R50/53 J.D. Powers "Initial Quality Study" -- more info
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4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Baltimore, MD
The recent study released by J.D. Powers and Associates, a powerful consumer advocacy agency, found the MINI wanting when compared with other car companies who have released new models in the recent past. Others here have posted links to the press release so you may have seen it before (read it here).
After reading the text I was a little disturbed that there was no mention of the methodology of the study -- that is to say, what questions did they ask? How did they weight the data? Being the skeptical sort, I wrote to J.D. Powers and asked essentially those questions. I received this response today:
What I draw from this is that all reported problems receive equal weight so, a cosmetic defect in the interior carries the same statistical power as a breakdown that puts the car in the shop for a week. I don't know about you but this strikes me as crude and un-scientific. Perhaps I'm just burnt that my choice of vehicle faired so poorly, thus impugning my ability to make wise choices. Or it could be that someone with a lot of clout is using statistics to propagate a skewed version of the truth.
"There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics"
-- Benjamin Disraeli
After reading the text I was a little disturbed that there was no mention of the methodology of the study -- that is to say, what questions did they ask? How did they weight the data? Being the skeptical sort, I wrote to J.D. Powers and asked essentially those questions. I received this response today:
The J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality ratings are based on owner-reported problems. They are problems from the owner's point of view and contain a combination of outright failures (e.g., broken items/features) as well as aspects of the vehicle that don't operate/function as the owner expects them to and hence owners consider them to be "things gone wrong." They are 'failures of design' from the owners' perspective.
A new quality paradigm has emerged in the automotive industry as the level of initial quality (as measured at about 90 days of ownership) has improved. The days of catastrophic engine and transmission failures at 90 days of ownership have all but disappeared. As a result, consumers are now focusing on the functionality of the vehicle and its features in addition to outright failures.
A new quality paradigm has emerged in the automotive industry as the level of initial quality (as measured at about 90 days of ownership) has improved. The days of catastrophic engine and transmission failures at 90 days of ownership have all but disappeared. As a result, consumers are now focusing on the functionality of the vehicle and its features in addition to outright failures.
"There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics"
-- Benjamin Disraeli
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Godfrey, IL USA
I heard a story on NPR when this report came out...they did mention that the MINI had fared poorly, but the other vehicle they talked about was the Hummer. The interviewer was speaking with an editor of one of the big auto magazines (Chuba Chirpa or something like that), according to him the biggest complaint re: the Hummer was the fuel economy...fuel economy!! in a Hummer!! duh! So apparently some bonehead that buys a Hummer and then complains about the fuel economy is taken seriously by these people and their complaint counts as much as a real quality problem does...sheesh.
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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The entire methodology that J.D. Powers uses is flawed.
The complaints need to be waited based on expense to repair, time in shop, car still driveable, safety related etc.
Complaints that have nothing to do with something breaking or failing should be put into an entirely different study. Complaining about the ride in a sports car or the mpg in a massive truck should not even count in the study and should be waited zero.
The complaints need to be waited based on expense to repair, time in shop, car still driveable, safety related etc.
Complaints that have nothing to do with something breaking or failing should be put into an entirely different study. Complaining about the ride in a sports car or the mpg in a massive truck should not even count in the study and should be waited zero.
Coordinator :: Gulf Coast & Panhandle MINIs
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: In the Tube
I was one of the people who were asked to fill out the survey. Having nothing but praise for my MCS in the survey, I'm wondering how many MINI owners were in the over all survey and how many truly had legitimate complaints. Questions like "Do you feel the doors open wide enough for easy access" or "Do you feel there are enough cup holders" may be relevant to some people, but I didn't by my MINI because of the number of cup holders.
I'm wishing I scanned the blank survey now to let all of you see the questions asked and the categories they were listed in. It was 6 pages of small print questions.
I'm wishing I scanned the blank survey now to let all of you see the questions asked and the categories they were listed in. It was 6 pages of small print questions.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 7,062
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From: Boston, MA
>>according to him the biggest complaint re: the Hummer was the fuel economy...fuel economy!! in a Hummer!! duh!<<
My biggest complaint about my MINI is the fuel economy. It's the only thing I'm going to really complain about at my 10k service.
