Fun at the track
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
Thursday we were out at Laguna with Hooked on Driving. This time we took Shawn again, I was going to run in the C advanced group and my wife was running in the B intermediate group. This was a test of whether these were suitable groups for us. After our last outing at Laguna in Shawn, with the new tires, I'd gotten a new record lap for me of 1:53.8. I wasn't planning on going for another track record, I was thinking a pace of 1:56-1:58 would be good.
Also at the last day I was not happy with the brakes, they didn't feel right, some fade and then they felt both mushy and overly hard at the same time and they lacked bite. We also went completely through one set of front pads. Not wanting to go back to MINI with shot pads less than a thousand miles after they'd installed new ones, I changed the pads myself. I was also wondering if I need to use a different compound of pad, maybe EBC Yellowstuff. On our previous tack days the OEM pads had worked quite well, and tended to last 3 track days and however many thousand miles you drive between them. I was planning on trying to be a little easier on the brakes this time.
After having such good weather for the Feb/Mar track days, the weather in California has taken a distinctly damp turn. The forecast was changing and settled down on wet, there was a downpour you could hear at 6am that morning, when we got to the track it was still damp.
The advanced group was first on track, it was still very greasy. The pregrid was single file in the cold pit lane, none of the arranging yourself by fast or slow like they have at previous track days. If I'd had the choice I would have gone for the slow end of the grid, as it was I found myself at the head of the grid. Three Corvettes lined up behind me.
After the first lap (under yellow, no passing), I quickly pointed the Corvettes by. I didn't see much other traffic for the session, a Porsche caught up, but didn't get close enough that I felt I needed to point him by until later in the session. There was another Porsche who made it much more obvious he wanted to pass. I commented on that in the download session later, if they wanted to pass, they should make it obvious.
The track was very greasy, I could feel things slipping all over the place. Looking at the data, where previously, I'd maxed at about +/-1.04g cornering, I only managed +0.63g - -0.79g on my best lap. As the session wore on I started to get more comfortable, and faster, so on one lap I had a very interesting "moment" at turn 10. The car wanted to spin, but I caught it. Unfortunately, I'd forgotten to mount the video camera, so I can't review exactly what happened. I also caught up with and passed one of the Corvettes. The brakes were also not feeling too good, with quite a lot of fade. In the end I ended up with a best lap of 2:10. I was staying off the berms, they tend to be very slippy in the wet. That made the track somewhat narrower than I was used to, the Corkscrew especially felt very constrained. I got an appreciation of race drivers who drive well in the rain. Its very unpredictable.
My wife 's group was on track next, so we hot swapped, pausing only long enough to mount the video camera. She managed a best lap of 2:15 (compared to a best dry lap of 2:04), only 5 sec behind me. While she was on track our group had its only download meeting of the day. One of the advantages of the advanced group, less meetings. Another advantage is the relaxed passing rules. Passing is still by point by only, but its anywhere straight and on either side. Point bys on the right make much more sense coming out of 3, 4 or 10.
By the time my second session the track was dry, though I was still keeping off the berms, they tend to stay wet and slippy. I was less eager to get to the grid this time, so I wasn't at the head of the group. I had a good session and ended up with several laps around 2:00, quite reasonable for the first (dry) session, particularly as the brakes were still not feeling good.
I again hot swapped with my wife , but as she got on track it started raining again. The weather map (on my iPhone) showed a lone cloud deciding dump just on us. With the rain and catching a lot of traffic, my wife only managed a 2:20 for the session.
By the time my next session came around the cloud was still dumping on us, it was still very wet. Though it was now wet enough that it didn't feel greasy anymore, it felt like I had grip, albeit reduced. The data shows I had about as much grip as I had in the first session. I started off running with the windows up, no one objected, but I couldn't point by like that, so I opened them again. No one came up with a passing protocol for the windows being closed. I saw very little traffic during the session. Towards the middle of the session I was chasing one of the Corvettes around the track. He caught up with a Mustang, which was piloted by a girl from work. When the Mustang pointed the Corvette by, the Mustang also pointed me by. I then started to try to pull away from the Mustang.
This is where things got a little unusual. Usually when dealing with a high powered car like a Mustang, you'll catch up to them in the corners, then they can pull away from you on the straight. If you want to pass a car like that, you need their cooperation to let you by on a straight. This time as the brake weren't feeling right, I was being gentle with them, this would allow the Mustang to catch up with me entering the corner. On the exit from the corner, I'd manage to out drag race the Mustang and pull away from her on the straight. For a rear wheel drive car (such as a Mustang) you have to be careful not to put the power down too early or you might find yourself spinning out, if you do get in trouble letting off the power only makes things worse. This is especially true when its wet, and she seemed to be taking the corner exits very carefully. A front wheel drive car (such as a MINI) on the other hand you can put the power down early, and if you overdo it you just get some understeer which is correctable by letting up on the power. This is one of the advantages of a front wheel drive car, and the basis of the driving technique I'd been taught. So I was able to get much more power down on corner exit than the Mustang and was pulling away from her.
