Next week I will be doing the install on the car.
http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/mini_cooper.html

Will let you know how the car responds, but am very excited to see the results.

 

Part of me wants you to do it, for us... as a guinea pig of sorts, but I feel the need to tell you that this topic has come up b4 and there were some serious concerns.

Please try a search here on the subject, if you have not. I know MINI2 has something. A lightened flywheel would be a more advisable move, at least that was the consensus from a few. I'm no expert for sure, just sharing what I seem to recall...

 

Won't it over-drive the water pump? Possible cavitation problems?

 

Before we just to any conclusions here... is this an underdrive pulley? I do not see it saying that it is an underdrive. If this is just a lightened pulley there will be no problems. If this is a smaller diamater, then you will actually be turning the supercharger slower, neglecting the benifits of the smaller pulley. if it is a larger diamater, you may run into problems with over reving the supercharger.

Can you give us some details on this product so that we know exactly what we are discussing?

 

Good call Pilo, it may be just a lightened pulley (less rotating mass, similar effect of a lighter flywheel).

 

A bit of search there reveals that they refer to it as the Ultra S Crank Pulley and it replaces the MINI's 7+ lb one with theirs that is 1.5 lbs...

0202004_ _ 7.00 2.20 1.00 5.00 01-02 Mini Cooper S 1.6L Supercharged Crank Pulley

The weight savings is several fold. But this, I believe, is not the same as a free-spinning mass such as a wheel/tire. It is belt-driven. For those of us with an Alta reduced pulley, we added weight, and not just a little. But, as Randy and a few others shared, this is barely a factor given that application. This is not to say that losing weight would not help, but that losing it there might make for some harmonic issues, and if I remember right, it would be best to lose it in the heavy dual mass flywheel...

But, hey we'll never know unless someone tries

_________________
2003 IB MCS

 

>>Before we just to any conclusions here... is this an underdrive pulley? I do not see it saying that it is an underdrive. If this is just a lightened pulley there will be no problems. If this is a smaller diamater, then you will actually be turning the supercharger slower, neglecting the benifits of the smaller pulley. if it is a larger diamater, you may run into problems with over reving the supercharger.
>>
>>Can you give us some details on this product so that we know exactly what we are discussing?

If you click on 'purchase', the desription of the pulley is -
'Ultra S Lightened Underdrive Crank Pulley'

 

Isnt the mini's crank pulley also the harmonic balancer?

--
Cheese

 

>>Isnt the mini's crank pulley also the harmonic balancer?
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>

That's what I thought, too. Hmmmm. I've seen the stock one, in all it's strange rubber/plastic/metal self. Comparing the mental image I've got of the stock unit with the billet-esque picture on the UR site and well, DRASTIC difference. Wowza.

Do hope it works for you! Having a shop do the work?

R

 

Well if there is rubber involved in the stocker, I wouldnt replace it unless I was building a racecar or wasnt planning on keeping the car for a very long time. The rubber is essentially a shock absorber for the crank.


--
Cheese

 

I have talked to a couple of the the mechanics over at my dealership, and they hae convinced me to stick with the pulley alone. That I will enjoy the power difference, but never know when it will give in, and that looks like a costly repair so I will probably go with something else. Thanks for all the info guys I really appreciate it.

 

I f i remember right phil from grafikdezine put the lightweight crank pulley and he has had no problems that i have heard of.

 

if you look at the details on the linked website,
this is an undersized crank pulley!

That means you are partially negating the effect of the undersized SC pulley!

Undersizing a crank pulley reduces the power 'robbing' by ancillary devices driven by the crank (waterpump, SC and others), but in this case will REDUCE the boost pressure.

Seems to me - on top of the issue with the harmonic balancing - an undersized crank pulley would work for un-breathed cars, and for turbo-charged cars, but not for supercharged cars.

Am I completely wrong?
M.

 

The pulley they are selling is the same size as the factory one. the only difference is the weight.

