JCW Kit, worth it?
#26
Originally Posted by marksmith
The Eaton SC used by JCW has a different bearing assembly than the OE unit (05" will reflect this change?)
I was informed, by a very reputable source, that the superchargers WERE slightly different (more than just a pulley) for previous model years. I was also informed that the "new supercherger" (words from the "MINI 2005 Model Update", available at your local dealer) was the same supercharger that used to be a part of the JCW package, until '05. But yes, not the same (JCW) pulley.
Mabe this info can help to clear things up.:smile:
Mabe this info can help to clear things up.:smile:
#27
Originally Posted by marksmith
- The point of contention w/ the Works kit still seems to be the $$ vs. performance issue. It's harder to put a price/value on the dealership install, service and warranty of the Works ki offers. For many people it is a plus to have a "turn-key" tuning package.
#28
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Originally Posted by Its311pete
Don't over look my auction:smile:
Super Charger
Super Charger
#29
Meanboy: The best thing for you to do is find a Mini Club in your area and ask for either a ride or better yet ask to drive both a Works car and a"Modded" car. As you have read this topic can be sometimes a little touchy...
The Modded people feel they have found a way to get what the MCS should have been for a reasonable cost. Whereas, the JCW owners feel they have the best of both worlds (Performance plus the Warranty). I myself have a 2003MCS with 15% Pulley,CAI,Cooler Plugs, ECU upgrade, and Throttle Body.
I have had my S in the shop on a few occasions and although the Dealer knows about my Mods. he has never refused me service on any of my problems. In fact he has asked to drive it as well as asked to let a customer drive it to see the difference in the stock and Modded car.
So now the hard part what to do...
1.Buy the JCW and don't think twice. you have a security blanket with the Warranty OR
2. Buy a MCS and put the Aftermarket parts( also saving $$$$) and hope you have a dealer as Mod friendly as mine.. The choice is ultimatley yours.
One last thought...
If you mod your car properly feel confident that when you do finally see a JCW car pull up beside you thinking you only have a Stock MCS that you can and will get up and run away from him(so far I have 3 JCW to my credit). Trust me when you hit 135 and their Rev limiter hit's, it's fun to watch them as they just keep getting smaller and smaller.
The Modded people feel they have found a way to get what the MCS should have been for a reasonable cost. Whereas, the JCW owners feel they have the best of both worlds (Performance plus the Warranty). I myself have a 2003MCS with 15% Pulley,CAI,Cooler Plugs, ECU upgrade, and Throttle Body.
I have had my S in the shop on a few occasions and although the Dealer knows about my Mods. he has never refused me service on any of my problems. In fact he has asked to drive it as well as asked to let a customer drive it to see the difference in the stock and Modded car.
So now the hard part what to do...
1.Buy the JCW and don't think twice. you have a security blanket with the Warranty OR
2. Buy a MCS and put the Aftermarket parts( also saving $$$$) and hope you have a dealer as Mod friendly as mine.. The choice is ultimatley yours.
One last thought...
If you mod your car properly feel confident that when you do finally see a JCW car pull up beside you thinking you only have a Stock MCS that you can and will get up and run away from him(so far I have 3 JCW to my credit). Trust me when you hit 135 and their Rev limiter hit's, it's fun to watch them as they just keep getting smaller and smaller.
#31
Originally Posted by meanboy
I plan on crashing the pulley party on Sept 18 and see what it's all about. Then I will have a better feel of what I want to do..which might include doing some of the mods myself as long as I have the tools and a manual.
I'll be there both days. Several guys have the JCW and a lot have the other mods. Some 19% pullied cars will also be there. Odds are one of us will hook you up with a ride so you can get a good comparison.
My car is fairly heavily modded and I've driven a 2003 JCW equipped car. The difference are very subtle - the 15% reduction pulley, powerchip ECU, aftermarket exhaust and CAI seem to have a little more edge to them than the JCW kit.
My Dealership has also been good about servicing the car (nothing major yet - knock on wood). Like MarkP, several of the Techs have asked to drive it.
#32
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You are correct about the location. I was thinking of adding a pulley at the party but I think I want to be able to reverse any of the mods myself so I will ask questions and observe. I am paying attention to the MTH thread as well because of that.