For a couple of laps I stayed in front of the Mustang, but I didn't manage to pull away. For both of those laps I had "moments" at turn 6. The car again wanted to spin, but I managed to catch it, that slowed me up substantially. I couldn't shake the Mustang, and I pointed her by. The best lap for the session was another 2:10, it was one of the ones in front of the Mustang, even with the bobble at turn 6. Without the bobble it would probably have been faster than the first session.
I again hot swapped with my wife , though she was a little slow getting on track, so by the time she did the lead cars were already completing their outlaps. She found clear, but wet, track for most of the session. She again managed a 2:20.
After lunch it was dry and sunny for my fourth session. Though I was still avoiding the berms, and the brakes were still not feeling that good. I managed to forget to turn on the video camera, so at the end of my outlap I pulled into the pits to turn the camera on. I somehow managed to not turn the camera on, so I got no video for the session. I had the lap timer running, so I know I managed 3 laps of around 1:58, including a 1:57.5, my best of the day, meeting my target. I also managed to pass a Porsche Cayman, I was surprised. Unfortunately, I don't have that on video.
My wife went out straight after and caught a lot of traffic. Half way through she caught up with a big knot of traffic, so she pulled into the pits to create a gap. So she didn't get many hot laps and managed a 2:10.
For the last session I got mostly clear track, and I experimented with the alternate line at the hairpin. I tried out the double apex line, I've never tried that with Shawn before. The first attempt wasn't that good, with the brake still not feeling good, I went off the end of the hairpin onto the run off area. (Luckily the runoff was recently paved, its no longer a gravel trap). I haven't anaysed the video to see what that did for me, but I managed a couple of laps under 1:59 using it. Towards the end of the session one of the Corvettes passed me, but then seemed to slow up a bit, so I started catching him up. At the end I had a graphic demonstration of the difference between the two lines at the hairpin. The double apex has a much faster entry, so I found myself with iffy brakes aiming directly at the Corvette turning in front of me. You can see that on the video at the end.
My wife had a pretty good last session, though she doesn't think she was at her best. She managed a 2:07.8 for her best lap of the day. I went to watch her during the session and saw that she was in front of a Honda S2000 one lap, and was still about the same distance in front the next lap. She said that was one of the few cars she passed all day. You can see that on the video.
At the end of it all, neither of us though we were out of place in our respective groups, so we'll be trying B and C again, at least when we're in Shawn. We'd be one of the slowest cars in the group, but not disastrously so. We're both not sure we'd do so well in Tristan. We've booked up a few track days for later in the year, there's October 3rd at Laguna, October 18th at Thunderhill (an HOD extra day, less cars, fewer run groups), and November 23rd at Infineon (the day after Thanksgiving). We're signed up for B & C at Thunderhill and Infineon. At Laguna, we're both signed up for B and I'm intending to find an alternate ride like a spec Miata or similar for variety. Though that may change, see below.
Also we've decided to replace Shawn with a JCW. Basically to have something a little faster at the track. We're just discussing what colour to go for, I favour pepper white with a red roof, or spice orange with a black roof. My wife isn't convinced by the red roof, and would go for white/black or orange/black. Anyone want to buy a Cooper-S?
I have video, but not of my best lap, the best one of the last session is at: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaApr12BGoodi.mov
my wife 's best lap: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaApr12CBesti.mov
And my best lap of the very wet third session, complete with bobble at turn 6: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaApr12BWeti.mov
The pro photographer was covering the event as usual, so I have pictures:
http://btwyx.com/LagunaApr12/
And here I am in the wet, trying to stay ahead of the Mustang:
Also at the last day I was not happy with the brakes, they didn't feel right, some fade and then they felt both mushy and overly hard at the same time and they lacked bite. We also went completely through one set of front pads. Not wanting to go back to MINI with shot pads less than a thousand miles after they'd installed new ones, I changed the pads myself. I was also wondering if I need to use a different compound of pad, maybe EBC Yellowstuff. On our previous tack days the OEM pads had worked quite well, and tended to last 3 track days and however many thousand miles you drive between them. I was planning on trying to be a little easier on the brakes this time.
After having such good weather for the Feb/Mar track days, the weather in California has taken a distinctly damp turn. The forecast was changing and settled down on wet, there was a downpour you could hear at 6am that morning, when we got to the track it was still damp.
The advanced group was first on track, it was still very greasy. The pregrid was single file in the cold pit lane, none of the arranging yourself by fast or slow like they have at previous track days. If I'd had the choice I would have gone for the slow end of the grid, as it was I found myself at the head of the grid. Three Corvettes lined up behind me.
After the first lap (under yellow, no passing), I quickly pointed the Corvettes by. I didn't see much other traffic for the session, a Porsche caught up, but didn't get close enough that I felt I needed to point him by until later in the session. There was another Porsche who made it much more obvious he wanted to pass. I commented on that in the download session later, if they wanted to pass, they should make it obvious.
