Okay, so as per my previous thread, I had resigned to polish my AB/WH MCSa by hand, using the stuff I already had (i.e. mostly Zaino stuff).
Besides, my area of residence is not making it easy for me to get an orbital and you know, actually use it without pissing off the neighbours

BUT !

A friend of mine was kind of amazed at the shiny/glossy aspect of Zaino (and in all fairness, it's nice !) and he offered to buy my remaining bottles. So that made me clear to get ze Prima products !

That left me with one final problem, the polisher : I can't find Porter Cable tools here, and I really don't want to deal with shipping costs and import taxes (which would make it not affordable anymore) nor using a huge step-up converter for it (we use 100V current here).

Then I saw that there's one small shop in Osaka that imports and sells Griot's Garage products, including their "Random Orbital Professional Machine" working on 100V. I ponder. I've seen that it's not an all time favourite of these boards. But I wanna join the fun! argh. uhm. screw it. I clicked "buy now".

Ok, so now I gotta get the products. E-mailed Nick from DP to see if I could add a couple of things before they shipped my previous order. They can ! (Nick rulez ) so I get Swirl, Amigo, Epic, Slick and Hydro (kenchan's all time fav'). Now for the pads : 1 of each : Orange, White, Black.

"But wait! didn't you say that you can't use that at your place ?" I can hear you scream.
Well, my boss has a country house 200km north of Tokyo, and he mentioned I could go crazy with the polisher over there if I helped him with his cars.

So I am in !!!

Ok, so after this very (too?) long narration, now the questions to you guys :

I've been searching like hell (right now I have about 32 tabs open in Safari with various Detailing 101 threads) but I can't find anything that really answers my questions.

With my Astro Black / White roof MCSa, how to tackle very fine swirls ? (cannot feel them, just see them at the right angles) After reading a lot here, I would come up with :

Swirl with white pad
Amigo with black pad
Epic by hand with the polishin' pal and a red pad (or would black be better?)
Hydro on the next day

I'm not sure about the pads, can I use Amigo with an orange pad for refining the results obtained with Swirl on the white pad ? or should I just stick with the black pad for the Amigo step ?

Any special recommendation for working on the Astro Black paint ?

 

I think you'll like the Griot's Polisher. I know it seems like everyone is using Porter-Cable, but I have the Griot's and several of my friends have bought them after using mine.

It's balanced well, the motor is comparable in power to the PC (a little more powerful, I think, but not enough to really matter), and I like the fact that the handle on the Griot's polisher is centered rather than offset.

Maybe if I were polishing 40+ hours a week, I'd feel a difference between the Griot's and PC, but they both really feel/perform the same for me.

 

As a rule you want to go from least aggressive to most when trying to remove swirls.
So start with a white pad and Swirl. If that fails step up to the orange pad. That should be more then enough but I'll bet the white and Swirl will get them.
Then you can go to white and Amigo.
followed by black and Epic or by hand - your choice.
I'm assuming here you got the Lake Country pads from DP.

 

Scott, that's great to hear ! Looking forward to trying it next week.

Yes I've gotten the LC pads from DP (they were labelled "Paradise 6" 1/2")
I've gotten only one of each (I know, in retrospect I should have gotten 2 of each), but I have the 4" pads I got with the polishin' pal (also LC pads).
I also understand to start with the least aggressive setup.
That's why I was wondering if Swirl with white pad and then Amigo with black pad was a sound working list ?

Then for Epic I think after all those years Zainoing, I feel confident to put a thin coat by hand. Just wondering which pad colour would work best ? black or red ? red is really extra soft.

 

I always use a white pad with Amigo. Helps to eliminate any really fine swirls and then is stiff enough to help fill any missed.
I'm not familiar with the red pad but I use the black pad and it is plenty soft for Epic. I guess softer wouldn't hurt anything as long as you get it on thin.

 

Yes - Swirl on a white pad followed by Amigo on a black (or white) pad will work for most conditions. Like MiniMaybee says, you can always go to the yellow pad for the Swirl if the white pad isn't agressive enough.

For the Epic, it has *no* abrasive qualities whatsoever since it's not meant for defect correction. As such, you can use the extra-soft red pad - the black pad won't give you any extra benefit with the Epic.

