Hello Everyone:

I am new to modifying suspensions and I need help. I will only be using my car for daily driving. No track use. I am wondering if a rear sway bar is necessary when using adjustable front camber plates. I have a 04 R53 and from the research that I have done the rear cannot be adjusted for camber. At my last alignment about a month ago my readings were left rear -1.4 and right rear -1.3.

My strut towers were slighly mushroomed which lead to a reading of left front -.70 and right front of -.80. Because of the mushrooing I wanted to go with the Helix adjustable to give me -1.7 camber on the front wheels.

My goal is to have a car with neutral handling. I do not drive aggressively. With these adjustments and new Koni FSDs is a 19 mm sway bar or a waste of money?

Thank you!

 

Necessary? No... Recommended? Yes...

A 19mm rear swaybar would be an excellent compliment to your plans for a more neutral setup... Recommended alignment would be -1.7 to -2.0 degrees of camber up front, whatever camber you have already in the rear is fine, zero toe in front and slight toe in for the rear. Should make for a spirited car in the twisties, for sure...

Swing by our website and check out our camber plates if you're looking for plates...

 

Are the adjustable camber plates good at keeping the alignment setting? e.g., if you set the camber to -2 in the weekend and back to 0 for the weekdays, will they stay accurate for long (say, one year)?

 

They will hold it indefinitely... However, you can't change camber without affecting toe on the MINI, so you can't really switch between camber settings without checking and adjusting toe (unlike the e36 M3, where you can kick the wheel in for track weekends and pull it out for daily driving)...

A set of toe plates is pretty cheap, though, if you don't mind getting your hands dirty then this is do-able. Just keep in mind that you'll have to check and adjust your toe each and every time you make a camber adjustment.

Most people set it and forget it - as long as you rotate your tires every 3-5K miles, they'll wear just fine.

 

Yes the plates will hold. The IE adjustables are the best value on the market IMHO. camber plates will also help reduce mushrooming. Many people run the IE fixed plate, fixed at -1.25, and find it great for street without undue wear on tires. This was posted before I saw the 2nd TSW post.

 

Thanks everyone for their replies.

To rephrase my orginal thread, will a rear sway bar make a significant difference when the front camber plates are dialed in? I seem to remember an old tread that stated that a rear sway bar was not really necessary with the camber plates.

BTW I am purchasing the camber plates for the additional mushroom protection as well as cutting down on the oversteer.

 

I think you mean understeer? Additional camber in the front will help reduce understeer and sharpen turn-in... It also helps lateral grip in corners.

Yes, you will gain additional benefits with a rear swaybar swap at the same time - you may not want to put it on the full stiff setting, but you would gain a major benefit...

 

Yup. I meant understeer.

 

Agreed. I have camber plates and a rear swaybar... I did the sway first, and it's an easy, inexpensive, very impactful mod. I added camber plates recently, and they further improved handling, albeit in different ways. I wouldn't entertain for a second the concept of NOT doing the swaybar, just because I have enough camber up front now... the swaybar still adds much to helping the car rotate effectively...

 

^ I agree with Blimey. I also did it in the same order as him.

The 19mm bar IMO is a very noticeable change, but its also very mild. There is nothing wild about it at all. I have camber up front and 19mm bar set full stiff all the time. I recently ran it on the track like this and found that I could definitely use/handle a larger rear bar. So yes, get both the bar and the camber plates.

 

MZero,
I see from your signature that you have a Front Sway Bar. What size is the front sway bar? That front sway bar will make a difference on what rear sway bar size makes sense. Thus it makes sense that you could use a bigger rear bar with the bigger front bar.

Minsane'
If planning to use the stock front bar with front camber plates, I would suggest not going much bigger than a 19mm bar.

I have a 2006 MCS GP with JCW springs/shocks. I currently have front camber plates (-1.8 camber) and the stock front and rear sway bars. This is a good setup for the street (I drive pretty aggressive and love canyons). I plan to eventually add a 19mm rear bar but I would think that you do not need to spend the money because you state you do not drive aggresive. However, adding the 19mm bar would provide a neutral handling car.

 

I think "FSB" in MZero's sig means "Front Strut Bar"

 

Thanks everyone for their suggestions. I will definately be going with the camber plates and 19mm bar set at full stiff.

 

Yep, m7 doesn't sell a front sway bar that I know of...FSB in my sig refers to their front strut bar which I got for the anti-mushrooming properties.

