install is of a high standard. People that name drop the big audio brands worry me. Why?? Because they mislead others following in their footsteps. Without understanding the whole picture of what it takes to build something nice you are doing yourself a huge injustice. There's more to it then just expensive equipment. Just because you pay for and install top of the line Alpine or Focal, etc doesn't guarantee you sonic bliss.

But this in not what mrvivtor said. He took the IA system to his experienced shop to see if they could do better for cheaper. They gave him three options. Where this all falls apart is in mrvivtor's definition of what BETTER is. This hasn't been stated. But if were comparing the IA system that's a solid all around performer, I assumed he's looking for something that can pretty much do it all. Apples to apples. No?? Maybe that's the problem. I'm assuming this is where he's coming from ?!?! And then the thread went all down the drain.

So listen, if you want to learn something, you have to be able to take the constructive criticism too. I've had to many times and most of the time been better off for it. And my comments were directed at your shop that was giving you their advice backed up by 30+ years of experience according to you. No one accused you of anything. I'm unsure as to why you've taken this all so personally or as a direct attack on you and take off. But the advice they have given you is flawed based on the information you have posted. I'd find it HIGHLY unlikely they can do so "much better" as you state then the IA setup with the gear you've listed for the same price. As to why you take offense to this personally is beyond me. Your reaction is of someone that actually DOESN'T want to learn anything and hasn't done any homework on the facts.

I would have been more then happy to talk to you on these forums about your audio goals and point you in directions I have found that work (possibly) for a better price. But that ain't gunna happen now, eh

 

Well that got out of hand quickly!

 

 

Even though this thread has turned into a shouting match, I thought I would add my own experience with the IA system. I would be surprised if I could go to an audio shop and that they could build me a system that sounds as great in my MINI as the one designed by IA. That being said, if I took the system out and installed it in an other car, it might not be so great. It was built for our cars specifically and I have found that its so well tuned that I have the bass and treble set flat, and it sounds spot on. I have some experience with high end audio so I know a well tuned system when I hear one. Crisp highs, accurate midrange and clean low bass.
I'm sure a better system COULD be built for our cars, but I doubt that it would be cheaper than the IA Soundstage and sub combo.

 

Well even tho no one really gave me an alternative "in-a-box" like the IA system... this is probably the most helpful comment of all... I might bite the bullet and pick this system up...

the tuning for me is key... if the AI system helps with this... its worth it... cuz, me on my own, wouldn't know how to tune it.

 

A big problem here is that you have to have some pretty significant knowledge of audio to understand the real benefit of our systems. I'm working to get a knowledge/learning section up on our site to help in this regard. It is impossible to overstate this: The biggest driver of how a system will sound is the space it is placed in. This is even more true in a vehicle than in a typical listening room. The second biggest is a mix of system integration/engineering and component quality.

Basically, you need every part of the system to work together at working with the space, and you want quality components to do it. Any off-the-shelf set of speakers will sound 10 different ways in 10 different cars. That's because critical design decisions that affect the sound HAD to be made before the speakers were built.

Sure, it's nice that our systems are plug-n-play, and that every piece of hardware is precision manufactured EXACTLY for your vehicle, and that we use components that rival anything available at even twice the price. But the the real benefit is in the vehicle-specific acoustic engineering. Take that away and you're left with what you'd get at a local shop (it would still cost you more to get the same level of component quality at the local shop...see below).

A local shop simply cannot replicate what we do. They don't have the equipment, the skills, nor the manufacturing capability, and even if they did it would cost more than a new JCW to replicate what we do on your car. They'll tell you they can, but you'd be a fool to believe them. Installers are technicians, not engineers. Do you think the guy who is installing your brakes could engineer them? Would you want him to?