I am shooting for Sept 18...I look forward to seeing some modded coopers.
I am shooting for Sept 18...I look forward to seeing some modded coopers.
Last edited by meanboy; 08-31-2004 at 10:52 PM. Reason: typo as usual
#33
#34
JCW Reduces Uncertainty
With JCW you also get a modded head with header, and this should add tremendously to the added midrange punch of the JCW, which also has a 17% pulley. So, JCW compared to aftermarket 15% pulley with CAI and exhaust and chip, then JCW should perform better. However, when the aftermarket pulley is 19%, as Greatgro's, then the difference is less.
Plus, with JCW it's not just the warranty, but after it expires, you can take it at any time to any dealer for any work and feel (relatively) confident of the results. So, it's security now and in the future. With aftermarket mods, you need to always be aware of a good shop to take it to, and whether you're on good terms with that particular shop or not. Or whether that shop is going to be around or not. And what if you move? There's a lot of uncertainty in the future. With JCW you reduce that uncertainty.
Plus, with JCW it's not just the warranty, but after it expires, you can take it at any time to any dealer for any work and feel (relatively) confident of the results. So, it's security now and in the future. With aftermarket mods, you need to always be aware of a good shop to take it to, and whether you're on good terms with that particular shop or not. Or whether that shop is going to be around or not. And what if you move? There's a lot of uncertainty in the future. With JCW you reduce that uncertainty.
#35
[QUOTE=jazmini]With JCW you also get a modded head with header, and this should add tremendously to the added midrange punch of the JCW, which also has a 17% pulley. So, JCW compared to aftermarket 15% pulley with CAI and exhaust and chip, then JCW should perform better. However, when the aftermarket pulley is 19%, as Greatgro's, then the difference is less.
QUOTE]
jazmini, I don't know where you got this info, but it is not correct. JCW does not give you a header. The JCW pulley is not a 17%. It is actually less than a 15% reduction (13.8xx if I remember correctly). The JCW package will not perform better than a 15%,CAI, exhaust, and "chip" most of the time. The 19% is a greater difference than the 15% or the JCW. It will put the smack down.
QUOTE]
jazmini, I don't know where you got this info, but it is not correct. JCW does not give you a header. The JCW pulley is not a 17%. It is actually less than a 15% reduction (13.8xx if I remember correctly). The JCW package will not perform better than a 15%,CAI, exhaust, and "chip" most of the time. The 19% is a greater difference than the 15% or the JCW. It will put the smack down.
#37
[QOUTE]jazmini, I don't know where you got this info, but it is not correct. JCW does not give you a header. [/QUOTE]
u sure?
JOHN COOPER WORKS CYLINDER HEAD
Two years of cylinder head development, using full 3D computer aided design (CAD) were initially needed to get the performance John Cooper Works demanded. Using this CAD data, the heads are fully CNC machined. This ensures the highest standards of accuracy, repeatability and performance. Statistical data taken from the production of many cylinder heads and blocks enabled the compression ratio to be optimised within the limits of performance, engine calibration and production tolerances.
u sure?
JOHN COOPER WORKS CYLINDER HEAD
Two years of cylinder head development, using full 3D computer aided design (CAD) were initially needed to get the performance John Cooper Works demanded. Using this CAD data, the heads are fully CNC machined. This ensures the highest standards of accuracy, repeatability and performance. Statistical data taken from the production of many cylinder heads and blocks enabled the compression ratio to be optimised within the limits of performance, engine calibration and production tolerances.
#38
Originally Posted by 20C4S
[QOUTE]jazmini, I don't know where you got this info, but it is not correct. JCW does not give you a header.
JOHN COOPER WORKS CYLINDER HEAD
Two years of cylinder head development, using full 3D computer aided design (CAD) were initially needed to get the performance John Cooper Works demanded. Using this CAD data, the heads are fully CNC machined. This ensures the highest standards of accuracy, repeatability and performance. Statistical data taken from the production of many cylinder heads and blocks enabled the compression ratio to be optimised within the limits of performance, engine calibration and production tolerances.[/QUOTE]
And....I'm missing your point. ??????