 

>>The pulley they are selling is the same size as the factory one. the only difference is the weight.
>>
>>

then they need to correct their web site where it specifically states for the S-series pulleys that they are 1) lighter and 2) underdrive pulleys.

Overall not a very convincing setup, especially if they can't even put the correct info on their site...

 

>>The pulley they are selling is the same size as the factory one. the only difference is the weight.
>>
>>
Does it eliminate the harmonic dampner?

 

I'd first be wanting to find-out what are the gains or benefits from doing this mod - actual numbers. If they are not deemed worthwhile (subjective I suppoe), then I personally wouldn't ponder it any further, especially given the possible ramifications (aforementioned harmonic concerns, being just one)...

I believe these guys have had this item available for at least several months, if not much longer. I'd ask how many they have sold to us MINI guys, and if they have any testemonials to share, or better yet, if they could put you in contact with those folks...

 

The only gain that will be found by installing one of these will be in Unorthodox racing's wallet.


--
Cheese

 

That's one of the reasons why we have these discussions

That money can get you a nice rear sway bar or an intake...

 

... or a BOV sound generator:

http://www.takakaira.co.jp/accessori...ightpager.html

 

>>... or a BOV sound generator:
>>
>>http://www.takakaira.co.jp/accessori...ightpager.html

Where do you find this stuff!?!?!

 

>>... or a BOV sound generator:
>>
>>http://www.takakaira.co.jp/accessori...ightpager.html

Andy,
I dont think you can advertise your performance package without being a sponsor.


--
Cheese

 

>>I f i remember right phil from grafikdezine put the lightweight crank pulley and he has had no problems that i have heard of.

correct dude,
phil does have it... and no problems

peace,
d

 

