Suspension Alta PSRS for street use - How are they holding up?
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2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 111
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From: Toms River, NJ
Alta PSRS for street use - How are they holding up?
So I need to replace my lower control arm bushing and I'm thinking of going with ALTA's PSRS.
My stock bushing are 90% gone....95K miles of abuse so my ride is pretty rough already so I'm not concerned about how it will ride with the PSRS.
The question I have is, how well are they going to hold up over time? I'm an all season driver in NJ, about 30K a year. So I will be driving in Snow/Ice and Salt/Sand covered roads. My concern is that salt and sand is going to get in to the PSRS bushings and cause problems.
So who out there has the PSRS, how many miles do you have on them and how have they held up?
My other choice is to get some PowerFlex bushings.
Thanks
-ROB-
My stock bushing are 90% gone....95K miles of abuse so my ride is pretty rough already so I'm not concerned about how it will ride with the PSRS.
The question I have is, how well are they going to hold up over time? I'm an all season driver in NJ, about 30K a year. So I will be driving in Snow/Ice and Salt/Sand covered roads. My concern is that salt and sand is going to get in to the PSRS bushings and cause problems.
So who out there has the PSRS, how many miles do you have on them and how have they held up?
My other choice is to get some PowerFlex bushings.
Thanks
-ROB-
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,737
Likes: 4
From: Los Angeles
yes he does. he posted a write up on them on m|u so i followed his lead and ordered them myself.
PSRS
How much castor does the Bavaria bushing give you?
The other question I had for guys who have gone with the PSRS.
How many have gone for the full 1.5degrees of added castor? What is your feedback on handling?
How many of you have split the difference and added some anti-dive? How has this improved drive and accelaration out of corners?
IMHO we need anti lift to reduce weight transfer to the rear to help with traction to improve accelaration out of corners.
Anti dive helps limit toe changes under braking to make thing more stable.
I would be interested to hear anyones comments
Thanks
Joe
The other question I had for guys who have gone with the PSRS.
How many have gone for the full 1.5degrees of added castor? What is your feedback on handling?
How many of you have split the difference and added some anti-dive? How has this improved drive and accelaration out of corners?
IMHO we need anti lift to reduce weight transfer to the rear to help with traction to improve accelaration out of corners.
Anti dive helps limit toe changes under braking to make thing more stable.
I would be interested to hear anyones comments
Thanks
Joe
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,021
Likes: 5
From: Burlington, VT
My caster increased by 1.0° after adding the Bavarian Autosport bushings.
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I have had the Alta PSRS on my car for about 5 months now and have mostly positive things to say about them. First off, I was used to driving on 2 worn out rubber bushings and the change to a solid bushing with no movement felt like a night and day difference. My steering wheel felt easier to turn, no more torque steer, the car felt sharper at highway speeds, and my autox times slightly improved.
I already have a noisy car to start with (solid heim joint Alta rear control arms and a Magnaflow exhaust) but the PSRS didn't add any more significant noise. Occasionally, if I'm in a parking garage where I can hear my car's echos, I hear a faint noise associated with the PSRS. It's hard for me to explain in words, but it sort of sounds like a wooden ball gently bouncing inside a jar.
Overall, I'm extremely pleased with the PSRS, but I don't think this is for everyone. I'm not too sure how the longterm "streetability" of this unit will be due to the metal on metal travel. If you have a mostly stock suspension setup, I wouldn't recommend these for you. I think the factory bushings or the slightly more aggressive Bavarian Autosport bushings would be a cheaper, safer, longer lasting option.
One more comment, these were a real pain in the a$$ to install. I have access to a friend's local shop and have installed most of my parts by myself. This was by far the most challenging part that I have installed. After I removed the wheels, power steering motor, front driveshafts, and lowered the front subframe, I spent about 3 more hours removing the old worn out bushings (using a pneumatic hammer, wd-40, a blow torch, and a few more creative tools) and gently installed the new ones. Then, I almost forgot how to put everything back together. I think most shops would charge around $300-$500 labor to install these.
I already have a noisy car to start with (solid heim joint Alta rear control arms and a Magnaflow exhaust) but the PSRS didn't add any more significant noise. Occasionally, if I'm in a parking garage where I can hear my car's echos, I hear a faint noise associated with the PSRS. It's hard for me to explain in words, but it sort of sounds like a wooden ball gently bouncing inside a jar.