The track was very greasy, I could feel things slipping all over the place. Looking at the data, where previously, I'd maxed at about +/-1.04g cornering, I only managed +0.63g - -0.79g on my best lap. As the session wore on I started to get more comfortable, and faster, so on one lap I had a very interesting "moment" at turn 10. The car wanted to spin, but I caught it. Unfortunately, I'd forgotten to mount the video camera, so I can't review exactly what happened. I also caught up with and passed one of the Corvettes. The brakes were also not feeling too good, with quite a lot of fade. In the end I ended up with a best lap of 2:10. I was staying off the berms, they tend to be very slippy in the wet. That made the track somewhat narrower than I was used to, the Corkscrew especially felt very constrained. I got an appreciation of race drivers who drive well in the rain. Its very unpredictable.
My wife 's group was on track next, so we hot swapped, pausing only long enough to mount the video camera. She managed a best lap of 2:15 (compared to a best dry lap of 2:04), only 5 sec behind me. While she was on track our group had its only download meeting of the day. One of the advantages of the advanced group, less meetings. Another advantage is the relaxed passing rules. Passing is still by point by only, but its anywhere straight and on either side. Point bys on the right make much more sense coming out of 3, 4 or 10.
By the time my second session the track was dry, though I was still keeping off the berms, they tend to stay wet and slippy. I was less eager to get to the grid this time, so I wasn't at the head of the group. I had a good session and ended up with several laps around 2:00, quite reasonable for the first (dry) session, particularly as the brakes were still not feeling good.
I again hot swapped with my wife , but as she got on track it started raining again. The weather map (on my iPhone) showed a lone cloud deciding dump just on us. With the rain and catching a lot of traffic, my wife only managed a 2:20 for the session.
By the time my next session came around the cloud was still dumping on us, it was still very wet. Though it was now wet enough that it didn't feel greasy anymore, it felt like I had grip, albeit reduced. The data shows I had about as much grip as I had in the first session. I started off running with the windows up, no one objected, but I couldn't point by like that, so I opened them again. No one came up with a passing protocol for the windows being closed. I saw very little traffic during the session. Towards the middle of the session I was chasing one of the Corvettes around the track. He caught up with a Mustang, which was piloted by a girl from work. When the Mustang pointed the Corvette by, the Mustang also pointed me by. I then started to try to pull away from the Mustang.
This is where things got a little unusual. Usually when dealing with a high powered car like a Mustang, you'll catch up to them in the corners, then they can pull away from you on the straight. If you want to pass a car like that, you need their cooperation to let you by on a straight. This time as the brake weren't feeling right, I was being gentle with them, this would allow the Mustang to catch up with me entering the corner. On the exit from the corner, I'd manage to out drag race the Mustang and pull away from her on the straight. For a rear wheel drive car (such as a Mustang) you have to be careful not to put the power down too early or you might find yourself spinning out, if you do get in trouble letting off the power only makes things worse. This is especially true when its wet, and she seemed to be taking the corner exits very carefully. A front wheel drive car (such as a MINI) on the other hand you can put the power down early, and if you overdo it you just get some understeer which is correctable by letting up on the power. This is one of the advantages of a front wheel drive car, and the basis of the driving technique I'd been taught. So I was able to get much more power down on corner exit than the Mustang and was pulling away from her.
For a couple of laps I stayed in front of the Mustang, but I didn't manage to pull away. For both of those laps I had "moments" at turn 6. The car again wanted to spin, but I managed to catch it, that slowed me up substantially. I couldn't shake the Mustang, and I pointed her by. The best lap for the session was another 2:10, it was one of the ones in front of the Mustang, even with the bobble at turn 6. Without the bobble it would probably have been faster than the first session.
I again hot swapped with my wife , though she was a little slow getting on track, so by the time she did the lead cars were already completing their outlaps. She found clear, but wet, track for most of the session. She again managed a 2:20.
After lunch it was dry and sunny for my fourth session. Though I was still avoiding the berms, and the brakes were still not feeling that good. I managed to forget to turn on the video camera, so at the end of my outlap I pulled into the pits to turn the camera on. I somehow managed to not turn the camera on, so I got no video for the session. I had the lap timer running, so I know I managed 3 laps of around 1:58, including a 1:57.5, my best of the day, meeting my target. I also managed to pass a Porsche Cayman, I was surprised. Unfortunately, I don't have that on video.
My wife went out straight after and caught a lot of traffic. Half way through she caught up with a big knot of traffic, so she pulled into the pits to create a gap. So she didn't get many hot laps and managed a 2:10.
For the last session I got mostly clear track, and I experimented with the alternate line at the hairpin. I tried out the double apex line, I've never tried that with Shawn before. The first attempt wasn't that good, with the brake still not feeling good, I went off the end of the hairpin onto the run off area. (Luckily the runoff was recently paved, its no longer a gravel trap). I haven't anaysed the video to see what that did for me, but I managed a couple of laps under 1:59 using it. Towards the end of the session one of the Corvettes passed me, but then seemed to slow up a bit, so I started catching him up. At the end I had a graphic demonstration of the difference between the two lines at the hairpin. The double apex has a much faster entry, so I found myself with iffy brakes aiming directly at the Corvette turning in front of me. You can see that on the video at the end.
