Please use this thread to comment on the proposed Classifications for the 1st MOTD Mini Show

You can download the spreadsheet from this post.

 

I got 21 points... I wouldn't have put myself in the Mad Modder category though, because most of my mods are fairly low key and style related.

I'm not exactly sure where you are going with the data... are you going to use it to figure out the cut-off for Mad Modder vs Modded MCS (ex: Anyone over 20 ponits goes into Mad Modder)?

Impressive job with the spreadsheet. That's a pretty comprehensive list! I didn't see anywhere to give points for painted arches, gauge face replacements or attachment-accessories like bike racks, though.

How do you choose the category winner? Greatest number of points or some other factor like 'best executed mod plan'? The cars I always enjoy looking at most are obviously well planned... someone chose a look and went after it with each and every mod they did... tuner / racer / ice-bling / euro / low-key... I might not want to drive their car every day, but I can appreciate the design more than just the piling on of the mods.

 

All very good questions, thanks for your input Aaron.

The point level is determine the cut off from Stock to Modded to Mad-Modder. Classification, thats all. We looked at many different ways to class the cars and we kept coming back to creating a point system.

There are items missing, we did try to think of everything. One of the reasons we are asking for assistance is to find the items we may have missed.

Judges will not be using this point system, otherwise whomever has the most mods would win no matter how poorly they were integrated. We are still working on how the judging will be done. We need to have the classes in order to work out the judging.

 

I think my total last time was 22 points, and I consider it Mod.

edit: and I'm hoping we can push for best executed like you mention agranger

 

Gnatster and I usually match up pretty well with our thoughts on mods and planning the work / working the plan. Our cars went in drastically different directions, but I can see all the little extras that he put into making the details right on the Gnat. I wasn't expecting it to be a pure points contest... though he might have a good shot at winning that one! :D

Seeing that Excel sheet just reminde me of all the mods I still have yet to do!

 

26 points with those listed.....

Additions...

Engine:

Alta Air Diverter or something similar

Brakes:

Higher Performance Brake Pads

Exterior:

Custom Paint Work

Interior:

Aftermarket Amp for Stereo System

Sound Deadener, Dynamat etc.

Custom Dash

Custom Paint Work



I'm sure others will also have something to add as Aaron did above.

Overall a very complete list with just a few additions needed.

Almost forgot, anything over 30 points goes to Mad Modder IMO.

 

I also thought about some full custom stuff... LED light mods or ones like my remote radar detector mount.

 

Ooops....didnt know this was here.....i posted this in the download post

 

How about categories based on where you were taking the mods...

Mad Modder
CleanDesign
Agressive
Stock (or almost stock)
Classic Mini

 

I think it all depends on what kind of show we want this to be. You can have the common competitive show where you have a podium of Best in Class winners, and then have one Best of Show.

Another option that is used as more "low-key" shows is a bit less competitive. You basically think up all kinds of cool categories. Cleanest paint, best vinyl, best audio install, lowest car, widest wheels, best light mods, loudest exhaust....etc. I dont know how well that work....it's a bit less competitive, but allows everyone to feel that they have a chance to win since there are so many different oppurtunities for different tastes.

Those are just suggestions and you could easily modify them or combine them to a certain extent. I just grabbed the ideas (and some of the categories mentioned above) from the Euro car show scene.

I just think it's gonna be especially hard in the MINI community to develop a "fair" judged show. As can easily be seen on NAM, the diversity in owners is huge. We have almost every style modder on this site....that's not normal for car forums. It ranges from mad modders hundreds of stand-out mods, neon lights and flame decals, race/auto-x cars, clean euro rides, OEM+ cars that appear stock while being modified....the list goes on. This may be why having multiple different categories to win could be helpful.

I dunno....just spouting thoughts off the top of my head to attempt to help

 

We're doing 1st 2nd 3rd in each class and a best in show. Not sure about a podium ceremony though :impatient

We briefly discussed the optional categories for best ICE, loudest exhaust, etc. but opted to keep it simple for the first time around. All of those will be something for next year.

For the classes we've been round and round on them for quite a while and decided on Mad-mod, Mod MCS, Mod MC, Stock, and Classic. Believe me we were throwing around a theme class, color classification, a aestetic class, a track class, etc. We finally decided on what we have, again, for simplicity the first time around. After that we struggled to agree on what is and is not a Mod, and finally came up with the point system. Of course we would miss a few things which is why we came to the forum to help with that, and things have been pointed out already. The final piece to the puzzle is deciding how many points keeps you in stock, how many for Mod, and how many for Mad-modder.

As far as we know there has never been a Mini show with classifications like this. The most separation is saw at a show was a MCS class, a MC class, and two classic classes. Never did they try to separate modified Minis

 

What is the judging setup going to be like? Multiple judges? How will they be chosen? What will the judging criteria be? Will they basically have score cars (e.g. 8/10 points interior, 9/10 points exterior...etc)?