Minsane, a 19mm bar will be great...I'm sure you will love it. I'm happy I started with it, its a good stepping stone with learning to drive the Mini.

quikmini - I think the 19mm bar is a great option for most, but I came to the Mini from an S2000...a MUCH more sideways car. In comparison the Mini BARELY rotates...the 19mm bar helped considerably and pushed it much closer to neutral. However at times on the track I found that I could use even more, and being slightly sideways at 90-100 mph in the Mini was VERY controlable and a slight counter-steer would bring it right back in. Being that EASY to control...I feel I can go bigger. Probably a little more work at the absolute limit, but a little more rotation, and little more point and shoot.

Also, I don't plan to sell the 19mm right away just in case whatever I bump up to 22 or 25.4 hollow is a little too much, I can swap back down (as I do like the setup currently).

 

+1 - the amount of bar you need is directly related to:
a) you personal rotation tolerance and
b) your cornering speed...

Somebody here said a while back... if you car doesn't understeer, that means you're not cornering fast enough.

 

Thanks for the clarification on the Front Strut Bar. That makes sense.

I agree that the 19mm bar might be on the low side but I think that the 22 solid or 25.5 hollow bars are on the high side. I had 25.5 hollow with camber plates on my previous Mini and I thought it was too much oversteer on softest setting. However, the 25.5 hollow was great without camber plates. Maybe a 20mm bar would be about right with camber plates.

 

This is one of the reasons the IE 22mm hollow is a great deal. Give about the same stiffness as a 19mm solid without the weight and the IE bar is the most adjustable on the market. This gives you a wider range of adjustment from less then stock to OMG stiff.

 

I find the 22mm bar on full stiff allows for easy rotation on command. But my rear alignment settings are such that it actually counters this oversteer. So it is very controllable, no matter how sideways I get.

 

fwiw, I have found that there is NOTHING negative on the street with a -1.8 camber in the frt. My tires are working twice as well and wearing as well or better since the camber improvements. I modded in the following order:
1 lighter wheels/tires - improved every aspect of performance including ride.
2 19mm (alta) rr anti-sway (on "stiffest" setting) -- reduced understeer considerably, but was not gone even in hard "street" twisties
3 Koni FSDs -- improved ride AND handling.
4 adj. camber plates (-1.8) and adj. lower rr control arms (-.8) -- eliminated understeer in all street driving most spirited I can do without getting into lots of trouble. the car is flat cornering, inspires confidence and is just a blast to drive (for me)

 

minsane
If you are going to use your car as explained I would highly suggest using the fixed I.E. camber plates. They add -1.25 to whatever you have now. The reason I suggest these is the bearing is mounted in rubber. Ireland uses a bearing plate that comes from BMW ( for the "Z" series I believe). This is actually a little better ride than the stock setup without any additional NVH. If you go with an adjustable camber plate they are metal to metal and can produce additional noise especially at slow speeds. Some people experiance a small difference in camber left to right with the fixed plates but if you only drive on the street you will never know. The fixed plates will also protect you from mushrooming. I suggest that you hammer out the mushrooming when you install the plates. The I.E. plates will also save you about $225.00.
Steve

 

Definitely recommended, I have the IE adj camber plates and the Alta 22mm rear sway bar on full stiff and I drive the car mostly on street too. With 19mm I don't think you're going to have any oversteer troubles

 

I am going with the Helix adjustable, because of the mushrooming. I believe that my mushrooming is slight being -.7 and -.8 camber on the front wheels. They say stock should be 0 camber. Even with hammering the towers I will not be able to achieve the 1.7 camber that I am looking for with the IE fixed plates.

You have to remember that with the IE fixed plates you are adding -1.25 to whatever is there. If I put in the IE with the -.8 that was on my left front wheel I would have a net of -2.05. From the research I have done that could lead to increased tire wear. I do not believe that hammering out the towers can be a precise procedure. I will inevitably have a variation. The adjustables will allow me to compensate for any variations in the camber of the suspension

I am going to have the mushrooming hammered out or maybe not worry about it. With what I am planning to do I believe that I will be safe from any further mushrooming with the m7 plates, helix camber plates and Koni FSDs.

 

Why not the IE Adjustable plates?

 

I did not go with the IE adjustable camber plates due to the fact of the manufacturer telling me that they only last for about 20K miles. He mentioned something about the bearings going bad at about that time. He stated that the fixed are good for the life of the car. The gentleman knew what he was talking about and was very helpful. He took the time to expalin to me the difference between the two products and showed me the additional camber that I would be adding to my wheels with the fixed plates. My hats off to IE for being honest about their products . They were very helpful in teaching me about my suspension.

From what I've read here on the forum, the helix are beefier and do not use the same type of bearings. They do add a little more height, but that is OK with me.

That is why I went with Helix. Only time will tell how long the Helix will last.

 

If you want beefy, TSW have the strongest bearings out there...and they don't raise the car.