Just spotted this on another site and thought I would share.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index...ut_drivew.html

 

Leave it to my state to ruin everybody's good time.

First we ban automatic dishwashing soap that has phosphates in it, which means that you can't get cream cheese or spots off of your dishes now unless you scrub them by hand...

... now we're going to ban people from washing their cars in their drive way, and I promise you, there will be legislation on this before the state congress by the end of next year. But the funny part is, they won't pass the legislation statewide. They won't want to trouble the residents of Seattle or Tacoma right away... no, no instead... they'll enforce it in MY county first.

 

I feel for you. It is a good thing that it never rains there causing some of the same effects on a much larger scale, IE everywhere versus only those who actually hand wash their cars. Is road salt used in the winters like it is used here in Chicago? I am amazed that lake Michigan is not a salt water lake by now.

 

isn't this supposed to be a free country? there probably isn't a stupid law like that even in north korea! my bet this that someone in the government has ties to someone in the car wash business (like a brother in law). and now rolls in the $$$ for them (if you cant wash your own car then the car wash is where you HAVE to go), all masked behind "this is good for the environment" so nobody dares to challenge them in the public arena for fear of being anti environment. its actually quite the perfect little plan.

 

Ugh. That's the thing I hate - the people in our government often have their own agendas. Somehow it wouldn't surprise me if it was *really* something like flav mentioned - a gov't official having a friend in the car wash industry, doing "favors" for this friend.

The problem is that many of us just see it from the surface, "its good for the environment". Those of us who see right through these evil little schemes will be branded as communists, anti-environment, republicans , etc. Nobody wants to be labeled something they aren't, so nobody will really fight it. In the end the law will remain in effect, and we'll all have dirty cars with really crappy paint finishes.

 

i thought Griot'sGarage was located in Washington? hummmm....

Griot's Garage, Inc.
3500-A 20th Street E.
Tacoma, WA 98424

 

No. Road salt was banned here years ago, instead we use a de-icing chemical that claims it does not cause cars to rust, while in actuality does nothing to the road conditions except turn them in a sheet of glass.

In my experience, the stuff is more dangerous because it sticks to metal and glass like no one's business and cannot be removed without soap. So if the stuff gets on your windshield, you can't see and there is no amount of bug juice that will help you. You have to take hot water and dawn to it to get it off.

 

There's a rule or ordinance either in our town or in our HOA that bans us from washing our cars in our driveways. People still do it anyway.

 

It makes sense to me, mainly because so many people harm the environment. Just on this issue alone I wonder how many people wash harsh chemicals [aka car wash soaps and cleaners] down the drain. While individuals don't think it's that big a deal because how bad can it be, but collectively I suspect it's a lot.

Here in San Francisco people throw all kinds of crud into the storm drains.

Didn't these same people make a big deal of communities banning wood burning in fireplaces because of the polluting nature of the smoke?

And let's not forget all the smokers who think they have a constitutional right to smoke [and cause me to suffer from second hand smoke.]

Govt. has to do something because people sure won't on their own. I'd be curious to see how massive the problem is compared to individuals protesting their right to wash a car.

But rather than saying no washing, the better route would be to ban any car wash detergents that are not green and safe for the environment. That would be far easier to enforce over neighbors calling the cops when they see you washing your car.

 

Since political discussions are banned here I shan't comment. But puhleeeeze....It just gets stupider and stupider every day.

 

And they recently introduced their waterless car wash system:

http://www.griotsgarage.com/product/11347.do

 

no way!!!

it's already in my arsenal.

 

exactly. before they ban car washing, they should make all
retailers take back all the nicd/nimh batteries they sell, old computers,
used coolant, used oils, etc. etc. etc.

i can almost guarantee you that people throwout coolant down the
drain because most stores will not take the old coolant back.
it is very challenged.

 

I have an unusual driveway that is away from neighbors prying eyes if in fact this stupid law comes to pass, however - I'm curious, how do you like the spray-on car wash?

 

Yes, but I imagine that your storm drain water is not already treated and filtered like ours is here. Washington has been big on protecting its water sources for the last forty years. Storm drain water does not just get left to drain into local water ways here. It is treated first... and yet somehow, it is contributing to phosphates in our local water supplies?

Bull.

I don't know about elsewhere, but here in Washington, we live downstream from one of the largest phosphorus mines in the world. Let me say that again for the cheap seats... the largest phosphorus mines.. in the world.

I would think that would have a much greater impact on our local water supplies than what dish soap I use, or how often I wash my car in my driveway... just a thought.

 

it works pretty well for wat it is. it will never beat a real wash, but
for a car like mine that rarely gets washed anyway (i dont drive on wet days)
it does the job.

 

Well, like I said, I suspect that many people don't think that their individual car washing can possibly have an impact on or contribution to pollution. But there are studies about this "individual thought process" or what I would call the "who me?" phenomena.

See pages on car washing:

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/wq/st...ewafinalfs.pdf

Also see this [duly note that many will conclude, as you say, that the below is "bull."]:

The biggest limitation to implementing residential car wash best management practices may be the lack of knowledge regarding the impacts of polluted runoff. Many people do not associate the effects of their vehicle washing activities with local water quality, and may be unaware that the discharges that enter storm drains are not treated at plants before being discharged into local waters.

Surveys indicate that the average citizen does not fully understand the hydrologic connection between their yard, the street, the storm sewer and the streams. For example, a recent Roper survey found that just 22% of Americans know that stormwater runoff is the most common source of pollution of streams, rivers, and oceans (NEETF, 1999).