 

great stuff, thanks guys !

Another question, for Epic application by hand, is there any "recommended" direction to apply it ? What I mean by that is, for Zaino, it is recommended to apply it with front to back strokes on flat surfaces and up to down strokes for vertical surfaces.

Is there any such instruction for Epic ? or can I go with front/back/front/back and up/down/up/down straight motions ?

 

I've never understood the rationale for Zaino's instructions regarding the direction of application, and as far as I know, they're the only manufacturer that makes such a recommendation for a non-abrasive sealant. As long as you're applying an even coat and not missing any spots, it shouldn't matter.

 

The whole idea about which way to apply Zaino also holds true to just about any wiping you do to your paint. I tend to work front to back on horizontal surfaces, and up and down on vertical surfaces, the idea being that if you do induce light swirls they will be less noticeable if they are not going across a surface. A detailing guru here on on NAM explained this to me years ago, can't remember who it was, but if is also in one of the older stickies at the top of this forum.

Mark

 

First, I'm glad you were able to sell your Zaino and take the Prima plunge! I know you won't be disappointed. I'm also glad that we were able to alter your order for you. Your Customs Forms are being completed now and the package will be ready to ship within minutes!

The gang has already answered your questions very similarly to what I would answer too. The only thing I would mention is to be especially "light-handed" with your Astro Black. Although the metallic flake helps to hide slight imperfections, it is still black paint and will show more than many other colors. This is nothing to fear, just be sure to give the least aggressive approach a full chance of correction before bumping up to the next level of abrasiveness.

More specifically, designate a 4'x4' area (bonnet is usually easiest to work on) within which to find your personalized polish-pad prescription. Even between cars with the exact same paint, you can find slight variations in the way the paint will respond to different polish-pad combos. In your case, I would start with Swirl and the white pad. KEY POINT: Be sure to work the area long enough for the polish to breakdown well for you. Our polishes contain diminishing abrasives, which is part of why they work so well. You need to let them diminish for you for the best results. We usually recommend starting with about 4 minutes per section, although you may need more time than that. *Use a timer/stopwatch.* Trust me, it is really difficult to accurately asses the time you've spent polishing without it.

I doubt you will need Swirl and the orange pad for most of your paint surface. However, you may find a spot or two where you will need this more aggressive combination so you'll be glad to have the orange pad. Again, work the area for several minutes. Sometimes you have to repeat the process a few times to get perfect clarity.

As for using Amigo with the orange pad- technically you can pair Amigo with any of the pads for different situations/results. In most cases though, I don't recommend Amigo and the orange pad on MINI paint (unless you have more experience using the polisher, pads and Prima products). You can pair Amigo with the black pad but I would pair it with the white pad. You will get more out of the product with the white pad without having to worry about being too aggressive.

You can use the same pad for different products as long as the pad has been thoroughly washed and dried before switching. Some people prefer to have designated pads for specific products. We interchange pads all the time without any problems. Just wash and rinse them well. (note that Prima abrasives, like Swirl, are water based and therefore wash out very easily; some abrasives from other brands do not wash out well)

In summary, I would recommend:

-Swirl with white pad and possibly the orange pad in some areas, working each section for at least several minutes to allow Swirl to work for you first with its larger abrasives and then as smaller and smaller abrasives as it breaks down.
-Amigo with white pad
-Epic with black pad


And ditto what the rest of the gang already said about other related issues!

Enjoy!

-Heather

 

i use the griot's random orbital and the 3" random orbital.
it's great stuff.

in fact, the recent body repair i did required some polishing to remove paint transfer from the other car... so used my 3" on the griot's orange pad, polish 1,2,3 and walla. looks very nice again.

 

Heather,

Thanks for everything, Nick was extremely nice and helpful and patient ! I can't wait to start polishing . You guys really deserve all the praise you get on these forums. Service is top notch !

Good call on the stopwatch, you are right, it is very difficult to judge really how long you're doing a pass without any reference.

