I have done the lug bolt to lug stud conversion and they keep backing out. I've used blue loctite, I've used red loctite, I try to let the wheels cool before I loosen the nuts - I autocross the car - all to no avail. The rears do not present a problem, it's the fronts that keep backing out. They will fail 1 or 2 at a time - the entire stud, with the nut still attached, comes out when changing wheels. I'll get between 4-6 events before they fail, so it's not like it happens every time I change wheels - but it's a pain! I'm only torquing the wheel to 70 lbs, I put them on by hand (to avoid cross threading), I'm as gentle as a kitten with them, except when I'm thrashing the car around an autocross course!

So, with all of that said - has anyone investigated installing "real" lug studs in a Mini hub? I'm talking the type with the knurled end that gets installed from the back of the hub? Can it be done?

I'm counting on you NAM!

 

What torque are using to set them?

 

I am using Turner studs--red loctite at 90ftlbs. They will never come loose. I then torque my open tuner lugs to 89ftlbs and recheck occasionally, no worries. 70 seems way too low for anything wheel related.

 

I am torquing the studs to 100 lbs at installation using the "2 nut" method.

I agree that torquing the wheels to 70 lbs is too low, but it's only for an autocross run and I re-torque between runs - and they're never loose. I used to torque to 80 lbs, but dropped to 70 to prevent/reduce backing-out of the studs.

I was using the set from Pilo, so maybe the grade of steel was not as high, resulting in undue expansion with heat, locking them onto the nut? I'm considering the Turner studs as they seem to be of a higher grade - they are certainly more expensive.

However, I'd still like to know if it is possible to install "real" lug studs on a Mini hub - I have an inquiring mind.

 

Are you talking about the splined ones that press in from the back? You're going to have some machining to do in order for that to work well. Can it be done? Why not... anything's possible.

We specify the torque for our studs at 18 ft/lbs and red Loctite. The torque spec for our spline drive nuts is 86 ft/lbs.

IF you change the wheels a lot, you need to check the studs (any manufacturer) each time you change your wheels. They ALL loosen up over time, especially if you run the nuts on and off a lot. Having the nut thred the stud out means it's likely securing itself to the stud - have you tried a very thin coat of anti-seize on the stud before thread the nut on? Just make sure you don't get any on the hub flange or wheel hub...

JMHO, but checking the torque on the studs each time you swap wheels = better safe than sorry. Having a wheel come off at the track/AX is not fun...

 

Can't help you on your quest. I've been told to use blue loctite with l8psi and 86 lbs on the nuts of the tuner lugs. Changed the wheels three times and no problems yet. However I did check the lugs each time just to make sure nothing was backing out. I've heard using red loctite could cause problems getting the tuner lugs out if you so dersire at a later date. By the way, anti seize is a good idea if used correctly.

 

Actually, 70 is quite enough. I forget where I heard it but they found that even 70 ft lb can cause cause some deflection and bending of brake rotors. The only reason manufactures spec higher is to prevent them from eventually backing out when they are driven for 20k miles without checking. For an auto-x event, it should be fine.

The most likely reason for them backing out is due to the heat from braking getting to the loctite. Loctite doesn't like high temps. Not sure what the remedy should be. I'm intrigued why you torque the studs down so much. Most things I've read about studs agrees with what txwerks stated.

 

I've never had any sort of issues with my studs so far, using red loctite. When I installed them, I made sure the threads were 100% clean on both the hubs and studs. Once the studs were tightened into the hubs, I let everything set up for 24 hours before I installed the wheels. This has worked great for me for me.


Jason

 

I'm using Pilo's 'race studs' with blue Loctite and McGard SplineDrive lugnuts. I change wheels weekly. Not a single issue in two years. I'd venture a guess you're issue is your studs (maybe try some diff ones).

I'm actually putting my car back to stock and my conversion is for sale (if you wanted to try something cheaper than buying all new).

 

well, it's possible that I have no idea what torque I applied to the studs when I installed them, but I am pretty confident that once installed with red loctite, they have never come loose while applying 89ftlbs of torque to both BBS lugnuts on my Koseis and tuner lug nuts on my Konigs.
The Turner Motor Sports studs are expensive but they sure work. It's very possible that other studs also work just as well. Just sharing my experience.
I also check the studs and nuts weekly. But I'm obsessive compulsive by nature...

 

I've done it all by the book, or so I thought. Used brake cleaner on the hub holes and the studs, allowed to air dry. Used red loctite, allowed to set for 24 hours before moving the car - they still back out. I mean, it is hot here in Florida and I am heating up the rotors pretty good, but it's only an autocross course, with 45-60 second runs (depending on the course). It's not like I'm tracking the car. I keep hearing of all of these other people having no problems. Is my car trying to tell me something?

As for using anti-seize on lug nuts - that is a hard concept to wrap my mind around, but at this point I'll try anything. It's bad enough having to change wheels in 95 degree heat, but having to deal with backed-out studs too - not fun!

What are these German engineers thinking with these lug bolts anyway?

By the way - Pilo is no longer in business.

 

really? wow....didn't know. they sourced them from someone else of course...it wasn't a brand I'd heard of unlike the cheap ones they sold that were Gorilla brand (and the threads would tweak after a single use).