My wife had a pretty good last session, though she doesn't think she was at her best. She managed a 2:07.8 for her best lap of the day. I went to watch her during the session and saw that she was in front of a Honda S2000 one lap, and was still about the same distance in front the next lap. She said that was one of the few cars she passed all day. You can see that on the video.
At the end of it all, neither of us though we were out of place in our respective groups, so we'll be trying B and C again, at least when we're in Shawn. We'd be one of the slowest cars in the group, but not disastrously so. We're both not sure we'd do so well in Tristan. We've booked up a few track days for later in the year, there's October 3rd at Laguna, October 18th at Thunderhill (an HOD extra day, less cars, fewer run groups), and November 23rd at Infineon (the day after Thanksgiving). We're signed up for B & C at Thunderhill and Infineon. At Laguna, we're both signed up for B and I'm intending to find an alternate ride like a spec Miata or similar for variety. Though that may change, see below.
Also we've decided to replace Shawn with a JCW. Basically to have something a little faster at the track. We're just discussing what colour to go for, I favour pepper white with a red roof, or spice orange with a black roof. My wife isn't convinced by the red roof, and would go for white/black or orange/black. Anyone want to buy a Cooper-S?
I have video, but not of my best lap, the best one of the last session is at: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaApr12BGoodi.mov
my wife 's best lap: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaApr12CBesti.mov
And my best lap of the very wet third session, complete with bobble at turn 6: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaApr12BWeti.mov
The pro photographer was covering the event as usual, so I have pictures:
http://btwyx.com/LagunaApr12/
And here I am in the wet, trying to stay ahead of the Mustang:
Stop talking about your cars by name, please? I know I should be polite, but it sounds a bit, well...
I don't think the Ferrari and Porsche drivers call their cars Gianni or Lupo or Ferry. Quit it already. You are doing no favors for us MINI drivers who are attempting to exact respect from said Ferrari and Porsche idiots who only acquired said rides due to age and cash in said age.
I enjoy toasting them with my R53 that has no name except for: damn I cracked my rotors again and I need some new Hoosiers.
If you need to name your car, keep it to yourself, otherwise you sound like a prat. Look it up (or click the link below). Cheers!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=prat
I don't think the Ferrari and Porsche drivers call their cars Gianni or Lupo or Ferry. Quit it already. You are doing no favors for us MINI drivers who are attempting to exact respect from said Ferrari and Porsche idiots who only acquired said rides due to age and cash in said age.
I enjoy toasting them with my R53 that has no name except for: damn I cracked my rotors again and I need some new Hoosiers.
If you need to name your car, keep it to yourself, otherwise you sound like a prat. Look it up (or click the link below). Cheers!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=prat
Last edited by dinanminicooper; Apr 15, 2012 at 09:23 PM.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
It is a Laguna Seca edition by the way. As with all things, it depends on the driver, last November I did in fact pass that very same Mustang. In the meantime the driver has done about 15 track days, and she's got a lot faster. I've now no hope of keeping ahead of her in the dry. In the wet, all bets are off and I had a good chance of keeping ahead of her. I had just passed her afterall.
You also might want to look up "plonk", as in welcome to my killfile.
You also might want to look up "plonk", as in welcome to my killfile.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,166
Likes: 401
Stop talking about your cars by name, please? I know I should be polite, but it sounds a bit, well...
I don't think the Ferrari and Porsche drivers call their cars Gianni or Lupo or Ferry. Quit it already. You are doing no favors for us MINI drivers who are attempting to exact respect from said Ferrari and Porsche idiots who only acquired said rides due to age and cash in said age.
I enjoy toasting them with my R53 that has no name except for: damn I cracked my rotors again and I need some new Hoosiers.
If you need to name your car, keep it to yourself, otherwise you sound like a prat. Look it up (or click the link below). Cheers!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=prat
I don't think the Ferrari and Porsche drivers call their cars Gianni or Lupo or Ferry. Quit it already. You are doing no favors for us MINI drivers who are attempting to exact respect from said Ferrari and Porsche idiots who only acquired said rides due to age and cash in said age.
I enjoy toasting them with my R53 that has no name except for: damn I cracked my rotors again and I need some new Hoosiers.
If you need to name your car, keep it to yourself, otherwise you sound like a prat. Look it up (or click the link below). Cheers!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=prat
Cheers,
Charlie
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,064
Likes: 15
From: Silly-con Valley
Interestingly, I can't think of any named "Ferry" off hand.
The Porsche factory named a number of their cars, though. "Ferdinand" was a 356 used as a test mule; "Mickey Mouse" was a one-off lightweight 550 Spyder; "Grossmutter" (Grandmother) was an RSK that was refitted with larger engines and was competitive for longer than any other racer at that point, the "Pink Pig" and the "Hippie Car" were both 917 racers, and "Moby ****" was one of the early 935 turbo race cars.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
Last Wednesday we were at Laguna Seca again, but I've been a bit distracted by our foray into autocross to write it up. So we got the new JCW MINI to be a bit faster at the track, so I could be more convincing in the advanced (C) rungroup. It didn't quite work out that way, we didn't go quite as fast as we had in March. Just goes to show the driver is more important than the vehicle, we were a little out of practice. In March I'd managed a 1:53.8 lap, I reckoned the added power of the JCW was worth about 3 seconds a lap, so I was hoping for around 1:51.