And thanks for the clarification on the pads. I'll be extra careful


Awesome. This makes me feel more confident about my purchase. So by the way, which speed setting are you using for Swirl and Amigo ?

rgds

Christopher

 

i dont use Swirl (im on the griot's system, remember? so
Polish1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,~ 11555555009 )

and i only apply Amigo by hand using Griot's red pad which
is the soft pad.. if i was to use my
RO for Amigo, i would use no more than speed3. go slow
not much pressure, use soft pad (red for Griot's).

 

Like has been noted elsewhere on this forum, I tend to move slow, and that includes RO speeds. 2.5-3.5 for most applications. Amigo is in the 2.5-3 range, Swirl/Cut maybe a bit faster. For applying Epic with a PC 2, just move faster.

Mark

 

lotsie- sounds good. i tend to use speed 5 for polishing but then again my polishes are pretty mild and pads are pretty soft (griot's orange pad) so i press down with some amount of force with pad spinning many be
2sec or 2.5sec per rotation.

 

Thanks guys !

Ok, now all that remains is that USPS does its job and delivers the package before the Golden Week commences !! Otherwise I'm screwed and will have to wait at least a month

 

Here's something that is counter intuitive: When using a diminishing abrasive, like Swirl the slower the PC speed the more polishing can occur. Why? Friction is what breaks-down the abrasives.
So not only can you vary the pad for aggressiveness of Swirl, but also the speed of you PC. The options are almost endless.

 

how can that be? if im using 2 and med foam pad there's really
no force (friction) i can put on the panel and can take forever.

not that im saying the pad needs make a visual full rotation to
polish, but it works much faster at higher speeds and more pressure
for more friction and fastAr diminishing abrasive actioning processsioning.

basically im a busy and lazy guy at the same time so efficiency is what im
after.

 

I try to keep the pad spinning, rather than bogging it down with pressure to just vibrating. This comes from decades of sanding wood, where you will tend to "swirl" the wood if you apply to much pressure. This applies to both vibrating and RO sanders.

Mark

 

Good question kenchan... you and MiniMaybee are both right. The difference lies in the extremes.

First, by slowing down the polisher a bit you are slowing down the rate at which the abrasives break down, thereby maintaining a larger abrasive particle for a longer period of time. This allows the larger particles to do their thing of abrading slightly more aggressively than their smaller "selves."

Likewise, by speeding up the polisher a bit you are increasing the rate at which the abrasives break down, thereby getting the abrasive particles to become finer more quickly. This allows the finer particles to do their thing of abrading slighty less aggressively than their smaller "selves."

The whole concept of diminishing abrasives when applied to an average and constant speed is that you initially have the power of larger particles to really work the paint to remove imperfections and then you finish it out (read: smooth it out) with the broken-down, smaller, diminished particles. (this is why you need to be sure to work a confined section for a long enough period of time... to allow this process to complete)


HOWEVER, yes, kenchan, there is a point at which the concept has limits.
If you slow the polisher down to almost nothing then the abrasives simply are not going to 1) diminish properly, if at all, or 2) have enough force and movement to abrade the paint very well, if at all. And then likewise, if you speed the polisher to its max in an effort to quickly create fine abrasive particles then you will do so too much and the fine particles will likely be too fine to do much of anything. There are other effects of going too slowly or too fast as well, but those are the main effects.


An excellent point with an excellent followup question, IMO.

-Heather

 

Just wanted to give an update, the package from DP arrived on Monday evening at the local post office, quite fast !
Everything was packed meticulously, very impressive service.
I'm off tomorrow night for my boss' country house, weather forecast on Sunday seems to be overcast which would make a great day for polishing and cleaning the cars in general. Looking forward to doing this

Thanks all for your feedback/advices which are very much appreciated

 

no way...

 

hey kurisu, are you guys going to wear those yellow anti-contamination/anti-gaijin get out of our country suits that those narita officials are wearing while you are detailing?

that's wat it looks like. 'you are all contaminated.'

'but we are not.'

'you are all viruses.'
'but we are not.'


'you are all gaijin.'
'but we are not.'

btw, gaijin means gozilla in japanese.

 

Being a gaijin myself (i.e. read "I am Gozilla") I make it clear to those same officials that I am here to take over the country by force and by the influenza flavour of the day all by myself each time I come back from business trip.

so to answer your question : hell yeah!

 

so kurisu- any picts of your work at your boss's garage? or is that all classified information?