Drivetrain Cam or Tune...or something else?
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6th Gear
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From: Outside of Phila, PA
Cam or Tune...or something else?
I currently have intake/exhaust and I just bought the ALTA 15% and colder plugs. To put it simply I am dying for more power- the intake/exhaust is not cutting it, and I've waited out the warranty. The next logical step is either...
1. RMW/LDG tune
2. RMW Cam
3. Or something else that I haven't thought of.
Here's the issue, as usual- money, and to some degree, safety. I can afford the RMW cam (~$700 after install). I will be getting the pulley and possibly the cam installed all at once by Helix, if possible.
Can I run intake/exhaust/pulley/cam on 340's for about a year, safely? I won't be able to afford to get it tuned if I do the cam. I don't track the car, as it is a DD with spirited driving. I do not want to get 380's unless the car is being tuned.
Or should I just do the pulley/plugs and get the car tuned and spend the other $200 on something else, like an IC diverter or swaybar or something like that? I know that only I can really decide what my goals for modding are, but I would like some advice as to what I should ultimately do. I know that I am not going to get a head, either. I don't neeed a car with that much power and I don't want to spend that much money.
Pulley+cam and no tune, or pulley+tune? What's your .02?
(Yes I did use the search function!) It was painful to have to start another one of these 'which one should i do' threads. Thanks in advance for any advice!
1. RMW/LDG tune
2. RMW Cam
3. Or something else that I haven't thought of.
Here's the issue, as usual- money, and to some degree, safety. I can afford the RMW cam (~$700 after install). I will be getting the pulley and possibly the cam installed all at once by Helix, if possible.
Can I run intake/exhaust/pulley/cam on 340's for about a year, safely? I won't be able to afford to get it tuned if I do the cam. I don't track the car, as it is a DD with spirited driving. I do not want to get 380's unless the car is being tuned.
Or should I just do the pulley/plugs and get the car tuned and spend the other $200 on something else, like an IC diverter or swaybar or something like that? I know that only I can really decide what my goals for modding are, but I would like some advice as to what I should ultimately do. I know that I am not going to get a head, either. I don't neeed a car with that much power and I don't want to spend that much money.
Pulley+cam and no tune, or pulley+tune? What's your .02?
(Yes I did use the search function!) It was painful to have to start another one of these 'which one should i do' threads. Thanks in advance for any advice!
Last edited by MINIFVR; Jul 9, 2008 at 06:12 AM. Reason: more info
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you'll probably see better numbers right now if you get the tune however, i'd say get the cam and any other mods you plan to do before you get the tune. that way when you get the tune you'll get the most out of all the different parts working together and utimately will yield more power than getting the tune and then modifying and changing things afterwards. i think you'll get the most power for your money this way
My suggestion is to get the pulley, JCW (or ?) 380cc injectors, and get Jan to tune your car. I have this setup (+ header) on my 05 and was able to get 206whp out of it. More than the power, I am amazed at how much more driveable and fun the car is post tune.
On the other hand, a cam is costly and won't do a lot of good until until you open up the exhaust path a bit with a header and/or valves, i.e. expensive head work.
The pulley and a canned tune will make a very nice next-level 20HP+ upgrade.
If you get a canned tune from a good tuner, they will generally upgrade the tune at little or no charge, as you add goodies. I upgraded my MTH tune three times due to new hardware, during their one-year window - part of the cost of the package.
Personally I'd rather have a less-than-perfect tune that is easily uprated as I go along, rather than waiting with a mistuned engine for a one-shot perfect job. Also, once you get the pulley (don't forget the plugs), you really should have a tune to keep the engine operating well.
You won't need injectors for a while yet, so that's certainly a deferrable expense.
Have a look at the stages offered by Mini-Madness, for example:
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...S&Category=211
If you look at the details of their upgrade levels, you are basically looking at a well-balanced upgrade program, where all the parts are appropriate for that level, and nothing unnecessary is added for each level of reliable output. If you were to proceed thru their levels as a guide to your upgrade program, you wouldn't be spending unneeded money for bling-word stuff, and you wouldn't be tossing out anything along the way.