Bad Vibrations

I'll post a more complete rendition of this on the too site shortly, but let me begin by saying that it's good to be back and I'm only here to expressly address some questions that need some "good" answers. I am not here to provide schedules or any information regarding the blower program. The topic is that of aftermarket crank pulleys. Let me begin by saying that we have always called the pulley on the accessory drive end on the Honda cranks Harmonic Balancers. People never seemed to understand what we were talking about and so the word "pulley" was frequently used to avoid confusion. If you look carefully at a Honda "pulley", you'll find that it's not a single piece of metal. Typically, there's a nodular iron or steel hub and another "ring" of iron or steel surrounding it containing the belt grooves. The two parts are joined by a rubber layer, which is highly compressed and sandwiched between them. Why rubber? If you notice, many four cylinder engines over the years have used counter rotating shafts to help make the engine "feel" smoother. Reciprocating internal combustion engines and especially in-line four cylinder versions, all produce shock pulses, which are very apparent to the occupants of the car. Every engine produces a shock pulse each time an individual cylinder fires. So, in the case of the four cylinder variety, there are four large individual pulses for each 720 degrees of crank rotation. Each time there's a pulse, it causes the internal components to do a rapid acceleration-deceleration event. When you consider the mass of all the internal components and visualize all these parts stopping and starting during their reciprocating and rotating motions, the additional stress "spikes" tend to make it all the more reason for one to wonder how any of it can work for any length of time. The harmonic balancer is made with the rubber coupling so that, when the individual "spikes" occur, the inner portion may move with the crank, but the rubber connected outer ring's mass helps prevent the hub and crank from going as far or as fast during the spikes or pulses. Remember that the outer part had considerable mass, so it tends to want to stay in motion at the speed that it's traveling and that's why it can prevent excessive harsh motion by the crank and other internal parts. To put it simply, the harmonic balancer is a shock absorber for the engine and thus prevents the individual pulses from destroying everything in the engine. A quick bit of history; Back in the late '70's, all the Pro Stock engines had been reduced in displacement to allow the cars to weigh less. At that time the vehicle weight was based on engine "type" and total displacement. Typically, the engines were in the 330 cubic inch range and running 10,000 to 11,000 rpm was normal, especially in high gear at the traps. There began to be a lot of engines that were "exploding" their harmonic balancers on the big end. Aside from cutting the steering in half and blowing the front tires, large hunks were also finding their way into the grandstands and there were numerous injuries, many of which ended in death. NHRA immediately mandated that solid "balancers" were to be used from that point on. Keep in mind that a balancer can't be solid and function properly, but the rules were the rules. Moroso and a couple other companies who were tight with NHRA began making aluminum billet "balancers" immediately and everyone bought them so they'd be legal to race. All of a sudden, racers were getting only 10 passes from their crankshafts, which had previously lasted an entire season. Initially, most people thought the cranks were "bad", but after destroying engine after engine, a few knowledgeable engine people figured out where the problem actually was coming from and several companies that were capable of making functioning harmonic balancers sprang up over night. They are all still in the business to this day and their units are actually much better than the factory units of years before, as they are made from premium materials and optimized for high rpm applications. With this short bit of history finished, I'll begin to wind it up by stating what we do with the Honda engines. If the balancer has more belt grooves than the application needs, i.e. the power steering pulley, we machine it off. When it comes to the the pulleys that are actually a part of the outer portion of the balancer, we leave them intact. This procedure will not lighten the unbalanced hub substantialy, but the outer balancer ring will keep all its mass and function correctly. I also need to say that a large driven mass such as a blower or alternator, can have a slight dampening effect, but to actually work properly, the belt connecting the components to the crank would need to be 4" to 5" wide and the belt tension would be so great that it would wear out the number 1 main bearing as well as the bearings of the the driven parts in short order. It's especially important to keep the balancer "as is", if you're running an aluminum flywheel. The reduction in flywheel mass can also increase the pulsation shock strength and a higher level of vibration will immediately be observable. So if you lighten the flywheel,it's absolutely more necessary than ever to maintain the mass or the harmonic balancer. I realize that there's a lot of hype out there where manufacturers are promising this and that. The oversize crank pulleys can drive other geared or belted components faster due to the diameter ratio increase, but if you're deleting the balancer in the process, the short and long term side effects are going to hinge on your decisions. Larger diameter pulleys for the alternator, power steering and any other belt driven accessory are good ways to slow the speeds and drag of the those components, but when doing a large diameter crank pulley, the larger pulleys should actually be designed to fit "over" the stock balancer. Perhaps, someone will begin to make some good quality "functional" balancers some day, but until they do, you need to proceed carefully, as some good looks and minimal power gains can be off set by a ruined engine. I'm sure that there will be some fall out regarding what I'm saying here and to that effect I need to remind everyone that we do not manufacture hubs, big pulleys, or harmonic balancers for Hondas and none of what I've said is the least bit politically motivated.

And yes, any engine with a non-functional hub or balancer can ruin the crank driven oil pump and a whole lot more.

………………………….T.O.O. ………………………

 