#40
Sorry Bisch, I thought wrong. My bad. :smile:
20C4S -- The JCW literature you are quoting is talking about the head. Whereas the header is the part of the exhaust going from the exhaust ports on the head to the catalytic converter. I'm obviously just wrong about all this, i.e., as JCW does not provide the header (I just checked the JCW website and verified this), and the pully size is probably as Bisch says. :smile:
I still think JCW is a good thing though, but yes it does cost $$. I've heard JCW has good low and midrange power. Part of that is probably related to having the head modded. Not having a modded header (i.e., larger diameter header pipes) with JCW could contribute to the improved low to midrange punch, as using a freer flowing head but with stock header size tubes should give more backpressure which gives more torque, versus having a freer flowing header that would provide more power at higher rpm's. Having your head modded aftermarket can be a real challenge (if not done right it will perform worse or you can ruin your head) and buying a modded head is expensive. So, the JCW total package is reasonable considering everything, IMO.
However, if you want the absolute most performance and speed, then as some have said here on this thread, you can do better for the money. However, using a smaller pulley, which gets this increased power, also gives you less reliability. So, it's a tradeoff -- more power but less reliability. It's a personal choice. Although, we've not seen reported here any problems with the smaller pulleys -- and the MCS engine appears to be pretty well bullet proof.
20C4S -- The JCW literature you are quoting is talking about the head. Whereas the header is the part of the exhaust going from the exhaust ports on the head to the catalytic converter. I'm obviously just wrong about all this, i.e., as JCW does not provide the header (I just checked the JCW website and verified this), and the pully size is probably as Bisch says. :smile:
I still think JCW is a good thing though, but yes it does cost $$. I've heard JCW has good low and midrange power. Part of that is probably related to having the head modded. Not having a modded header (i.e., larger diameter header pipes) with JCW could contribute to the improved low to midrange punch, as using a freer flowing head but with stock header size tubes should give more backpressure which gives more torque, versus having a freer flowing header that would provide more power at higher rpm's. Having your head modded aftermarket can be a real challenge (if not done right it will perform worse or you can ruin your head) and buying a modded head is expensive. So, the JCW total package is reasonable considering everything, IMO.
However, if you want the absolute most performance and speed, then as some have said here on this thread, you can do better for the money. However, using a smaller pulley, which gets this increased power, also gives you less reliability. So, it's a tradeoff -- more power but less reliability. It's a personal choice. Although, we've not seen reported here any problems with the smaller pulleys -- and the MCS engine appears to be pretty well bullet proof.
#41
Originally Posted by jazmini
However, using a smaller pulley, which gets this increased power, also gives you less reliability. So, it's a tradeoff -- more power but less reliability. It's a personal choice.
As for the ECU, I'd personally prefer a company like GIAC who spent part of 2 years perfecting their ECU than BMW, MINI or anyone related when they released numerous versions of their ECU that had all sorts of problems - stumbles, yo-yos, cold starting problems, etc...
#42
Originally Posted by jazmini
using a smaller pulley, which gets this increased power, also gives you less reliability. So, it's a tradeoff -- more power but less reliability. It's a personal choice. Although, we've not seen reported here any problems with the smaller pulleys -- and the MCS engine appears to be pretty well bullet proof.
If you are in favor of plunking down the cash for the JCW, then fine. To each their own. But, don't muddy the waters with the falsity that there are reliability issues. There are not.
#43
#44
Good Arguments
You all have some good arguments about the pros of aftermarket upgrades in lieu of JCW. It is not as straight forward as it would initially appear. The MCS engine has been called a bullet proof engine by some and no one has reported any real problems with any upgrades to it. So, reliability is not really a factor. Even 19% reduction pulleys have not had any problems. No one has said the JCW is a bad thing, and it does its job. Some have only questioned its cost.
One thing is that if you do aftermarket mods and then decide to sell your car, many have taken off their mods and then sold their car. With JCW you don't have to do that. This is my last argument for the JCW. However, thinking about this further even that may not be a big deal if you keep your car awhile: Here's why: Cars with the best resale value will generally bring 50% of their cost when you sell in 5 years. If you have JCW and sell in the first couple of years, then yes it's a big deal and you'll get back a high percentage of the cost of JCW. However, after so many years, this will not be as much money and not as much of a factor.
I've also read somwhere (I think it was someone on Gabe's Motoring File.com website today) that a dealer will not refuse to work on a car, and the reason is because they don't want to lose that money, and the only issue is whether that work is covered under warranty.