My car is basically at their Stage 2, with a couple of different choices, and now I only occasionally hunger for more torque, but that next jump after Stage 2 gets pricey.
The pulley and a canned tune will make a very nice next-level 20HP+ upgrade.
If you get a canned tune from a good tuner, they will generally upgrade the tune at little or no charge, as you add goodies. I upgraded my MTH tune three times due to new hardware, during their one-year window - part of the cost of the package.
Personally I'd rather have a less-than-perfect tune that is easily uprated as I go along, rather than waiting with a mistuned engine for a one-shot perfect job. Also, once you get the pulley (don't forget the plugs), you really should have a tune to keep the engine operating well.
You won't need injectors for a while yet, so that's certainly a deferrable expense.
Have a look at the stages offered by Mini-Madness, for example:
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...S&Category=211
If you look at the details of their upgrade levels, you are basically looking at a well-balanced upgrade program, where all the parts are appropriate for that level, and nothing unnecessary is added for each level of reliable output. If you were to proceed thru their levels as a guide to your upgrade program, you wouldn't be spending unneeded money for bling-word stuff, and you wouldn't be tossing out anything along the way.
My car is basically at their Stage 2, with a couple of different choices, and now I only occasionally hunger for more torque, but that next jump after Stage 2 gets pricey.
Last edited by OldRick; Jul 9, 2008 at 01:57 PM.
As was already noted, you'll probably see more improvement from a RMW tune vs a RMW cam w/o a tune. On my '05 with JCW intake, 380cc injectors, Milltek exhaust, 16% pulley an RWM tune I have plenty of power for daily driving. In fact, I rarely find an opportunity to really open it up, so I'm not getting much benefit from the 380's. I probably won't do anything else until I can afford and justify more power.
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6th Gear
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From: Outside of Phila, PA
Thanks everyone.
I talked to Ralph at Helix and he basically said what british RACING green had to say, which makes sense- get a custom tune after you finish modding. He said that if I get the cam I should get it tuned- bottom line. This makes sense but is the least practical in terms of performance until you actually get the car tuned, i.e. running pulley/cam on stock injectors without a tune.
Old Rick- I have looked at the mini-madness ECU upgrades and I would be at a stage 2 if I were to purchase that. However, it is difficult to justify $700 for a canned tune if I only plan to get pulley or the cam, which would be the end of my mods. I would rather have it custom tuned so its relatively perfect and squeak a few more hp out of it. Yeah, the cam is very expensive, which sucks and that's why im hesitant to do it.
~200whp with just pulley/tune seems hard to pass up, but there's always that hankering for more power. But why are 380's needed with just pulley/tune as jaynicholson did? Is that crucial or gain you more hp? How much are custom tunes by jan/LDG?
I talked to Ralph at Helix and he basically said what british RACING green had to say, which makes sense- get a custom tune after you finish modding. He said that if I get the cam I should get it tuned- bottom line. This makes sense but is the least practical in terms of performance until you actually get the car tuned, i.e. running pulley/cam on stock injectors without a tune.
Old Rick- I have looked at the mini-madness ECU upgrades and I would be at a stage 2 if I were to purchase that. However, it is difficult to justify $700 for a canned tune if I only plan to get pulley or the cam, which would be the end of my mods. I would rather have it custom tuned so its relatively perfect and squeak a few more hp out of it. Yeah, the cam is very expensive, which sucks and that's why im hesitant to do it.
~200whp with just pulley/tune seems hard to pass up, but there's always that hankering for more power. But why are 380's needed with just pulley/tune as jaynicholson did? Is that crucial or gain you more hp? How much are custom tunes by jan/LDG?
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Just a warning advice on canned tune, it will not deliver the power as promised. Save your $ and get the RMW. I had one too before but there were few choices at that time. The RMW tune was like the 15%pulley..instant gratification.
On the street this isn't a big deal b/c you don't spend a lot of time north of 6500rpm. On the track, however, you run the gears out (eg. at the end of a straight) and run much higher rpms. Larger injectors allow you to safely raise the redline and extend the usable rpm range up to 7300. Jan described it best when he said injectors are "cheap insurance."
