I know that Roger, that's why I added -ish after exact in the first place and indication. They are close but not the same. I am sure you will add your scientific explanation as always...

 

The combustion process is variable and complex, before I get into explaining the many variables, that control the thermodynamics within the combustion cylinder, I need to find the time, but for now you're, ish has a somewhat wide variable of up to 350ºC

 

Hi,

Well actually no, I don't agree with you on this point with regards to my experience. Hill climbs are actually pretty mild on the car in my experience.

I am well aware of how the ECU works with water cooling. I can drive around all day and the temp sticks to 105. I can put the boot in and it drops to 85-87c and stick there all day driving on the road.

Put in an intercooler and it doesn't change.

Doing a hill climb over 800-1600m, prolonged full throttle at 23psi it sticks to around 87-92C. This doesn't change with an intercooler.

Circuit racing at 35-40C ambient the water temp rises to around 115c with the intercooler but will stay at around 100-102 without.

Circuit racing at the the absolute limit is way harder on the car than a hill climb or any road driving could ever be. Circuit racing is WOT for a large percentage of the time. Hill climbs and road driving have nowhere near the amount of WOT. Also circuit racing has more disturbed airflow through the front of the car.

There is definitely an effect on water temps from the the intercooler. As I said in my original post it is only under extreme conditions. You may not have experienced this but it can happen Very few people will experience this problem, and for most people it is theoretical, but it can happen.

BTW I still have the AC core. I am sure if I removed that it would help

Robbo

Edit : here is some footage of me doing an event similar to a hill climb (tarmac rally). 35km in length and around 20mins and the water temps never get over 90C. Even though I am going hard in the conditions there is no prolonged WOT like on circuit events. Unfortunately I do not have good in car footage from a circuit to compare.

 

So, cylinder combustion temps can reach 1300oC? The internals of the engine are capable of coping with these temps?
Cause EGTs can vary from 900oC to 950oC when exiting the engine through the exhaust manifold (pre turbo).

By the way, what is your opinion about the OP question?

 

Robbo, you surely are entitled to your opinion and at this point I must say that the only thing I agree with you at, is that we disagree...
Your experience or mine don't necessarily mean that You or me are absolutely right or absolutely wrong. What I am trying to say is that the operation of the engine and WTs will vary from the track or the hill slope and the load put into it. Typically, more load means more heat. Disturbed airflow is a good point you mentioned there. This will actually have an effect on its own.

Another point of view is that the tune itself can be responsible for various temps induced. Too aggressive tunes contribute to higher temps. Even with 27psi of boost I never had a problem with my WTs both on the mountains and at the track. May I also add that coolant fluids are vital in competition as well.

Just trying to keep on track with the OP, I wouldn't run the original IC not even when using stock tune, cause it would mean that, in extreme conditions, I would loose serious power...not to mention the engine would flirt non stop with preignition as a consequent result of silly high IATs

 

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Just a couple of points to clarify. I have had high WT on circuit with an intercooler with both stock and higher boost tunes.

Also, mini challenge cars run the stock IC, and do some pretty amazingly fast lap times.

To the OP, YES put on a bigger IC, it will make a significant difference. You will not run into the high water temps I have discussed.

Robbo

 

I love it when Czar used the word "thermal dynamics" it's cool and very complicated when the ECU using the various sensors on the car will appropriate optimal timing advance along with enriched fuel delivery to help keep a car above required fuel needed for the level of torque and HP being used only to expell excessive heat out the exhaust, without this extra fuel enrichment under high loads and heat, IE- EGT readings the effective timing producing the good HP and Tq would cause detonation and ultimately ruin the engine in short order if not tuned properly, it's here where extra fuel is used for thermal dynamic control for maintaining optimum timing advance while under boost. This merely touches on the topic, since I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night I could be guessing.