 

If I understand the problem, this is how I would restate it to make it clear what is happening to "Hammer".

The studs and nuts are Gorilla from Piloracing.com which are the standard Gorilla studs and nuts that you can buy from multiple sources.

The studs are installed in the MINI hub using red loctite and wheels are used for autocrossing along with open or closed nuts.

Installing the wheels and locking the nuts down goes as planned, 70 ft-lbs are used but could be as high as the standard 88 ft lbs and be fine.

When removing the nuts the NUT BINDS or LOCKS to the stud causing BOTH to come out of the hub even though it was secure with the locktite. This can happen after a few months or a few years of use and 1 to 2 studs out of four could come out at one time.

Nuts and studs are checked for any problems or damage at the time the wheels are installed.

I would guess that this could happen at the event or more likely when you take off the street wheels to put on the race wheels either at home or at the event.

Am I right?

How do I know?

Because I have Piloracing studs and nuts for the last 4 years which I use all the time for street, track and autocross and this has happened to me countless times.

My assessment-
The stud thread is prone to damage or corrosion over time. Maybe if the wheel hits the treads during mounting small damage to the treads starts the corrosion to form. I used to think that open nuts made this worse but I have lost nuts stuck on studs with both closed and open nuts.

So check for damage and corrosion on the studs and nuts. Hand fit both at the time you install the wheels before you tighten them up. If you feel some binding then pull the bad stud and replace them. The reason I like the Gorilla stud is that I use an allen key to tighten and remove the stud. But if you use two nuts to tighten then you can use any stud.

Gorilla studs are warrantied for 90 days and will usually last that long. The grade of materials is not very good depending on your weather and how often you change your wheels. Harder metals would work better and racing studs that are pressed on are an option but more expensive.

Gorilla says-
These Gorilla wheel studs are manufactured from cold-forged steel and are zinc plated for maximum protection.

Despite this I still have them and recently made an order to get another 16 studs and 16 nuts. My latest plan is to monitor for any binding and replace the stud as soon as it gets into trouble. I have the tools and red loctite to make the change when needed but usually like to let it sit for 2 or more hours before I tighten down the nuts. I get to events 3 hours or more before I drive so it's not too bad. I change wheels the day before the event and often catch the problem then and do the stud replacement.

I hope this helps.

 

DING! We have a winner!

I, too, learned to carry extra studs and red loctite with me to events. I actually used up my last 4 spares this past weekend - 2 on the left front, 2 on the right front. And I have not been as careful as I should be in not letting the lug opening of the wheel hit the lug stud when changing wheels - especially at the end of the day when I am hot and tired. I put the nuts on by hand and every once in a while it takes a little more to turn it, but it still goes on - even though in the back of my mind I'm thinking "uh oh, that could be a problem next time".

So, I guess I'll go with higher quality studs, be extra careful not to damage the threads when changing from street wheels to race wheels and back, use anti-seize on the studs and pray like hell.

 

I replace my lug nuts each year - they get pretty beat up with constant changing. I like to use 17mm nuts, which are kinda hard to find locally, because my street wheels - Konig Heliums - have narrow clearance for the lug wrench. Does anyone know if any of the chain stores - Pep Boys, AutoZone, etc carry a large selection of lug nuts? When ordering them on line the shipping charges are sometimes as much as the nuts! That's nuts!

 

I use McGard SplineDrives which eliminates any clearance issues. Beware the off brand spline drives....not anywhere close to the same quality.

 

My TSW Studs has been problem less for the past 3month and 9 track days. Get yourself a new set from TSW and forget about it.

 

Yea, I also have the TSW set...not a single problem here. Although Mini Corsa used an impact wrench on them! Oh well, I forgot to tell Danny and guess I shouldn't have assumed he knew...luckily they are all still ok.

 

We stand behind our studs and nuts, regardless of how people abuse them... And, people do abuse them. Any issues we have seen have all been directly due to improper treatment (e.g. torquing the stud into the hub using an impact wrench, ramming a nut on with a high-grade Ingersoll-Rand impact wrench set on 11 (= what, like 600 ft/lbs?), etc.).

And, they're made in the USA (Ohio, actually).

IMHO, there's no reason to install nuts with an impact wrench (being lazy isn't an excuse), unless you're pulling into the pits and your crew is changing tires for you...

 

+1 on that. I use an impact to remove, but to reinstall only hand thread them, then tighten to the lowest setting on like 1/4 trigger (so the wheel is snugged to the hub face), then do the final tighten with a torque wrench.

 

Another plus, TSW kit comes with the slim profile spline nuts, it will fit any wheel you might have.

 

I just got my TSW tuner lugnuts and they are very nice indeed! Actually, everything I have got from TSW falls into that category...could be a pattern here maybe?

 

OK - just got my TSW stud and nut kit today. Probably won't get a chance to install them until tomorrow or Wednesday. Am I reading this right, torque the studs to a paltry 18 lbs?

 

That is correct 18lb for the stud is all you need. The bigger thread of the stud to hub portion will always receive the torque from the finer thread of the stud to wheel nut portion. If you do 18lb for stud to hub then torque wheel nut properly to 81lb per Bentley spec, you will never have a problem.

 

The thread pitch on both ends of the stud - the part that mounts to the hub and the part that receives the wheel & lug nut - is the same.