Well, I abhor the auto AC as well, but there's nothing that can be done about that.
My biggest complaint about my MINI is the fuel economy. It's the only thing I'm going to really complain about at my 10k service.
Well, I abhor the auto AC as well, but there's nothing that can be done about that.
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6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,330
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From: VA Beach
>>My biggest complaint about my MINI is the fuel economy. It's the only thing I'm going to really complain about at my 10k service.
>>
>>Well, I abhor the auto AC as well, but there's nothing that can be done about that.
Yeah, my fuel economy isn't the greatest either, but it's not (quite) as bad as what some folks have posted.
I Love the auto AC. If you don't care for it, you should be able to adjust it manually and turn off the 'Auto' part of it.
>>
>>Well, I abhor the auto AC as well, but there's nothing that can be done about that.
Yeah, my fuel economy isn't the greatest either, but it's not (quite) as bad as what some folks have posted.
I Love the auto AC. If you don't care for it, you should be able to adjust it manually and turn off the 'Auto' part of it.
4th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
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I was one of the people who were asked to fill out the survey. Having nothing but praise for my MCS in the survey, I'm wondering how many MINI owners were in the over all survey and how many truly had legitimate complaints.
I filled out the survey and I answered honestly and objectively at the time of the survey I had 5 significants problems and since have had 4 more...sun roof rattles, dash rattles, driver side window loose and rattle, rear hatch rattle, defective runflat, broken seat frames on both driver and passsenger seats, blown air compressor, blown supercharger.....all fixed except for rattles which are usually unfixable if in the dash...
I think JD Power does a nice job and is objective in their research,,,they definitely don't lie or distort the facts...lol..there is just no reason to...I bought my mini before any such reviews were in, that's why Consumers Review usually won't recommend a car till the 2nd year after the results start showing up, except for Honda, etc because of their proven track record....would I buy the mini now after the reviews are in.....maybe, but not only related to the build quality, but also more cars to choose from today than last year..I'd have to drive the others to compare and think about the build quality issue....I'd love to hear from those mini owners that have purchased their cars in the last 6 months with some fair milage on them to see how they are faring....to deny there were problems with 02 models is to hide your head in the sand...
I filled out the survey and I answered honestly and objectively at the time of the survey I had 5 significants problems and since have had 4 more...sun roof rattles, dash rattles, driver side window loose and rattle, rear hatch rattle, defective runflat, broken seat frames on both driver and passsenger seats, blown air compressor, blown supercharger.....all fixed except for rattles which are usually unfixable if in the dash...
I think JD Power does a nice job and is objective in their research,,,they definitely don't lie or distort the facts...lol..there is just no reason to...I bought my mini before any such reviews were in, that's why Consumers Review usually won't recommend a car till the 2nd year after the results start showing up, except for Honda, etc because of their proven track record....would I buy the mini now after the reviews are in.....maybe, but not only related to the build quality, but also more cars to choose from today than last year..I'd have to drive the others to compare and think about the build quality issue....I'd love to hear from those mini owners that have purchased their cars in the last 6 months with some fair milage on them to see how they are faring....to deny there were problems with 02 models is to hide your head in the sand...
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,300
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From: Florida
No offense miniblues but I got my MINI in June '02 and now have around 13000 miles on it and have yet to have a problem. I also was asked to fill out a JD Powers survey and found the majority of questions to be unrelated to owning a 'sport' auto. Are there enough cup holders indeed. This car was made for people who are car lovers, not for car riders.
_________________
Member #47
2002 Dark Silver Mini S white roof and mirrors with Premium and Sport pkgs.
He has come and his name is MINI ME
_________________
Member #47
2002 Dark Silver Mini S white roof and mirrors with Premium and Sport pkgs.
He has come and his name is MINI ME
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 205
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From: Seattle
The killer problem with the J.D. Power survey, and the Consumer Reports car surveys as well, is this: owners self-classify problems as "major" based on their own expectations of the car and -- just as important -- the brand.