About advertised HP on parts being sold to consumers, there is a tendency without due diligence to add the advertised gains of many products, CAI + FMIC + Down Pipe + Tune + Alta Stickers = outrageous tire smoking power, and I'm guessing but it's safe to assume many feel mislead when something is advertised and marketed with Dyno graphs proving their claims that you will also feel those gains, seriously if they gave the DA ( atmospheric info) along with these numbers as well as if they iced the intake and what corrections they are using for their Dyno as well as what Dyno is used. The same car on a Crappy Dyno can vary 10-15 HP within a couple runs with some cool down time especially if done at dusk while the sun is setting, cooler air makes a huge difference and a matter of an hr from initial testing of say a FMIC and an after install while same day, yet in cooler air would net gains with Dyno proof, numbers mean crap, Show me the ET slip and MPH gains that can't be fudged by correction at the track with same DA. 3 runs before and after will show improvement or shiny part... Being skeptical cause a part has Dyno number is good, not all dyno's load the same as the load achieved while driving.

 

good to see someone else who uses their head @ boost me.
i forgot about the challenge cars to so thanks robbo. if they can race around the gold coast indy car track at 30+oc on the stock FMIC, then it mustn't be that bad.

 

Turtle not everyone has the same expectation from the parts we expect to be upgrades, yet I feel the Howerton h2o/meth could be a great alternative to an upgraded FMIC, yet it has on going costs yet with a much better upside to heat and maximum timing advance all the time. Methanol has a much higher octane rating and improves detonation retention to a much safer level. I may even change my mind thinking the stock FMIC is required to upgrade.

 

Wow, I never thought I would see such a "heated" debate on one of my threads...no pun intended. For the record, I did purchase a new Helix FMIC and will be installing it in the next week or two. I have a race to prep for in my other German car or else it would've been done by now. Thanks for all of the valuable feedback.

 

I installed my Helix Thursday. I'm not seeing much better than 10* above ambient, but we are contending with 100* Texas heat. I'm also not seeing the 30+ degree rise I was seeing pre Fmic on longer pulls or at lights so in that aspect it is working.

A side effect is I'm seeing two psi less max boost (22, down from 24). I've verified no leaks. Helix tells me this because there is less restriction so the turbo is more effient and b/c the boost sensor is pre fmic. Doesn't make since to me, but ok. No pre or post dynos to know if I lost pwr too. Just seems if a better flowing fmic caused a reduction in max boost it'd be better documented. Only found one thread from 09 that just kinda died.

 

Keep in mind that boost (pressure) is a flow restriction measurement. Also keep in mind that as air temperature decreased so does air pressure.

 

Not tracking on this one, care to elaborate? If air is cooler, it is more dense so in a container like the IC, it should be rising a bit. At least that is my thought...

 

Exact opposite. You said it yourself "more dense" which means to compress or shrink in size. Air molecules move closer together Think of a balloon that is blown up in a cold house then taken outside in 100* heat. Just this weekend I seen one expand until it popped. PV=nRT so P=nRTemp/Volume They have a direct relationship. As temperature goes up so does pressure in a contained space.

 

Not debating the explanation. Just surprised it's not documented more on the forum. My car neither feels faster, nor slower...exactly what I expected.

 

Honestly I am a little surprised as well. Typically car have a boost target pressure and will adjust wastegate duty cycle to make a change. There should be a noticeable difference in the performance of the car too.

The best thing to do is check for a leak with a boost leak checker. Basically it’s a cap with an air chuck nozzle on it. You attach it to your turbo inlet with a rubber hose and connect your air compressor to it. Be sure to set the compressor pressure to about 10psi first. Then listen for leaks. Fix what you find.

One other option is to reset the ECU by leaving the battery ground off for a few minutes and stepping on the brake. The brake lights will drain any charge left in the car's systems.

 

This is what I thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helix Wildebeest

The best thing to do is check for a leak with a boost leak checker. Basically it’s a cap with an air chuck nozzle on it. You attach it to your turbo inlet with a rubber hose and connect your air compressor to it. Be sure to set the compressor pressure to about 10psi first. Then listen for leaks. Fix what you find.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helix Wildebeest

One other option is to reset the ECU by leaving the battery ground off for a few minutes and stepping on the brake. The brake lights will drain any charge left in the car's systems.

The ECU was reset via Accessport.

I wonder if Autozone rents the tester? Worth a check. To clarify, by turbo inlet, I'm removing the pipe leading from the air filter box to the turbo and placing the cap on the turbo there?

thnx

 

The boost leak tester is something you can make up from materials purchased at the Home Depot or Lowes.

 

Man do I need to dust off my chem book. It has been a while. Thanks for the explanation, it makes sense.