In terms of price, sure, our systems aren't cheap. But they are hands-down the best value. If you think you are getting a better deal at a local shop, consider this: Virtually every shop and aftermarket audio supplier work on a 100% retail markup, so that $400 set of speakers cost them $200. It cost the manufacturer about $40 - about 10% of what you ultimately pay. In our case we ARE the manufacturer. Our costs are dramatically lower, so that same $400 with us would get you $200 of raw component costs (vs. $40 with the local guy), and the vast majority of the remaining $200 goes to R&D, support, and other things that contribute to the value you receive. The other $360 with the local guy? A fraction goes to R&D at the manufacturer, the rest goes to overhead, floor staff, etc. You don't need to understand anything about audio to understand that part.

 

When is a R60 kit coming is my question? I have been into Car Audio for 25 years and built some great systems from cheap to expensive. Now at 40 and a wife that doesn't want 4 18's taking up the hatch and tweeters drilled across the dash, I am stuck with stock or quality systems like IA that are mostly stealth. Plus they have done the homework for me.

 

We will be working on it this fall in parallel with the E9X/F30 BMW 3-series. Hope to have it available early 2013.

 

Kevin,


does the kit replace the rear speakers or just the front 2 in the door (plus tweeter)? if not, does this seem incomplete?

 

There is a lot of misinformation & misconception out there on the subject of the rear speakers. Here's the deal: you do NOT want the rear speakers to be anything other than rear fill. And at the levels required for rear-fill the cost and trouble of upgrading them far outweighs the very small benefit in the MINI.

Having the rear speakers provide more than just rear-fill will destroy your imaging and soundstage by sending confusing cues to your ear-brain. This is particularly true in the MINI where your ears are closer to the rear speakers than the front speakers. Think about this: do you go to a concert and sit facing backwards? What about at home in your living room?* Ever notice that there are NEVER rear speakers at a concert?**

A detailed description of the reason is beyond the scope of quick post, but here's a brief summary: The ear-brain is a very complex system, and it uses VERY small differences between what the left and right ears hear to determine the location of a sound in space (for more info look up Head-related Transfer Function, Interaural Time Difference, and Interaural Intensity Difference). Stereo is by definition 2-channel, and was mixed and intended to be reproduced on 2 channels. Adding rear speakers in a car makes 4 channels, with the rears exactly duplicating the fronts. This means that a sound that should be coming from ONLY the front right channel is now also coming from behind you, AND arriving at a different time. Your ear-brain can't figure out how to integrate these sounds, and you lose the ability to locate where the sound should be in space - no more imaging! Why have the rears at all you ask, given the above? That's a whole other subject, but the short answer is that they are there to provide "Spaciousness" (yes, that actually is a technical term, see Geddes et al for more research) and substitute for reflections that you would get in a typical reverberant room. I'll be putting a more detailed description of this on an upcoming refreshed version of our website.

In our Soundstage system for the MINI, the rear speakers continue to operate the same way they did before the upgrade, but the levels are reduced to where they should be. The ideal solution would be to time-delay the rears in addition to reducing the levels, but this would add tremendous expense for a small benefit that very few would notice - not something that makes sense in this case.


*This is different situation when you are talking about true multi-channel reproduction (5.1, etc), but ONLY if the music was actually mixed and distributed in this format (i.e. SACD, DVD-A). This is an EXTREMELY small fraction of the available content (less than 5%), and applies to an even smaller fraction of the population.
**Some venues have some significant DSP capabilities and do a number of things with it, in those cases you might see other speakers but it does not apply to 2-ch audio.

 

I have the IA sub and Soundstage installed in my JCW for over a year. I agree with the above statement. I also have bass and treble set flat.

 

well i think my rear speakers are blown.... any suggestions when integrating with your system?

 

Sorry for the delay responding. There are a number of options - shoot me a PM and I'll give you my suggestions.

 

Great information

 

Yeah this is great info!

The IA guys have it TOGETHER. Just too expensive for a family man
using a base cooper as a commuter.

They are by far the first choice you should go with if you have the money.