Apart from the added power, I'd been contemplating the diffences between Shawn and the new JCW. There's the brakes, wheels, Aero kit and DTC. The brakes on a Cooper-S are quite adequate, the JCW brakes are probably overkill. What I was most interested in was the brake cooling ducts in the front bumper as is now standard on Ss (and JCWs). Over heating had been the main problem I'd had previously, so maybe the brakes would keep cooler. The other problem was accelerated wear, the cooling might help there and supposedly the JCW have different sorts of pad. I'd got a set of EDC yellowstuff in reserve and took the tools necessary to change pads is needed.
The JCW of course comes with 17" wheels, vs the 16" we have been running. I'd got some RPF-1 track wheels with the same Bridgestone RE-11s we had been running. In theory the lower profile gives you a handling advantage, but the extra 3lbs per corner is a negative. The aero kit is mainly for looks, but I was wondering if it actually had any practical effect, either lowering drag or increasing downforce. I wasn't expecting either to make a noticeable difference.
And then there's DTC with its EDLC electronic limited slip diff. The effectiveness of DTC or EDLC has been discussed, but I'm not sure I've heard any authoritative conclusions. I was also wondering if the E-Diff would add to the brake heating problems.
It was an unusually sunny day, and I was first on track at 9am. Unfortunately I worked out I'd forgotten to load the track into the lap timer on the phone. I'd just upgraded my phone, but was still using the old one for this as it fit in the dock I have and the new one doesn't. So the old phone doesn't have cell service, and so no way to load the track. So for the day I didn't have the lap timer doing its thing and I didn't know how fast I was going.
I lined up on the slow end of the grid and also unfortunately on the outlap, I heard something rattling around. Not a good thing, so I pulled into the pits to find it, I couldn't find it, but eventually worked out it was in the glovebox and probably safe, I'd left a tire pressure gauge in the there. I went out, and had clear track and ran a 1:58, then the yellow and white flags flew. A Corvette was in the gravel trap at turn 2 smoking, while the recovery truck was trying to pull it out. It seems something let go and it was leaking. After a couple of yellow laps it was dragged out of the gravel, and then they put out the chequered flag and the session was over.
They ended the session early to clean up the track, so my wife wasn't waiting at the grid as I was expecting. We were hot swapping again, her sessions were directly after mine. I found her, made a quick check of the wheel bolts and got my wife to the grid. Only for her to just sit there for 20 minutes while they cleared things up. I was being paranoid about the wheel bolt torque as the last time I'd run new wheels the bolts detorqued and the wheels nearly fell off after 2 sessions. My wife's session was shortened by the delay and she didn't get any clear laps. For a long time she followed around a 65 Mustang which didn't seem interested in pointing her by. She pointed by an aweful lot of other cars though.
For the second session I again lined up on the slow end of the grid. I pointed by a couple of cars on the out lap, and then a bunch more on the first lap who'd caught up with me. A Corvette caught up to me just as I was entering turn 2, I was taking the wide line and he was taking the double apex line so he slipped past me kind of naturally and I kept out of his way. The problem with that was even though the C group had very relaxed passing rules, the rules were point by only and no stealing apexes. I hadn't pointed him by and he stole the apex. If I'd kept the line I'd intended to, I might have T-Boned him. After that I got mostly clear track until the end when I caught up with a WRX and managed to pass it. I later talked to the driver, she was parked just next to me in the paddock, she was being moved down to the B group. In the first session I'd left the traction control on, and I'd noticed it doing its thing, so I turned it to DTC mode for this session. It worked relatively well, I could feel it intervening, but its interventions were short, they felt like hiccups. I got a couple of 1:57s and 4 laps under 2 minutes. I was also thinking I wasn't on the power as much as I'd like to be.
I again hot swapped with my wife, and again took time to check the wheels, so she was a little late to the grid. By the time she was going out, the first cars were already completing their first laps. So again she was pointing cars by, but this time found a different old Mustang to hold her up. This one seemed to be doing a lead follow with an instructor. When she finally did get past them, it was a little late going into turn 5 and she thought they were waving the black flag at her, so she came into the pits only to be told she hadn't been black flagged. After that there wasn't much of the session left.
For the 3rd session I again lined up on the slow end of the grid and had 6 laps where the only cars I saw were a Miata I passed and a Corvette passing me. I turned off the traction control (leaving only the E-Diff active) and didn't notice it intervening in anyway. I got plenty of wheel spin, not sure if that was 1 or 2 wheels spinning, and had to do my own traction controlling. All 6 of the laps were 1:57 or better, including a 1:54.2 which turned out to be the best lap of the day. Of course, with the lap time not working, I had no idea of that at the time. On the 7th lap I left my braking into turn 2 a little late and went 4 wheels over the line and was black flagged. In the pits I couldn't work out what the problem was, the guy seemed interested in looking for debris. I think he was thinking I'd gone off into the gravel, I hadn't I'd made use of the nice new paved runoff area. He finally told me what the problem was, I was surprised that 4 off, but still on the pavement was counted as an off. That was the end of that session. Looking at the video I don't see that I started braking later, but I'm about 20 mph faster during the braking, so had a problem at the end.