Overall, I'm extremely pleased with the PSRS, but I don't think this is for everyone. I'm not too sure how the longterm "streetability" of this unit will be due to the metal on metal travel. If you have a mostly stock suspension setup, I wouldn't recommend these for you. I think the factory bushings or the slightly more aggressive Bavarian Autosport bushings would be a cheaper, safer, longer lasting option.
One more comment, these were a real pain in the a$$ to install. I have access to a friend's local shop and have installed most of my parts by myself. This was by far the most challenging part that I have installed. After I removed the wheels, power steering motor, front driveshafts, and lowered the front subframe, I spent about 3 more hours removing the old worn out bushings (using a pneumatic hammer, wd-40, a blow torch, and a few more creative tools) and gently installed the new ones. Then, I almost forgot how to put everything back together. I think most shops would charge around $300-$500 labor to install these.
Last edited by cooper99; Jan 23, 2008 at 05:33 AM.
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2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 111
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From: Toms River, NJ
Thanks Cooper99 for the great information. I currently have stock suspension, but will most likely installing Cross Coil Overs that come with adjustable camber plates, adjustable end links, new tie rods and a few other parts when I replace the bushings. I think due to the NorthEast's weather and the fact that I am a daily driver I'm going to go with the PowerFlex or Bavarian bushings. Maybe when I get my 2nd MCS or possibly GP MCS, which will not be a daily driver, I'll install the PSRS.
Thanks Newbs49 for your feedback as well.
Thanks Newbs49 for your feedback as well.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,021
Likes: 5
From: Burlington, VT
I had no issues with the Bavarian Autosport bushings... but I never did get to try them through a Vermont winter. They were installed last spring, and the Cooper is sitting / getting repaired this winter. So, I don't know how winter salt and sand affects them. Sorry.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,737
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From: Los Angeles
Originally Posted by brownMINI(on M|U, snid on NAM)
I've had these in my car for a few weeks now. Over 500 miles of street driving, an autocross, and a 2-day time trial on a short track. I haven't had them out on a high speed track yet.
Firt impression: noise... and not the kinds of noises I was expecting. Oh the expected noises are there too. When I turn close to full lock, there's a "click" sound. There's a bit more noise transmitted into the cabin when hitting expansion joints, but nowhere near as much as I was expecting. In that regard, they're nice.
The strange noises... When I first started the car, the starter / engine noise was louder. Then I went through a bunch of looking (and a trip to a mechanic) to try to find the source of increased air intake sound. Then, on a 200 mile trip to the track, I though my transmission might be about to grenade. I couldn't find the source of the "intake" sound, and it was sound under engine load, so maybe it was my Midlands about to go boom! And then there were a few moments of a humming / whining sound at ~50mph in fifth gear. All these sounds seemed to come from about the same place - under the dash on the driver's side. In the pedal box area... actually, right about where the trailing arm bushing is on the other side of the firewall.
I finally decided (based on a little input from someone else who had done poly control arm bushings in a MINI) that all these sounds were just the stiffer bushing transmitting more noise through the bushing. All these sounds were always there, just quieter. The new, stiffer bushings were amplifying the noises by transmitting them from the control arm to the front subframe. At least, that's the story I'm going with for now.
Performance: Well, comparing these new bushings to my old ones that needed to be replaced isn't quite fair. But, that's all I can do. The "offset for increased caster" was noticable for the first few days. More effort was needed on the steering wheel to get the wheels to turn. I stopped noticing that after a few days.
The car handles great again with the new bushings. No more losing the back end in long sweepers. Of course, I didn't have that problem when the stock bushings were in good shape. So, the new bushings probably aren't improving the handling. Hopefully they'll improve the longevity of the bushing though.
So, for now, they get an "eh" rating. They're better than worn out stock bushings, but so are new stock bushings. If they last longer, they'll be worth it. But, if they last longer, they won't die until the car has over 220,000 miles on it.
The folks that did the install had the following comments:
The bushings were not marked in any way to help determine the orientation to install them in. Remember that these are offset... It took a little while to figure out how to install them to have the offset be in the correct location. And no, I don't know the details of what orientation that is.
