I've posted on this topic a couple of times. Everyone says run Hoosier tires but when I've looked them up I find that the closest width is a 215 vs the stock 195. Will this fit? It seems a bit wide for the stock rim. I ran the season on the run flats and it was ok during the beginning of the season but by the end I was very frustrated. You wallow around the course and you have two choices, drive slow and within the limits of the run flats or slide around. This year I'm going to an R compound tire.

 

I ran the majority of last season on Falken Azenis. They were nice, but didn't like to be too hot, which down here in Charleston, SC, it could be a problem.


David
-V--V-

 

215's are no problem. I ran 215 Kumho MX's this year in our street tire class on stock 17 inch rims and had no problem. I ran the run flats one weekend at the beginning of the season and the new tires made a huge difference. Next year I plan on probably getting Azenis for street tire class. In our area there is much more competition in street tire than in GS. Its no fun only running against 2 or 3 cars.

 

I just bought a set of shaved Ecsta V700's from Tire Rack in 205-45-16. I hear the 225-50-16's will rub slightly. The Hoosiers are too pricey for me, at least for local competition.

 

I run 215-40-16" Azenis on 16"x6.5" 44mm offset wheels with no rubs.

Tom

 

I've gone through 3 or 4 sets of the 215/40R16 Hoosier A3S03's and R3S03's and they fit fine. Now, I've got a wheel with 45mm offset instead of 48mm, but many people have run them with stock wheels fine.

In the autocross community, you'll truly find out how much tire fits on a wheel, especially in Stock class where the competitor can't go to a wider wheel.

Here's a couple of top Nationally competitive combos to make you feel a bit easier about this:

Miata's run 225/45R15's on a 15x6" wheel
National champ, Rob Carpenter ran his 1st gen CRX on 225/50R13's on a 13x5" wheel!!

Brian

 

I am a novice running only 10 SCCA regional events this year and maybe one or two extra in the next door region (seat time as much as possible). Can I stretch the life of a set R compound tires more than one season, or are they truly toast after a single season? I need to get two seasons out of a set of tires. Am I dreaming? I know I won't be running at the top for a while, but I am a competitive S.O.B.

 

The new Hoosier A3S04 is supposed to have better life than a A3S03. But for longeity try Kumhos.

 

Because the MINI is camber challenged, you'll never get more than a season of "good" tire life.
If you're running with camber plates, and run a Kumho Victoracer, you may be able to get a couple of seasons.
Then again, how many events will you be attending? Do you overdrive?

In a Miata on 205/50R15 Kumho Victoracer V700's with great negative camber settings, I ran for 120 runs on a set.

I don't think there's a Victo in a good 17 or 16" size for your S. So your best tire life may be from a 205/45R16 Kumho Ecsta V700 (SHAVED!) or Hoosier "R"3S04. I've gotten 65 runs from an R3S03 on a stock Cooper and S, and the new tire is supposed to last longer.
There's still a possibility of the Kumho Ecsta V710 being offered in a good size, we'll see.

Brian

 

I have heard that the Kumho Ecsta V 700's can be remounted "inside out" or flipped since it has a symetrical tread pattern? If the lack of negative camber is the issue on the excessive outside wear, is this the solution? What about tires that have a asymetrical tread?

Will shaving the tread increases the life or performance of a dry only tire?

_________________
Big Fun at Tire Rack Solo II

 

Both Kumhos, Hoosiers, and Toyos can all be "flopped" on the rims, regardless of tread pattern. By the time you get to that point, they're bald anyway. It only has to do with construction and most are symmetrical.

The Ecsta V00 has such aweful tread squirm at full tread, if they're not shaved they will blister and radically decrease their life. Shaving helps that a little.

Brian

 

Can you drive the shaved V700's to the track, lets say 50-80 miles round trip or will that significanly reduce their usefull life. I know the outside edges wear out first but what about the rest of the tread?

 

I would not recommend driving the Ecsta V700 to and from that far. They're softer, and don't heat cycle as efficiently, in my experience. That said, it can be done, I just don't think you'll get the life you should.
Changing at the event can be a pain, but is well worth it in the long run.

Brian

 

Another option that may sound odd....but affective. I started with the 205 V700 unshaven as it wasn't suggested and overlooked at the time. I ended up blistering the fronts after several autox's. Frustrated with the new kumho, I opted to try and old FWD trick. (225's up front, 205's in rear) With the monza 16x6.5" wheel at 44 offset, you can fit a 225/50 victoracer without rubbing up front. I kept the good set of 205 V700's for the rear. With the 225 Victoracers up front, you get a much more forgiving tire that doesn't need shaving. With the 205's dedicated to the rear, you'll be able to get two seasons out of them as they are mostly along for the ride. The victo's should last a full season of local action up front and you can flip them inside out half way through the season to prolong life. This setup does work and will help get some rotation from the rear. I ran this setup the rest of the season and did resonably well with this setup, taking 2nd at the NE Div just behind Jeff Jacobs. I ran this at Topeka and although I took home a 10th trophy, I had put koni's on the week before and had too much rotation dialed in so had to slow down in the slaloms to keep the back in planted. With the stock struts, this wasn't a ploblem and the car just loved the slaloms...with the tail sliding just slightly but very confident and fast. I ran a recommended Koni setup at Topeka but it was based on 215 hoosier traction all around so it wasn't right for my tire setup. Topeka isn't the place to tinker with adjustments on the fly. I'm taking the financial bite of the Hoosiers this season but if you are on a budget, it works well. Realize too that the 225/50 is a bigger diameter tire but I felt the benefit of the victo compound outweiged the larger size and weight.