 

Initial discrussions indicated that it will be 2 judges who are committee members that have not entered, and if they have they are not allowed to judge their class. They will have been judges before and know alot about the cars and what can be done with them. We do not want it to be a popularity contest, which is why we opted for no peoples choice (except best in show, participant vote I think) and probably won't use outsiders from the committee to judge.

Judging will be a point system, though not finalized yet will include things like interior, exterior, engine, wheels/tires, mods (direction, execution, overall appearance), etc. We have a good model to work off of and just need to modifiy it to suit our needs.

Once we have classing nailed down we'll get judging done.

 

I hate to use my car as an example as it probably appears to be self centered....but it's probably better than putting words into other people's mouths.

The questions deals with how the 2 judges will determine good mods and "bad" mods.

In my case, i have aggressively wide wheels and stretched tires. In the shows I've attended (non mini) this summer....those attributes are given positive points for style in the wheel/tire points box. At MINI events I've heard people mention that my wheels and tires are the wrong size and don't fit......if the judges both happened to feel this way, it seems as though it would be viewed as a reason to not give full points. It just happens to be a difference in styling opinions....but, will there be a way to level this out or will it be based on the opinion of two people? As i said above...I'm only bringing my car into this as an example....the same could be applied to vinyl or neons which are often seen as a reason to deduct points at many shows....but maybe they should be considered a positive thing at the MINI show.

If you remove opinion completely though....it will just become a matter of counting the number of mods(good or bad), which clearly isn't good either.

I dont know...it just seems like with the MINI community being so diverse, personal judge opinion is going to play a very large part in it...especially with just 2 judges. It's already showing in the way the points were distributed for classification and the lack of inclusion for different styles.

 

Hopefully the Judges tastes will vary as that would help to balance things out. That and we can hope the judges can set aside, for the most part, their personal feelings. I mean, clashing colors and parts falling off are easy to say don't deserve points. But style should be more open.

 

A few points here:

We already know that no what criteria we chose to for classification someone is going to be unhappy. Thats the nature of the beast.

Judging has yet to be decided. First we wanted to get a handle on how to class the cars. We wanted something that was simple for our 1st event. This way we can all learn and make it better in subsequent years.

No matter how we justify the classes there are going to be people that think they are mis-classed. I've had spreadsheets come back with as few as 15 points that think they are Mad-Modders if only because the Mad-Modder thread says it takes 15 mods.

The idea of limiting to 5 classes comes from decision to limit entries to 50 cars. We came up with that due to space limits and ease of processing that number of Minis in the alloted time frame with the small amount of people that volunteered. We wanted to have more then just 2 or 3 cars in each class. We felt that being best in a class of 2 is a hollow victory. This will allow for more entrants into each class.

This is a work in progress, we welcome your comments, in fact, encourage them. If you are interested in helping us contact Ozarkroots.

 

I'm looking forward to the competition... either displaying Jango or walking through the cars, admiring the mods and taking pics for future mods!

It's tough to include every possible mod and it's true that MINI Modders tend to head in one direction that the car generally takes us towards, but I don't think that the Excel sheet is "done", so maybe they can adjust for different styles a bit. Personally, I love the 'stretched' look on a Euro-d car... especially if it has been streamlined, mono-chromed, shaved, etc. Very few MINIs go that direction, but it's a great look when done right.

Gnatster, you are correct... there is always gonna be someone who is unhappy. My hat is off to anyone, though, who is willing to take on this size of a challenge and help to add one more layer of fun to MOTD.

My thanks to all, in advance, who are organizing this and any other event!

PS: If you want to help out with a day drive, please speak up here: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=116511

 

Shouldn't you have an odd number of judges so there won't be a tie as far as votes. One judge likes one car, the other likes another, who wins?

 

It's a points system so it will be based on the total points at the end. One judge does exterior, interior the other does wheels, paint, etc. They'll do the same categories for each car so they are judged equally. In the event of a tie there will be some sort of tie breaker category. I've been to many shows and normally there are two judges per car. I've been to others that had 8.

example:
Car #1
exterior: clean, no real blemishes - 9/10
interior: moderatly clean - 7/10
wheels: clean - 5/5
overall appearance: mismash of vinyl, CF, and chrome. tacky - 6/10
Total: 27/35

Car #2
exterior: clean, few scratches and blemishes - 7/10
interior: spotless - 10/10
wheels: one curbed wheel - 4/5
overall appearance: complete new body kit, painted arches, consistent theme, tasteful - 9/10
Total: 30/35

edit: obviously the above is not exactly what we will judge on, but just to give you an idea of how it works.

 

Has there been any thought to letting the entrants being the judges through popular voting? I've seen that used and it seems to work well.

 

We discussed that and it would just turn into a popularity contest. We want to give credit to those that put alot of time and effort into tuning their mini and/or making it unique, not to those that post alot on NAM, M|U, and Mini2.

I've personally been to two peoples choice shows and will never go to them again. The cars that deserved to win did not, and the club members voted for their own member AT THEIR OWN SHOW. I feel it's laziness on the part of the organizers when they go for popular vote.