I hot swapped with my wife again, and checked the wheels again, so she was again a little late going out, and again got out onto track as the first cars were finishing their first. She was again pointing by a lot of cars, but this time actually managed 2 clear laps, before being held up by an Audi TT which didn't seem interested in pointing he by. By the time she got by the session was over. The 2 clear laps were around 2:08.
I'd been keeping an eye on the brake pads. They were wearing faster than I'd liked but should be able to last the rest of the day. So I decided not to swap the pads at lunch.
After lunch I went out at the slow end of the grid again, at the beginning of my first lap I caught a Miata coming out of the pits. I probably should have just blown by him, but didn't and waited for a point by. The rest of the session was clear apart from pointing by a couple of cars. The clear laps were all under 1:57 and the laps with traffic were 1:57-1:58, pretty good.
I again hot swapped with my wife, this time I was confident enough that the wheels weren't going to fall off, so I didn't hold her up to check the bolt torque. I did take a few quick readings of tire temperature and sent he on her way. The temperatures were even enough that I didn't think I'd need to make any adjustments. My wife actually managed to get out onto track at the tail end of the grid, but still pointed by a lot of cars, and was again held up by the Audi TT. She did have one totally clear lap and wondered if she'd missed the chequered flag.
For the last session I was a little late getting to the grid, but managed to follow the last car out. Unfortunately I got sunscreen in my eye, and then made the mistake of rubbing it in. I had to make my lap while mostly blinded by sunscreen, not a good situation. I managed to get back to the paddock and washed my eyes. By the time I got back on track the session was half over and I caught a bit of traffic. I only got 4 laps, and only 1 clear one. I did catch up with an instructor driving a Justacooper, but it took me a while to get past, he was driving it pretty well, but didn't seem to know what our passing rules were so I had to trail him through several corners. The clear lap was a 1:54.
After hot swapping with my wife, she actually got to the grid on time, so got a couple of clear laps in before the fastest cars started to catch up with her. The first lap was when she put in her best lap of the day, a 2:07.3 still a few seconds slower that the best she's done (and that was in a "slower" car). At the end of the session she again caught the Audi TT. Obviously she wasn't the slowest in the group.
All in all it was a good day, even if we didn't go as fast as we had previously. I compared my best lap of the day with my previous best lap. Its obvious that the new MINI is more powerful than the old one, but I was doing a better job of driving the previous one. That old lap looks pretty impressive by comparison, obviously I need more practice. The session in March was at the end of 6 month where we'd done 6 track days, so I was well in practice and driving about as well as I could. This one I was coming off a 6 month break and obviously need to shake out some cobwebs. We have several track days coming up, so we should get better. For several of the session I was thinking I wasn't making best use of the power of the JCW, I was wasn't on the throttle as much as I'd like. I was also having the same problem I was having previously, I was in two minds about the line I wanted to take. The way I'd been taught to drive fast was to go deep turn in late and get on the power early. It seems the natural way I want to drive is to turn in earlier and to try to carry more speed through the corners. I was constantly thinking I should have gone deeper into various of the corners, only to take the same line the next lap. I need to work on that, and work out which is fastest and do that, or just let me do it the way my instincts tell me.
Mechanically, the car was good. The brakes didn't exhibit any fade, they're still feeling quite fresh even after the day, previously they'd always felt a bit mushy after a track day. The brakes wore faster than I'd like, 3-4mm on the front and 2-3mm on the back. The fronts won't last another track day, so I'll use the Yellowstuff pads for the next track day. I hope they last, I don't have any spare bedded pads apart from the half used fronts. As for the traction control, it did turn off completely contrary to some reports, I'm not sure how good the E-Diff was, I could certainly provoke a lot of wheelspin.
I have video: my best lap: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaOct12Besti.mov
My wife's best lap: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaOct12CBesti.mov
And pictures: http://btwyx.com/LagunaOct12
Apart from the added power, I'd been contemplating the diffences between Shawn and the new JCW. There's the brakes, wheels, Aero kit and DTC. The brakes on a Cooper-S are quite adequate, the JCW brakes are probably overkill. What I was most interested in was the brake cooling ducts in the front bumper as is now standard on Ss (and JCWs). Over heating had been the main problem I'd had previously, so maybe the brakes would keep cooler. The other problem was accelerated wear, the cooling might help there and supposedly the JCW have different sorts of pad. I'd got a set of EDC yellowstuff in reserve and took the tools necessary to change pads is needed.