The Consumer Reports car ratings show you seas of "good" (red) dots for Hondas and Toyotas because owners claim to CR they had fewer "major" problems with their cars. But when you buy a Toyota or Honda, you expect it's going to be bulletproof, and your default view is that your car IS bulletproof. So when a problem comes up, how "major" is it? Aaah, it's minor... I know my car is really bulletproof. (Plus, if I admit it's not, I admit I made a dumb purchase decision.) So a Toyota might get a positive review despite a few problems that would earn a Chevy a black dot.
With MINI owners, those that expected Honda/Toyota quality are going to complain more about certain problems than those who are prior owners of European, enthusiast or (especially) British vehicles. From a build quality point of view the Mini leaves something to be desired if you're coming over from a Toyota Corolla, but it's leagues ahead of most European compact cars. How you characterize Mini quality depends on your own preconceptions. And everybody's preconceptions and expectations differ.
That, in short, is why you shouldn't pay any attention to J.D. Power or Consumer Reports.
The Consumer Reports car ratings show you seas of "good" (red) dots for Hondas and Toyotas because owners claim to CR they had fewer "major" problems with their cars. But when you buy a Toyota or Honda, you expect it's going to be bulletproof, and your default view is that your car IS bulletproof. So when a problem comes up, how "major" is it? Aaah, it's minor... I know my car is really bulletproof. (Plus, if I admit it's not, I admit I made a dumb purchase decision.) So a Toyota might get a positive review despite a few problems that would earn a Chevy a black dot.
With MINI owners, those that expected Honda/Toyota quality are going to complain more about certain problems than those who are prior owners of European, enthusiast or (especially) British vehicles. From a build quality point of view the Mini leaves something to be desired if you're coming over from a Toyota Corolla, but it's leagues ahead of most European compact cars. How you characterize Mini quality depends on your own preconceptions. And everybody's preconceptions and expectations differ.
That, in short, is why you shouldn't pay any attention to J.D. Power or Consumer Reports.
Coordinator :: Gulf Coast & Panhandle MINIs
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 12,662
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From: In the Tube
>> I was one of the people who were asked to fill out the survey. Having nothing but praise for my MCS in the survey, I'm wondering how many MINI owners were in the over all survey and how many truly had legitimate complaints.
>>....to deny there were problems with 02 models is to hide your head in the sand...
Miniblues – I was asked to fill out the survey, not give the opinion of others who have a MINI. I have been absolutely trouble free for the 8 months I’ve been driving my ’02 MCS. Most of my motoring is to and from work a short distance, but I put 4 days of the most intense driving on my MCS at Deal’s Gap than most will put on theirs in the lifetime they own it.
On this 4 day trip I logged over 1700 miles. I ran at 100 MPH + for better than 1 hour straight – if only the State Trooper’s radar didn’t hit the lead car maybe longer. I drove around posted turns of 20 MPH at 55 to 60 MPH. Accelerated to well over 100 MPH only to jam the breaks to almost dead stop then accelerate again to 100 MPH. Drove in 2nd gear only at speeds of 20 MPH to 75 MPH constantly breaking and accelerating in stretches less than a city block.
I have no rattles, I have no motor problems, I have no interior or exterior problems and I am one totally sold on what the MINI was designed for. It’s cute, sporty, small car performance and handling rolled into one hell of a package for the price.
I DO NOT feel the J D Powers survey is accurate to the MINI, but what would I know. Maybe it does need more cup holders.
_________________
02 MCS ~ Sport, Aero, Rally Lights ~
>>....to deny there were problems with 02 models is to hide your head in the sand...
Miniblues – I was asked to fill out the survey, not give the opinion of others who have a MINI. I have been absolutely trouble free for the 8 months I’ve been driving my ’02 MCS. Most of my motoring is to and from work a short distance, but I put 4 days of the most intense driving on my MCS at Deal’s Gap than most will put on theirs in the lifetime they own it.
On this 4 day trip I logged over 1700 miles. I ran at 100 MPH + for better than 1 hour straight – if only the State Trooper’s radar didn’t hit the lead car maybe longer. I drove around posted turns of 20 MPH at 55 to 60 MPH. Accelerated to well over 100 MPH only to jam the breaks to almost dead stop then accelerate again to 100 MPH. Drove in 2nd gear only at speeds of 20 MPH to 75 MPH constantly breaking and accelerating in stretches less than a city block.