"Bad Vibrations

I'll post a more complete rendition of this on the too site shortly, but let me begin by saying that it's good to be back and I'm only here to expressly address some questions that need some "good" answers. I am not here to provide schedules or any information regarding the blower program. The topic is that of aftermarket crank pulleys. Let me begin by saying that we have always called the pulley on the accessory drive end on the Honda cranks Harmonic Balancers. People never seemed to understand what we were talking about and so the word "pulley" was frequently used to avoid confusion. If you look carefully at a Honda "pulley", you'll find that it's not a single piece of metal. Typically, there's a nodular iron or steel hub and another "ring" of iron or steel surrounding it containing the belt grooves. The two parts are joined by a rubber layer, which is highly compressed and sandwiched between them. Why rubber? If you notice, many four cylinder engines over the years have used counter rotating shafts to help make the engine "feel" smoother. Reciprocating internal combustion engines and especially in-line four cylinder versions, all produce shock pulses, which are very apparent to the occupants of the car. Every engine produces a shock pulse each time an individual cylinder fires. So, in the case of the four cylinder variety, there are four large individual pulses for each 720 degrees of crank rotation. Each time there's a pulse, it causes the internal components to do a rapid acceleration-deceleration event. When you consider the mass of all the internal components and visualize all these parts stopping and starting during their reciprocating and rotating motions, the additional stress "spikes" tend to make it all the more reason for one to wonder how any of it can work for any length of time. The harmonic balancer is made with the rubber coupling so that, when the individual "spikes" occur, the inner portion may move with the crank, but the rubber connected outer ring's mass helps prevent the hub and crank from going as far or as fast during the spikes or pulses. Remember that the outer part had considerable mass, so it tends to want to stay in motion at the speed that it's traveling and that's why it can prevent excessive harsh motion by the crank and other internal parts. To put it simply, the harmonic balancer is a shock absorber for the engine and thus prevents the individual pulses from destroying everything in the engine. A quick bit of history; Back in the late '70's, all the Pro Stock engines had been reduced in displacement to allow the cars to weigh less. At that time the vehicle weight was based on engine "type" and total displacement. Typically, the engines were in the 330 cubic inch range and running 10,000 to 11,000 rpm was normal, especially in high gear at the traps. There began to be a lot of engines that were "exploding" their harmonic balancers on the big end. Aside from cutting the steering in half and blowing the front tires, large hunks were also finding their way into the grandstands and there were numerous injuries, many of which ended in death. NHRA immediately mandated that solid "balancers" were to be used from that point on. Keep in mind that a balancer can't be solid and function properly, but the rules were the rules. Moroso and a couple other companies who were tight with NHRA began making aluminum billet "balancers" immediately and everyone bought them so they'd be legal to race. All of a sudden, racers were getting only 10 passes from their crankshafts, which had previously lasted an entire season. Initially, most people thought the cranks were "bad", but after destroying engine after engine, a few knowledgeable engine people figured out where the problem actually was coming from and several companies that were capable of making functioning harmonic balancers sprang up over night. They are all still in the business to this day and their units are actually much better than the factory units of years before, as they are made from premium materials and optimized for high rpm applications. With this short bit of history finished, I'll begin to wind it up by stating what we do with the Honda engines. If the balancer has more belt grooves than the application needs, i.e. the power steering pulley, we machine it off. When it comes to the the pulleys that are actually a part of the outer portion of the balancer, we leave them intact. This procedure will not lighten the unbalanced hub substantialy, but the outer balancer ring will keep all its mass and function correctly. I also need to say that a large driven mass such as a blower or alternator, can have a slight dampening effect, but to actually work properly, the belt connecting the components to the crank would need to be 4" to 5" wide and the belt tension would be so great that it would wear out the number 1 main bearing as well as the bearings of the the driven parts in short order. It's especially important to keep the balancer "as is", if you're running an aluminum flywheel. The reduction in flywheel mass can also increase the pulsation shock strength and a higher level of vibration will immediately be observable. So if you lighten the flywheel,it's absolutely more necessary than ever to maintain the mass or the harmonic balancer. I realize that there's a lot of hype out there where manufacturers are promising this and that. The oversize crank pulleys can drive other geared or belted components faster due to the diameter ratio increase, but if you're deleting the balancer in the process, the short and long term side effects are going to hinge on your decisions. Larger diameter pulleys for the alternator, power steering and any other belt driven accessory are good ways to slow the speeds and drag of the those components, but when doing a large diameter crank pulley, the larger pulleys should actually be designed to fit "over" the stock balancer. Perhaps, someone will begin to make some good quality "functional" balancers some day, but until they do, you need to proceed carefully, as some good looks and minimal power gains can be off set by a ruined engine. I'm sure that there will be some fall out regarding what I'm saying here and to that effect I need to remind everyone that we do not manufacture hubs, big pulleys, or harmonic balancers for Hondas and none of what I've said is the least bit politically motivated.

And yes, any engine with a non-functional hub or balancer can ruin the crank driven oil pump and a whole lot more.

………………………….T.O.O. ………………………
" -- TOO from Endyn Racing Engines

--
Cheese