One thing to consider is that historically and traditionally, the MINI was born (made) to be modded (particulary the original Mini). The new MINI is no exception, as there are many vendors helping people meet their needs. And, it is a lot of fun to mod it and also participate in discussions here at North American Motoring.com.
So, JCW or aftermarket: It looks like a draw to me. Depends on personal choice.
One thing is that if you do aftermarket mods and then decide to sell your car, many have taken off their mods and then sold their car. With JCW you don't have to do that. This is my last argument for the JCW. However, thinking about this further even that may not be a big deal if you keep your car awhile: Here's why: Cars with the best resale value will generally bring 50% of their cost when you sell in 5 years. If you have JCW and sell in the first couple of years, then yes it's a big deal and you'll get back a high percentage of the cost of JCW. However, after so many years, this will not be as much money and not as much of a factor.
I've also read somwhere (I think it was someone on Gabe's Motoring File.com website today) that a dealer will not refuse to work on a car, and the reason is because they don't want to lose that money, and the only issue is whether that work is covered under warranty.
One thing to consider is that historically and traditionally, the MINI was born (made) to be modded (particulary the original Mini). The new MINI is no exception, as there are many vendors helping people meet their needs. And, it is a lot of fun to mod it and also participate in discussions here at North American Motoring.com.
So, JCW or aftermarket: It looks like a draw to me. Depends on personal choice.
#45
Hi, kids. This is my first post on the NAM forums. I'm enjoying the info and discussion. I've got an early '03 MCS with 26k+ miles on it. I recently did the 15% pulley, CAI Alta, Milltek exhaust, and Denso IK22 plugs. That made a really nice improvement. I'll probably go for the Powerchip ECU upgrade at some point, but right now, just enjoying and getting used to the current jump. As seems to be the consensus, the JCW set-up or the aftermarket, really give similar results, unless you really get wild with the aftermarket options. As has been said, the warrantee concerns should be not a problem (possibly excluding a s/c catastrophe), so it comes down to personal comfort zones. I was a German car mechanic for twenty years, and enjoy not doing that professionally anymore, but also enjoy playing with the MCS as a hobby now. As my father-in-law says, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
I've seen threads talking about loosing belts with the 19% pulley, and some other problems that sound to be results of installation oops's, but the car seems to be fairly friendly to work on and reasonably forgiving. Not being a strong fan of BMW and dealerships in general, it's comforting to know that I only have to look to myself for how the job was done. I did some serious soul searching before going for the MCS because it is a BMW product, but so far, past the halfway mark on the primary warrantee stuff, things have gone pretty well. Figure out what you want and how you want to do it, do it, and
ENJOY! It's fun, it's a toy (in my case it works as my 'work truck'), and heaven knows--WE NEED TOYS!
I've seen threads talking about loosing belts with the 19% pulley, and some other problems that sound to be results of installation oops's, but the car seems to be fairly friendly to work on and reasonably forgiving. Not being a strong fan of BMW and dealerships in general, it's comforting to know that I only have to look to myself for how the job was done. I did some serious soul searching before going for the MCS because it is a BMW product, but so far, past the halfway mark on the primary warrantee stuff, things have gone pretty well. Figure out what you want and how you want to do it, do it, and
ENJOY! It's fun, it's a toy (in my case it works as my 'work truck'), and heaven knows--WE NEED TOYS!
#46
#47
#48
#50
if you are freaked about the warranty, the obvious alternative is dinan.
recently, mini mania offered their own warranty on their own products:
this means, any "mini mania" labeled product (or it may be anything they sell on their site) is warrantied. I seem to remember that other parts that are oem that get screwed up is not warrantied, but i'm not for sure.
check it out at www.minimania.com
personally, i'm just going to wait til my warranty runs out to do more serious mods and then i'll be free to create a beast. if i am still so inclined.
recently, mini mania offered their own warranty on their own products:
this means, any "mini mania" labeled product (or it may be anything they sell on their site) is warrantied. I seem to remember that other parts that are oem that get screwed up is not warrantied, but i'm not for sure.
check it out at www.minimania.com
personally, i'm just going to wait til my warranty runs out to do more serious mods and then i'll be free to create a beast. if i am still so inclined.