Jeff

 

Jeff,
I've thought about the 215/205 combination as a way of helping control wheel spin. Does the difference in tire diameter mess with the computer stuff like tire pressure, DSC, etc?
Thanks Gary

 

While that 225/50R16 - 205/45R16 combination does work, and has been done on several other FWD cars (ITR for example), it causes some issues that may not be worth it.
You're not saving as much on tire life as it seems since you're not able to fully rotate with the different sizes. Although, you're probably getting a little more than running the 205/45R16 Ecsta's all around.
You're putting yourself in the position of dialing in with two very different compounds. The rear is just dragged around, but will still have better grip than the Victo's.
As the tires heat cycle, their qualities are different and will change the handling.
The difference between concrete and asphalt is very different between these two tires.

One thing I can definitely see doing it for though, it what Jeff is using it for, the fact that the Victo's won't blister and can handle the abuse well.

I'm shocked you can fit a 225/50R16 Kumho on the front, the Hoosier definitley does not fit. I tried running that for more contact patch and less wheel spin because of the big change in diameter. It may have fit if I used every last millimeter of the rules but I was already pretty close with my wheels.

Gary, running a 215 in the front won't necessarily tame wheel spin. It's the larger diameter and weight (of a 225/50R16) that does that. In reality, you end up having to learn to modulate either way.

For this year, I would highly suggest using the Hoosier R3S04's in a 205/45R16. They're expensive, but I can see them lasting as long as a Kumho if they are truly going to last longer than the S03's. We ran the R3S03's for 65 runs in 2002, winning the Peru Pro at the END of their life.
If the S04's last longer than that (which they should), I could see getting close to 100 runs out of them. BUT, this is not confirmed at all...

Brian

 

I've been monitoring this thread and I'm going to take the plunge with the A4S04 Hoosiers. They look like they will fit the best, and their isn't much cost difference by the time you get them herat cycled. The Kumho tires are cheaper, but they want them heat cycled and shaved. I am worried about wear as this pair HAS to last me the entire season. I spent money on the stock rims, which came with new tires so I don't have to buy a new set of run flats, which I shreaded last year Autocrossing. I will get this pair mounted, and that takes the last of the Autocross money for this year.

Any Ideas about where to start for pressures?

 

>>I am worried about wear as this pair HAS to last me the entire season. >>
>>Any Ideas about where to start for pressures?

Then DON'T get the A3S04's! If the tire has to last the season, your closest shot will be the R3S04's. Then again, how many runs are in your "season"? I'm guessing the A3S04's will get you about 50 usable runs, whereas the R3S04's may get you close to 100 runs.

From people running them, the obviously stiffer carcass construction does not require as much air as the previous model. The rear never "requires" a certain pressure since it's being dragged around and the pressure determines the handling characteristic. So, I am probably going to start at about 38psi in the front, using a pyrometer to check it carefully. If I wasn't doing shocks, the rear for my tastes would be set at about 45-48 psi to create rotation.

By the way everyone, we have yet to see the measurements of the late-to-be-introduced 215/40R16 A&R3S04, but the 205/45R16 in the new compound is almost the same dimensions (width & height) of the older A&R3S03 215/40R16. I found that very interesting

Brian

_________________
2002 SCCA Pro Solo H Stock Champion/ STX Cooper S in 2003/G Stock Cooper S in 2004. Moderator: PRO SOLO and G STOCK
garfield@northamericanmotoring.com

 

Fast Guy's,
As I'm running Novice this year and have a long way to go to run with the fast guys, I was going to run Azenis. I noticed you mentioned that the larger diameter Victoracers tire (225/50/16) may help a little in controlling wheel spin comming off corners. Would this be true with the street compound Azenis? I see the Azenis is offered in a 205/55/16 with a 24.9" diameter and a 215/45/16 with a 23.5" diameter. I would give up 4/10th " in width. I know the 205/55 will fit as I have a 215/45/17 tire with the same diameter (or damn close). What do you think?

PS. the taller tire is also $21.00 cheaper (more money for post race beer etc...) :smile:

 

Here's my take on your situation:
You're going to run on street tires, so that eliminates R compounds from the equation. Since you're a novice, the difference in width will hardly be noticeable. If it's going to save you $21 per tire, that's a pretty good savings. The increased diameter will tame the wheel spin, although VERY minimal, almost unnoticeable.