The JCW of course comes with 17" wheels, vs the 16" we have been running. I'd got some RPF-1 track wheels with the same Bridgestone RE-11s we had been running. In theory the lower profile gives you a handling advantage, but the extra 3lbs per corner is a negative. The aero kit is mainly for looks, but I was wondering if it actually had any practical effect, either lowering drag or increasing downforce. I wasn't expecting either to make a noticeable difference.
And then there's DTC with its EDLC electronic limited slip diff. The effectiveness of DTC or EDLC has been discussed, but I'm not sure I've heard any authoritative conclusions. I was also wondering if the E-Diff would add to the brake heating problems.
It was an unusually sunny day, and I was first on track at 9am. Unfortunately I worked out I'd forgotten to load the track into the lap timer on the phone. I'd just upgraded my phone, but was still using the old one for this as it fit in the dock I have and the new one doesn't. So the old phone doesn't have cell service, and so no way to load the track. So for the day I didn't have the lap timer doing its thing and I didn't know how fast I was going.
I lined up on the slow end of the grid and also unfortunately on the outlap, I heard something rattling around. Not a good thing, so I pulled into the pits to find it, I couldn't find it, but eventually worked out it was in the glovebox and probably safe, I'd left a tire pressure gauge in the there. I went out, and had clear track and ran a 1:58, then the yellow and white flags flew. A Corvette was in the gravel trap at turn 2 smoking, while the recovery truck was trying to pull it out. It seems something let go and it was leaking. After a couple of yellow laps it was dragged out of the gravel, and then they put out the chequered flag and the session was over.
They ended the session early to clean up the track, so my wife wasn't waiting at the grid as I was expecting. We were hot swapping again, her sessions were directly after mine. I found her, made a quick check of the wheel bolts and got my wife to the grid. Only for her to just sit there for 20 minutes while they cleared things up. I was being paranoid about the wheel bolt torque as the last time I'd run new wheels the bolts detorqued and the wheels nearly fell off after 2 sessions. My wife's session was shortened by the delay and she didn't get any clear laps. For a long time she followed around a 65 Mustang which didn't seem interested in pointing her by. She pointed by an aweful lot of other cars though.
For the second session I again lined up on the slow end of the grid. I pointed by a couple of cars on the out lap, and then a bunch more on the first lap who'd caught up with me. A Corvette caught up to me just as I was entering turn 2, I was taking the wide line and he was taking the double apex line so he slipped past me kind of naturally and I kept out of his way. The problem with that was even though the C group had very relaxed passing rules, the rules were point by only and no stealing apexes. I hadn't pointed him by and he stole the apex. If I'd kept the line I'd intended to, I might have T-Boned him. After that I got mostly clear track until the end when I caught up with a WRX and managed to pass it. I later talked to the driver, she was parked just next to me in the paddock, she was being moved down to the B group. In the first session I'd left the traction control on, and I'd noticed it doing its thing, so I turned it to DTC mode for this session. It worked relatively well, I could feel it intervening, but its interventions were short, they felt like hiccups. I got a couple of 1:57s and 4 laps under 2 minutes. I was also thinking I wasn't on the power as much as I'd like to be.
I again hot swapped with my wife, and again took time to check the wheels, so she was a little late to the grid. By the time she was going out, the first cars were already completing their first laps. So again she was pointing cars by, but this time found a different old Mustang to hold her up. This one seemed to be doing a lead follow with an instructor. When she finally did get past them, it was a little late going into turn 5 and she thought they were waving the black flag at her, so she came into the pits only to be told she hadn't been black flagged. After that there wasn't much of the session left.
For the 3rd session I again lined up on the slow end of the grid and had 6 laps where the only cars I saw were a Miata I passed and a Corvette passing me. I turned off the traction control (leaving only the E-Diff active) and didn't notice it intervening in anyway. I got plenty of wheel spin, not sure if that was 1 or 2 wheels spinning, and had to do my own traction controlling. All 6 of the laps were 1:57 or better, including a 1:54.2 which turned out to be the best lap of the day. Of course, with the lap time not working, I had no idea of that at the time. On the 7th lap I left my braking into turn 2 a little late and went 4 wheels over the line and was black flagged. In the pits I couldn't work out what the problem was, the guy seemed interested in looking for debris. I think he was thinking I'd gone off into the gravel, I hadn't I'd made use of the nice new paved runoff area. He finally told me what the problem was, I was surprised that 4 off, but still on the pavement was counted as an off. That was the end of that session. Looking at the video I don't see that I started braking later, but I'm about 20 mph faster during the braking, so had a problem at the end.
I hot swapped with my wife again, and checked the wheels again, so she was again a little late going out, and again got out onto track as the first cars were finishing their first. She was again pointing by a lot of cars, but this time actually managed 2 clear laps, before being held up by an Audi TT which didn't seem interested in pointing he by. By the time she got by the session was over. The 2 clear laps were around 2:08.
I'd been keeping an eye on the brake pads. They were wearing faster than I'd liked but should be able to last the rest of the day. So I decided not to swap the pads at lunch.