So with a pulley, intake & exhaust the need for injectors comes down to where/how you drive. Beyond those mods bigger injectors are essential.
On the other hand, a cam is costly and won't do a lot of good until until you open up the exhaust path a bit with a header and/or valves, i.e. expensive head work.
The pulley and a canned tune will make a very nice next-level 20HP+ upgrade.
If you get a canned tune from a good tuner, they will generally upgrade the tune at little or no charge, as you add goodies. I upgraded my MTH tune three times due to new hardware, during their one-year window - part of the cost of the package.
Personally I'd rather have a less-than-perfect tune that is easily uprated as I go along, rather than waiting with a mistuned engine for a one-shot perfect job. Also, once you get the pulley (don't forget the plugs), you really should have a tune to keep the engine operating well.
Have a look at the stages offered by Mini-Madness, for example:
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...S&Category=211
If you look at the details of their upgrade levels, you are basically looking at a well-balanced upgrade program, where all the parts are appropriate for that level, and nothing unnecessary is added for each level of reliable output. If you were to proceed thru their levels as a guide to your upgrade program, you wouldn't be spending unneeded money for bling-word stuff, and you wouldn't be tossing out anything along the way.
My car is basically at their Stage 2, with a couple of different choices, and now I only occasionally hunger for more torque, but that next jump after Stage 2 gets pricey.
The pulley and a canned tune will make a very nice next-level 20HP+ upgrade.
If you get a canned tune from a good tuner, they will generally upgrade the tune at little or no charge, as you add goodies. I upgraded my MTH tune three times due to new hardware, during their one-year window - part of the cost of the package.
Personally I'd rather have a less-than-perfect tune that is easily uprated as I go along, rather than waiting with a mistuned engine for a one-shot perfect job. Also, once you get the pulley (don't forget the plugs), you really should have a tune to keep the engine operating well.
Have a look at the stages offered by Mini-Madness, for example:
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...S&Category=211
If you look at the details of their upgrade levels, you are basically looking at a well-balanced upgrade program, where all the parts are appropriate for that level, and nothing unnecessary is added for each level of reliable output. If you were to proceed thru their levels as a guide to your upgrade program, you wouldn't be spending unneeded money for bling-word stuff, and you wouldn't be tossing out anything along the way.
My car is basically at their Stage 2, with a couple of different choices, and now I only occasionally hunger for more torque, but that next jump after Stage 2 gets pricey.
so you are willing to pay double for a tune that is "guess work" at best?
willing to have someone guess from the other side of the pond without ever seeing data from your car.....
amazing
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6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Outside of Phila, PA
That's what I'm saying. I just can't believe how much canned tunes are considering they are not nearly as precise at delivering power. I mean yeah you might be able to send out for $150 to get a software upgrade but still, its not the same. I was never considering a canned tune. It's either custom or bust for me. A tune is in the cards its just a matter of when.
If you can get 20HP from a custom tune, you can get 12 from a canned tune.
With the canned tune, you get upgrades as your tastes change, so if you do it more than once, the canned tune is a lot better buy.
The canned tune, just like the OEM fuel and timing maps, is more conservative, and is probably less likely to cause emission issues or pop an engine from one bad tank of gas some day down the road.
Are you willing to bet that the exact combination of mods you get first time out of the box is where your car will be a year from now? Or are you willing to wait until you get all of the right set of stuff installed, to get any of it working well?
Your decision.
I chose the "Level 2" equivalent, and it's plenty for street and very enthusiastic mountain road use. I blew off a Camaro at a light tonight - no idea what it had, but the guy was being very aggressive about it, and lost big-time to my "Level 2" kit.
With the canned tune, you get upgrades as your tastes change, so if you do it more than once, the canned tune is a lot better buy.
The canned tune, just like the OEM fuel and timing maps, is more conservative, and is probably less likely to cause emission issues or pop an engine from one bad tank of gas some day down the road.
Are you willing to bet that the exact combination of mods you get first time out of the box is where your car will be a year from now? Or are you willing to wait until you get all of the right set of stuff installed, to get any of it working well?
Your decision.