Residents are typically not aware of the water quality consequences of car washing, and do not understand the chemical content of the soaps and detergents they use. Car washing is a very difficult watershed behavior to change since it is often hard to define a better alternative. However, as with all pollution prevention measures, the reduction of pollutant loads from outdoor car washing activities have a positive effect on stormwater quality.

Most car washing best management practices are inexpensive, and rely more on good housekeeping practices (where vehicles are washed, planning for the collection of wash water) than on expensive technology.

Management measure involves educating the general public on the water quality impacts of the outdoor washing of automobiles and how to avoid allowing polluted runoff to enter the storm drain system. Outdoor car washing has the potential to result in high loads of nutrients, metals and hydrocarbons during dry weather conditions in many watersheds, as the detergent-rich water used to wash the grime off our cars flows down the street and into the storm drain.

Commercial car wash facilities often recycle their water or are required to treat their wash water discharge prior to release to the sanitary sewer system, so most stormwater impacts from car washing are from residents, businesses and charity car wash fundraisers that discharge polluted wash water to the storm drain system.

Two surveys of households who wash their own cars in Washington state found 60% of residents could be classified as "chronic car-washers," i.e., they washed their car at least once a month (Smith, 1996 and Hardwick, 1997).

Between 70 and 90% of residents reported that their car wash water drained directly to the street, and presumably, to the nearest stream. It has been estimated that 25% of the population of the United States may be classified as chronic car washers, which translates into about 27 million potential residential car wash polluters (CWP, 1999).

Car washing is a common routine for residents and a popular way for organizations such as scout troops, schools, and sports teams to raise funds. This activity is not limited by geographic region, but its impact on water quality will be greatest in more urban areas with higher concentrations of automobiles.

Currently, only a few pollution prevention programs incorporate proper car washing practices as part of an overall message to residents on ways to reduce nonpoint source pollution. Other programs have extended this message to include charity car washes and provide these charity groups with equipment and training to alleviate the problems associated with polluted wash water entering the storm drain system.

 

My intention is really not to get involved in politics here, but to inform those who do not live in my state of some simple realities where I live.

Your survey is incorrect. Not ALL water from storm drains (the drains in the streets) in Washington drains directly to the streams. In my county, it goes through a treatment facility first before being allowed back into the rivers. Water in King County does run back into the streams without being treated first, which IMO is stupid considering the other problems that lead to us having high phosphorus content in our tap water.

Locally speaking, our major water supply is an aquifer that is contained by rock that is loaded with phosphorus. After our tap water is treated at the treatment facility here and then run to our faucets, it is still loaded with phosphates. I know this, because I keep three reef aquariums and a freshwater aquarium and I have to run aggressive phosphate removal in all the tanks to keep pest algae blooms at bay. This is after the water gets treated at the plant AND run through a five stage RO/DI unit at my house. The readings on my tds meter are a joke and I am not alone. The whole of aquarium hobbyists where I live suffer from this same problem. When we asked our local water district why there were so many phosphates, we were told that we had a combination of factors causing the problem that were primarily natural in origin due to the rock in which the our aquifer is located. The secondary effect is that at a higher elevation from where I live, in Idaho, there are several massive phosphorus mines that are near where the spring run off comes into the area out of the Rocky mountains.

This causes ridiculous levels of phosphates in our local tap water. Consumer use is inconsequential when stacked against the phosphorus loaded rock that contains our aquifer and the phosphorus mines just up the road.

Yes, people should be mindful of what they do. However, washing your car in your driveway does NOT contaminate tapwater to a level this extreme there are other factors at work here.

 

Random... good post. I think it is good to stimulate the discussion and for anyone, regardless of where they live, to consider the science behind any new rule or regulation.

In San Francisco they have graphics on the drains throughout the City. Can't recall them all, but there is a crab, a fish and some other pics. They tell people not to drain pollutants into the drains because such will harm the environment and marine life.

Don't know how much of that is accurate, but at least here they don't want people polluting via the storm drains.

But like I said, in this town people don't care. They litter, pollute and cause damage to levels I would prefer not to know.

 

I was looking at this in the last Griot's catalog, but I'm still skeptical. It basically looks like QD on steroids, right? Does the great Ken think this would be a good product for a winter 'washing' type application?

 

If the problem is with the soap used to wash cars should they not change that rather than a simple ban. My concern is more that legislative bodies will ban activities rather than solve the real problem.
Just require that the car was soap is safe for the water supply.

 

They did that to our laundry soap and our dishwashing detergent already... and now we have dingy whites and cream cheese stuck to our knives...

I wonder how well phosphate free cleaners would remove brake dust from wheels? If the cleaners I currently have to use are any indication... probably not at all.

 

I find it funny that the study mentioned above identified 'chronic car washers' as those who wash thei autos about once a month. They obviously have not spent any time around NAM, where once a month will get you labeled as a 'chronic car neglecter' by some people here.

For the record, my cars are lucky to be washed once a season.

 

dont worry. the japanese will eat all marine life before pollution becomes
more of a problem.

 

MichaelSF, almost all of my mother's side of the family live in San Fran so I've been there quite a bit. Heck, I JUST got back from a 2-week vacation there. There are cute little metal plates on sidewalks and streets saying not to dump anything deadly because of the wildlife. Is that rule enforced in any way?