Also, on the test drive, the tech who is also a BMWCCA club racer was "amazed" at the turn in of my car. Granted, there's a fair bit of other stuff on my car to effect that, and the tech didn't drive it before installing the bushings.
A very good alignment was done on the car after the install. Old school string box, straightedges, and level / gauges. And lots of care. The alignment came out perfect. Camber dead even side to side. Toe dead at 0 with the steering wheel perfectly centered. This alignment was better even than the one done with the latest laser based alignment table, which was done by a fellow autocrosser who did extra to get the alignment right. Proof that the tools don't make all the difference, the person using the tools does. Find someone who will take the time and effort to get things done right. And don't complain too much when you have to pay for that time and effort. It's worth it in the end.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 2,021
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From: Burlington, VT
I think we tracked down the source for the air intake sound... there was a grommet in the firewall that was not seated completely. Of course, that was found while the car was being rebuilt, and I haven't had a chance to see if that really stopped that noise. And the car will soon have a lot more noises, so I may never know. 
Never seen them, never installed them, but I rode in a car that did and it was enough to make me wonder why anyone would use them. Only months old and rattle-rattle-rattle. Yikes....
Quote:
"I hear a faint noise associated with the PSRS. It's hard for me to explain in words, but it sort of sounds like a wooden ball gently bouncing inside a jar."
This is exactly the sound I am hearing from my front suspension when it is cold (ie. 32 Degrees F or lower). I had Chad at DT install the PSRS's last fall and I liked what they did for handling and anti-lift. But I think they are the cause of the aforementioned noise...but only until the suspension "warms up".
Even on an extremely cold day like today (10-15 degrees) after driving for 10-15 minutes, the rattling goes away. I don't know how they are going to hold up to the salty Michigan and Ontario highways.
"I hear a faint noise associated with the PSRS. It's hard for me to explain in words, but it sort of sounds like a wooden ball gently bouncing inside a jar."
This is exactly the sound I am hearing from my front suspension when it is cold (ie. 32 Degrees F or lower). I had Chad at DT install the PSRS's last fall and I liked what they did for handling and anti-lift. But I think they are the cause of the aforementioned noise...but only until the suspension "warms up".
Even on an extremely cold day like today (10-15 degrees) after driving for 10-15 minutes, the rattling goes away. I don't know how they are going to hold up to the salty Michigan and Ontario highways.
Just bumped into this thread right after my sales manager posted this:
CLICK HERE
Has links to lots of good information from NAM!
Let me know if I can answer any questions or concerns!
CLICK HERE
Has links to lots of good information from NAM!
Let me know if I can answer any questions or concerns!
Has the issue of noise been taken care of ? I've read the above posts in your listing, but even DrO. still has issues with set screws. Plus a few are having them welded. Please address some of the issues posted in the PSRS thread.
I'm not sure which way to go on these frt. bushings.
I'm not sure which way to go on these frt. bushings.
Former Vendor
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 180
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Has the issue of noise been taken care of ? I've read the above posts in your listing, but even DrO. still has issues with set screws. Plus a few are having them welded. Please address some of the issues posted in the PSRS thread.
I'm not sure which way to go on these frt. bushings.
I'm not sure which way to go on these frt. bushings.
I will need to ask, but that might be in the instructions now.
Thanks for the response. I know a few have done that, only to have them loosen again, thus the weld process. I like the design, but the set screw issues make me and others hold off the purchase.
Former Vendor
Joined: Sep 2006
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I'll follow up on this tomorrow with Jeff.
Manufacturer
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Oregon
There are 2 things that can cause a noise. Loose set screws or pot holes. As most users will confirm, driving down the road, there is basically ZERO difference compared to stock (as far as NVH). Hit a big bump and instead of a light thud from the rubber OEM bushing bottoming out, you get a little harsher thud.
There have been a few people that had the set screws come loose, and this makes a bad noise. But when re-tightened, they were all good. A couple of guys locally welded them onto the arm. This a also a good way, but not necessary.
There have been a few people that had the set screws come loose, and this makes a bad noise. But when re-tightened, they were all good. A couple of guys locally welded them onto the arm. This a also a good way, but not necessary.