I have no rattles, I have no motor problems, I have no interior or exterior problems and I am one totally sold on what the MINI was designed for. It’s cute, sporty, small car performance and handling rolled into one hell of a package for the price.
I DO NOT feel the J D Powers survey is accurate to the MINI, but what would I know. Maybe it does need more cup holders.
_________________
02 MCS ~ Sport, Aero, Rally Lights ~ 
1st Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: California
Ditto for me on the *lack* of problems with my MINI. 12 months, 12,000 miles and all I can attest to is a rattle in the rear hatch. I drive it Hard from time to time like sndwave (no Deals Gap for me, though I've heard about that road from my Ducati pals!)
It's a well-built economical sports car in the grand British tradi - er, let me re-phrase that: It's a well-built economical sports car that transcends the British tradition!
It's a well-built economical sports car in the grand British tradi - er, let me re-phrase that: It's a well-built economical sports car that transcends the British tradition!
Coordinator :: Gulf Coast & Panhandle MINIs
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 12,662
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From: In the Tube
>>It's a well-built economical sports car in the grand British tradi - er, let me re-phrase that: It's a well-built economical sports car that transcends the British tradition!
I hear you.
I hear you.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,359
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From: New Jersey
>>>>My biggest complaint about my MINI is the fuel economy. It's the only thing I'm going to really complain about at my 10k service.
>>>>
>>Yeah, my fuel economy isn't the greatest either, but it's not (quite) as bad as what some folks have posted.
>>
I was looking to get a fun to drive sports car. Somewhat below average mpg would have been acceptable to me. I got decent mileage (22-24mpg) until I installed the intake and Helix pulley. Ever since then I now average 25-27mpg (occasionally 28!) and I have a total pocket rocket! I used to get gas at 1/4 tank left with 215 miles now I regularly can go 260-270 miles. Just think - my pullied MCS can blow away the 215HP 94 and 95 Mustang GTs I had that I only averaged 17mpg. Now I have great looks, incredible fun and unbelievable performance and get another 10mpg!!!
I LOVE my fuel economy! This is unreal, IMO.
>>I Love the auto AC. If you don't care for it, you should be able to adjust it manually and turn off the 'Auto' part of it.
>>
I love the auto A/C too. Oh yeah, it's always on (the A/C) and I still get that kind of mileage.
>>>>
>>Yeah, my fuel economy isn't the greatest either, but it's not (quite) as bad as what some folks have posted.
>>
I was looking to get a fun to drive sports car. Somewhat below average mpg would have been acceptable to me. I got decent mileage (22-24mpg) until I installed the intake and Helix pulley. Ever since then I now average 25-27mpg (occasionally 28!) and I have a total pocket rocket! I used to get gas at 1/4 tank left with 215 miles now I regularly can go 260-270 miles. Just think - my pullied MCS can blow away the 215HP 94 and 95 Mustang GTs I had that I only averaged 17mpg. Now I have great looks, incredible fun and unbelievable performance and get another 10mpg!!!
I LOVE my fuel economy! This is unreal, IMO.
>>I Love the auto AC. If you don't care for it, you should be able to adjust it manually and turn off the 'Auto' part of it.
>>
I love the auto A/C too. Oh yeah, it's always on (the A/C) and I still get that kind of mileage.
4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 511
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From: Charlotte, NC
i filled out the survey, and i don't think i listed any complaints. i have a hard time calling a few creaks a complaint. my seats squeaked (dealer relubed rails, squeak gone) and my passenger door had a rattle when the bass hit (dealer fixed). i just figure cars are going to creak, especially stiff cars. there are way more things to be concerned with when it comes to cars and rattles and creaks are very far down my list. i agree the jd powers survey is flawed, but maybe my survey will help tilt the scales a bit.
Craig
Craig
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4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 418
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From: Baltimore, MD
I'm glad to see all of these testimonials. This, of course, doesn't change the J.D. Powers report, but it's nice to have some feel-good after what is, IMHO, an unfairly dealt blow. BTW, 3.5K miles and 0 problems. (Touch wood! 