To me, the bottom line is that you're a novice and you can save money, I'd say do that. :smile:

Brian

 

Wheelspin - I think the bottom line is while you can do a few tricks to help reduce wheel spin out of corners, you're always going to have it in this car without an LSD so you just need to adjust your driving style to suit the setup. You can't mash the throttle on exit....you need to concentrate on being smooth all the way through the corner so you can carry as much speed as possible out of it. This starts at the previous corner (or earlier!). You have to be correct at the previous gate to setup correctly for the gate you are coming out of and getting wheelspin. From there, feed in throttle until you get pointed straight and then mash it to the floor until you need to brake next.

Wheel spin is also not bad in all cases. I think I recall from reading a book at some point that optimum adhesion is at a 10% slip angle....so when launching, get the wheels spinning a little bit and work the throttle to keep them spinning until you get traction and they hook up on their own. Don't let off so much that all the spinning stops immediately, ease off a little if need be.....

Same would hold true on corner exit, as you start to roll on the throttle, if you get a little wheel spin, don't panic and release the pedal, if it's too much, ease off, otherwise just maintain that throttle position until it hooks up and then drop the hammer......

This being smooth was the toughest part I found getting into the MCS. My previous autoxer was an ITR so I was used to the LSD and being able to use more throttle and applying it earlier. Once you get used to it, it isn't as bad as it first seems....unless you blow the corner entry, then you knowingly get a little behind and start forgetting the basics and get anxious. SEAT TIME, it all about seat time.

225F / 205R application - Brian has valid points and while it worked for me, it was sort of a fix for the situation I had. I never thought too deeply into the different compound after the initial testing as it was working, however as Brian mentioned, after several dozen heat cycles, they may have gotten further away from each other. Now that he's said that, at Topeka, I had brand new shaved Victos up front and season old V700 out rear...plus the concrete....so I may have been asking for handling woes. It's all part of the learning experience. In search of tenths, you have to take risks and try different things....although mine may have been unguided and not particularly wise. The ITR's (Integra Type R) used this trick allot as well as the Neon guys...at least with Kumho's and it worked quite well. I never did see or hear of anyone doing this on hoosiers though so you'd be playing at your own risk. But with that setup, I use 6 tires in two local seasons so there was some financial gains to be had as well. From speaking with various people, to get the kind of runs Brian has referenced with Hoosiers, you really need to rotate them religiously and flip inside out....much more so than with the Victo's. I've only really run on Victo's, having only limited experience with the V700 at the beginning of last season but with the Victo's, you could run them hard until the pattern on the outside edge gets blue and scalloped before flipping inside out. Not sure if you can push the Hoosiers this far before flipping or not.....may need to do more to get the longevity....so be prepared to spend money at the local garage for tire work.

Jeff

 

>>Here's my take on your situation:
>>You're going to run on street tires, so that eliminates R compounds from the equation. Since you're a novice, the difference in width will hardly be noticeable. If it's going to save you $21 per tire, that's a pretty good savings. The increased diameter will tame the wheel spin, although VERY minimal, almost unnoticeable.
>>
>>To me, the bottom line is that you're a novice and you can save money, I'd say do that. :smile:
>>
>>Brian

Gee, 205/55-16 is the stock size for my WRX and it doesn't do anything to stop the wheels from spinning.

From my personal experience, I think the 55 aspect ratio is too great and you'll be disappointed with the tire roll over. I say damn the wheelspin and the 84 dollars and get the 215/45s.

 

It was stated earlier you might get 100 runs with R3S04's, how many runs might you get with shaved Ecsta V700's. What is the preformance difference between the two tires? Would a rookie notice the $45 difference between them?

_________________

 

The 100 runs was a wild guess could be 80, shouldn't be less, don't go on that until someone runs them. A shaved set of Ecsta "should" last longer than the Hoosiers, but it's all guessing right now.

Someone out there have a solid number of runs on Ecstas?

I honestly don't see any reason for a Novice to spend the money on Hoosiers.

Brian

 

>>The 100 runs was a wild guess could be 80, shouldn't be less, don't go on that until someone runs them. A shaved set of Ecsta "should" last longer than the Hoosiers, but it's all guessing right now.
>>
>>Someone out there have a solid number of runs on Ecstas?
>>
>>I honestly don't see any reason for a Novice to spend the money on Hoosiers.
>>
>>Brian


I don't have a solid number but I can tell you that I'm having a hard time even wearing out a set of Ecsta's. I'm on my second set but that's only because I bought a new set of full tread Ecsta's for rain tires at National's last year. The set I replaced had at least 40-50 runs on them plus a fair share street time and were still about half life. In fact they were still good enough that I ended up selling them for $150 after I mounted the new tires.

My new tires have about 30 runs on them so far and seem to be wearing almost identical. I really like the ecsta's....I've only run on the newer 6A compound but I've always been competitive on them. At Nationals I drove on Hoosiers for the first time I and can't say I really loved them.....I certainly didn't love the wear and didn't think they were worth the hassle of replacing after every other event. Of course my opinion is not a popular one and the majority of folks agree the Hoosier is a faster tire.......I say maybe, but at what expense?

That being said, can't wait until the 710 comes out in usable 16".