I chose the "Level 2" equivalent, and it's plenty for street and very enthusiastic mountain road use. I blew off a Camaro at a light tonight - no idea what it had, but the guy was being very aggressive about it, and lost big-time to my "Level 2" kit.
If you can get 20HP from a custom tune, you can get 12 from a canned tune.
With the canned tune, you get upgrades as your tastes change, so if you do it more than once, the canned tune is a lot better buy.
The canned tune, just like the OEM fuel and timing maps, is more conservative, and is probably less likely to cause emission issues or pop an engine from one bad tank of gas some day down the road.
Are you willing to bet that the exact combination of mods you get first time out of the box is where your car will be a year from now? Or are you willing to wait until you get all of the right set of stuff installed, to get any of it working well?
Your decision.
I chose the "Level 2" equivalent, and it's plenty for street and very enthusiastic mountain road use. I blew off a Camaro at a light tonight - no idea what it had, but the guy was being very aggressive about it, and lost big-time to my "Level 2" kit.
With the canned tune, you get upgrades as your tastes change, so if you do it more than once, the canned tune is a lot better buy.
The canned tune, just like the OEM fuel and timing maps, is more conservative, and is probably less likely to cause emission issues or pop an engine from one bad tank of gas some day down the road.
Are you willing to bet that the exact combination of mods you get first time out of the box is where your car will be a year from now? Or are you willing to wait until you get all of the right set of stuff installed, to get any of it working well?
Your decision.
I chose the "Level 2" equivalent, and it's plenty for street and very enthusiastic mountain road use. I blew off a Camaro at a light tonight - no idea what it had, but the guy was being very aggressive about it, and lost big-time to my "Level 2" kit.
you obviously have no idea how a custom tune works
we have had numerous dynos posted with your so called canned tunes and many of them made less than stock
keep on drinking the kool aid
How much power a car measures, with or without a tune, is highly variable, and that's the last I'm going to say on the topic, as I don't care for abuse.
Jan, thanks for your comments on my mis-information. Sorry, but I haven't joined the RMW cult.
Jan, thanks for your comments on my mis-information. Sorry, but I haven't joined the RMW cult.
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6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: Outside of Phila, PA
I don't think Jan or John would tune a car so that there would be a chance of 'popping and engine'. I'd rather have the car run right then rich or whatnot. I haven't read about anyone's custom tuned motor blowing up yet... maybe ive just missed it.
Ed..... your "cult" stickers went out awhile ago... must be the Canadian express mail delivery
Ed... we are feverishly working on those too
need to talk to you about the exhaust... I will be in Chicago this weekend
You can't get the grille badge. But he's got some damn nice side window stickers. But I like the dyno numbers better. 219 at the wheels and it wasn't from some damn canned tune.
careful... Rick wooped a Camaro at a stop light.... you could be next
I have to agree with the people saying canned tunes aren't a great idea.
In fact, I have a hard time believing that vendors send these things out to people....
#1- There is no way to tell what a canned tune is doing to your car unless you get it on a dyno and actually see what the A/F etc. are doing.
#2- The only proper way to tune a car is to dyno tune it.
Just plugging something into your ECU and basically crossing your fingers is craziness in my opinion.
Sorry, had to get that out
To give the OP some info on his question whether or not he will be ok running his mods without a tune.
The answer is yes! You will be fine, I drove my car for about 8 months with my mods before I had it tuned. The car ran fine, did it run to its full potential? ...no, but it ran just fine
Pully, larger injectors 380's and a Jan tune. My opinion
In fact, I have a hard time believing that vendors send these things out to people....
#1- There is no way to tell what a canned tune is doing to your car unless you get it on a dyno and actually see what the A/F etc. are doing.
#2- The only proper way to tune a car is to dyno tune it.
Just plugging something into your ECU and basically crossing your fingers is craziness in my opinion.
Sorry, had to get that out
To give the OP some info on his question whether or not he will be ok running his mods without a tune.
The answer is yes! You will be fine, I drove my car for about 8 months with my mods before I had it tuned. The car ran fine, did it run to its full potential? ...no, but it ran just fine
Pully, larger injectors 380's and a Jan tune. My opinion
Last edited by Intense; Jul 9, 2008 at 09:06 PM.