)
I believe that the "common" wisdom is that a car that has been out for less than a year or two is inherently a "high risk" purchase. So be it. In their IQS, the J.D. Powers folks are exploiting the narrow window of difference between the new issues of various manufacturers to make some kind of lion-of-the-consumer statement. All well and good for them.
Buying newly-issued cars is not for the risk-adverse. I believe there is no inherent virtue in being risk-adverse and, in fact, little advancement would be made by our species if we were all of the conservative mold. Stand on the leading edge and howl like mad at the wind!
(Steps off soapbox, dusting hands of the subject for now)
)I believe that the "common" wisdom is that a car that has been out for less than a year or two is inherently a "high risk" purchase. So be it. In their IQS, the J.D. Powers folks are exploiting the narrow window of difference between the new issues of various manufacturers to make some kind of lion-of-the-consumer statement. All well and good for them.
Buying newly-issued cars is not for the risk-adverse. I believe there is no inherent virtue in being risk-adverse and, in fact, little advancement would be made by our species if we were all of the conservative mold. Stand on the leading edge and howl like mad at the wind!
(Steps off soapbox, dusting hands of the subject for now)
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Lockport, NY, USA
Don't forget, it's not exactally a first run car.. the MINI One was out a year before the MC or MCS hit here... and yes, my rattles here and there, but so what?
But what Bear said is dead on, the surveys are intended for the average Soccer Mom type with 2.5 kids, not the more enthusist type who wants to scream around turns... So read them, because they might have some good info, but what you want in a car may very well not be what they are looking for..
Case In Point: Chevy Malibu
Rocketboy_X
But what Bear said is dead on, the surveys are intended for the average Soccer Mom type with 2.5 kids, not the more enthusist type who wants to scream around turns... So read them, because they might have some good info, but what you want in a car may very well not be what they are looking for..
Case In Point: Chevy Malibu
Rocketboy_X
I just read this thread and went outside to look in my driveway. know what I found there? an '03 VR/W MINI Cooper (pack 1, 2, & 3 w/leather) and you know what happened next? Oh yea, big smile
The minute I saw this car I totally fell in love with it, as I am sure that you have too. I minute after my first test drove I obsessed over it, as most of you did, until I FINALLY took delivery.
Of course I'm upset that someone didn't like the MINI. But after a bit more than 10.5K miles in 11 weeks, I've had no problems at all and no complaints. Sure the cup holders are small, but I've lost 10 lbs. not drinking all those soda. and I love the ride/handling (another big complaint).
Let those people b1tch about the cupholders, just keep 'em away from me!
The minute I saw this car I totally fell in love with it, as I am sure that you have too. I minute after my first test drove I obsessed over it, as most of you did, until I FINALLY took delivery.
Of course I'm upset that someone didn't like the MINI. But after a bit more than 10.5K miles in 11 weeks, I've had no problems at all and no complaints. Sure the cup holders are small, but I've lost 10 lbs. not drinking all those soda. and I love the ride/handling (another big complaint).
Let those people b1tch about the cupholders, just keep 'em away from me!
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,422
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From: Lockport, NY, USA
>>Let those people b1tch about the cupholders, just keep 'em away from me!
Heh.. besides the fact that i'm driving more than i'm drinking, how thirsty do you get when you're driving? And nless you are out in the middle of no-where, you're probally only minutes away from a mini-mart of some sort...
Rocketboy_X
(Suddenly missing having vending machines every 20 feet or so...)
Heh.. besides the fact that i'm driving more than i'm drinking, how thirsty do you get when you're driving? And nless you are out in the middle of no-where, you're probally only minutes away from a mini-mart of some sort...
Rocketboy_X
(Suddenly missing having vending machines every 20 feet or so...)
5th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 890
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From: Denver, CO
All I've ever wanted from a cup holder is the ability to hold a 20 oz. bottle of water or soda. The front holders can't do it. The rear can and for me at 5' 11", it isn't really out of reach. I'd rather have a usable one up front, but I can deal.
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