Our best in show award will be entrant vote.

 

Has there been any consideration towards adding the minimalist/euro type mods i had mentioned? It seems as though it has already sorta turned into a popularity contest catered to a certain kind of styling that is popular to a few of the big modded cars here on NAM and has excluded those who style in a different way.

 

The idea behind the spreadsheet was to try and get a gauge as to where the class the cars. The spreadsheet has absolutely nothing to do with the judging, only where the cars will be classed. We thought it would be nice to break out the big modded cars from those that don't have as many and from those that have only a few. It is impossible to account for every mod and every detail each one us brings to the table. Speaking for myself and not for the committee the last thing I want is for the community as a whole to think this is at all skewed towards any particular style.

This phase is only to class the cars, this is to prevent a situation where someone brings a brand new fresh of the dealer floor Mini in pristine shape from walking away with it all compared to someone that has spent years putting together the perfect combination of mods and details to create their vision of a Mini yet has a few chips in the bonnet since they use the car. There will be no one perfect way to class the cars and if we lump them all into one group it does not take creativity and ingenuity into account.

We think we have a pretty good handle on where the cars should be classed but we also plan on allowing people to class their own cars. Judges will be looking at different things in each class. We still need to hammer out the judging portion but until we had an idea of the classes we could not begin to create guidelines.

We have certain limits, one being the number of entrants. There is only so much space to park the cars in the area we chose. Within that limit we want to be sure various examples of how people mod are represented yet still have some depth. Sure we could have had a billion little classes but is it really fun to be thought of the best in the group when the group is comprised of 2.

This way the big modded, the middle modded and the little to no mods each has some depth of entries. If all this is about who has the most then we just hand the trophy to Sid or myself or one of the others that has tons of mods and be done with it. But thats not how we see it. It's a holistic approach of who has created an example of a well thought out and executed approach and is able is articulate that by showing the car.

In the end Rally, if you have only have a few mods or details and they are pulled off quite well lending themselves to a balanced and coherent look and feel then you can do quite well. On the other hand if you cobbled together every possible mod you can fit and it's a hack job then you'll walk away with nothing.

 

As the overall co-ordinator for the MOTD car show there are a few points that I would like to make.
(1) The over riding goal of the car show is to highlight the diversity and creativity in the mini community by displaying examples of what people are doing in personalizing their MINI.

(2) This car show is meant to be a fun event which will let people see the cars up close and personal, meeting the owners, asking questions about changes to the cars and in general having a good time. The organizers are not attempting to take themselves too seriously.

(3) Speaking for myself, I have no direct or indirect connection with NAM. NAM has not made any demands of me or the other organizers and being the independent person I am as well as gnatster, we would view any attempt to influence us unacceptable. To be up front about this, NAM has contributed funds toward the prizes without restriction on how it is expended. In short, this event is approved in the general scope of MOTD with NO oversite or restriction of any kind.

(4) I have NO hidden agenda toward any particular style of modifications and I see no problem with a minimalist approach competing in a mod class. The judges will be judging based on the general impression a car presents to the judges and that can cover almost any theme.

(5) I think the statement made by one of the other organizers was that 2 of the judges would be from the organizing committee but that does not mean that there will only be 2 judges. In all likelyhood there will be at least 3 and maybe 5 judges, representing as broad a range of viewpoints as possible.

(6) The process of classification has already consumed many hours of work by the committe and gnatster in particular and the members are trying to devise a system that is acceptable to as many people as possible, realizing that not everyone will be happy with the result. Never the less, we are doing the best we can at this first attempt to do this and keep the spirit of MOTD.

(7) Anyone can offer suggestions or criticism as long as that is done in a helpful manner.

(8) The classification phase must end soon so that we can proceed to the matter of registraion, posting of rules and guidelines, defining judging paramaters and finding people to judge the show. If anyone has comments about classes now is the time to speak-up.

I see that gnaster has made a post while I was working on this and his coments only reinforce my thoughts and it is interesting to note the agreement between our views even thought I have not spoken to him recently.

If anyone has a particular problem please PM ozarkroots with the issue.
I take full and complete responsibility for this project and its results.
Del Lamb - ozarkroots

 

That would solve all my issues too...thanks. I understand that the spreadsheet wasn't about judging...more about classing. I was just worried about some cars being mis-classed which would actually be unfair to the other cars. I just feel that my car now would probably be fair competition in the mid level mod class....but point wise it was put into the low mod class because many of my mods weren't given points.....

but of course....if we are able to bump our cars up into the class we think is reasonable...that solves that.

It still comes down to judges taste on some things like my wheel fitment or someone's use of neons....but that's true with all shows and i guess something that i wouldn't consider a problem/issue.

I hope my criticism was constructive ....I was just trying to help because i was really excited to hear that you guys were putting this on. Thank you guys for the work you've done thus far, and thanks for the work that lies ahead. It's appreciated

Hopefully i have something cool to enter into the show