After lunch I went out at the slow end of the grid again, at the beginning of my first lap I caught a Miata coming out of the pits. I probably should have just blown by him, but didn't and waited for a point by. The rest of the session was clear apart from pointing by a couple of cars. The clear laps were all under 1:57 and the laps with traffic were 1:57-1:58, pretty good.
I again hot swapped with my wife, this time I was confident enough that the wheels weren't going to fall off, so I didn't hold her up to check the bolt torque. I did take a few quick readings of tire temperature and sent he on her way. The temperatures were even enough that I didn't think I'd need to make any adjustments. My wife actually managed to get out onto track at the tail end of the grid, but still pointed by a lot of cars, and was again held up by the Audi TT. She did have one totally clear lap and wondered if she'd missed the chequered flag.
For the last session I was a little late getting to the grid, but managed to follow the last car out. Unfortunately I got sunscreen in my eye, and then made the mistake of rubbing it in. I had to make my lap while mostly blinded by sunscreen, not a good situation. I managed to get back to the paddock and washed my eyes. By the time I got back on track the session was half over and I caught a bit of traffic. I only got 4 laps, and only 1 clear one. I did catch up with an instructor driving a Justacooper, but it took me a while to get past, he was driving it pretty well, but didn't seem to know what our passing rules were so I had to trail him through several corners. The clear lap was a 1:54.
After hot swapping with my wife, she actually got to the grid on time, so got a couple of clear laps in before the fastest cars started to catch up with her. The first lap was when she put in her best lap of the day, a 2:07.3 still a few seconds slower that the best she's done (and that was in a "slower" car). At the end of the session she again caught the Audi TT. Obviously she wasn't the slowest in the group.
All in all it was a good day, even if we didn't go as fast as we had previously. I compared my best lap of the day with my previous best lap. Its obvious that the new MINI is more powerful than the old one, but I was doing a better job of driving the previous one. That old lap looks pretty impressive by comparison, obviously I need more practice. The session in March was at the end of 6 month where we'd done 6 track days, so I was well in practice and driving about as well as I could. This one I was coming off a 6 month break and obviously need to shake out some cobwebs. We have several track days coming up, so we should get better. For several of the session I was thinking I wasn't making best use of the power of the JCW, I was wasn't on the throttle as much as I'd like. I was also having the same problem I was having previously, I was in two minds about the line I wanted to take. The way I'd been taught to drive fast was to go deep turn in late and get on the power early. It seems the natural way I want to drive is to turn in earlier and to try to carry more speed through the corners. I was constantly thinking I should have gone deeper into various of the corners, only to take the same line the next lap. I need to work on that, and work out which is fastest and do that, or just let me do it the way my instincts tell me.
Mechanically, the car was good. The brakes didn't exhibit any fade, they're still feeling quite fresh even after the day, previously they'd always felt a bit mushy after a track day. The brakes wore faster than I'd like, 3-4mm on the front and 2-3mm on the back. The fronts won't last another track day, so I'll use the Yellowstuff pads for the next track day. I hope they last, I don't have any spare bedded pads apart from the half used fronts. As for the traction control, it did turn off completely contrary to some reports, I'm not sure how good the E-Diff was, I could certainly provoke a lot of wheelspin.
I have video: my best lap: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaOct12Besti.mov
My wife's best lap: http://btwyx.com/Movies/LagunaOct12CBesti.mov
And pictures: http://btwyx.com/LagunaOct12
Last edited by Btwyx; Oct 10, 2012 at 12:20 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,064
Likes: 15
From: Silly-con Valley
A few things to think about:
- Pick actual physical landmarks for your brake application/release/turn-in points. Then you can move them more easily. Move them in small increments.
- FWD cars don't like to turn and accelerate at the same time, so in general going deeper into corners so you can have the wheel pointed straighter sooner will help you get on the power earlier.
- Think about when you want to release your brakes, and perform your braking in such a way to get you to that release point. This tends to produce more consistent results than figuring out when you want to get on the brakes and letting the rest come from that.
- Trail-braking is something worth looking into. I'm not sure how well your car turns in, but a bit of trail-braking can help to start getting that nose pointed. It will put more wear on the brakes, though.
Good luck! Looks like fun out there--I gotta get out and try it again some time.
- Pick actual physical landmarks for your brake application/release/turn-in points. Then you can move them more easily. Move them in small increments.
- FWD cars don't like to turn and accelerate at the same time, so in general going deeper into corners so you can have the wheel pointed straighter sooner will help you get on the power earlier.
- Think about when you want to release your brakes, and perform your braking in such a way to get you to that release point. This tends to produce more consistent results than figuring out when you want to get on the brakes and letting the rest come from that.
- Trail-braking is something worth looking into. I'm not sure how well your car turns in, but a bit of trail-braking can help to start getting that nose pointed. It will put more wear on the brakes, though.
Good luck! Looks like fun out there--I gotta get out and try it again some time.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
I tend to use the brake markers at Laguna, but comparing video, I see that they've changed the numbers. Where there used to be 4, there are now only 3. So I may have thought I was braking later and wasn't. Confusing.
Man, not gonna lie, pretty jealous that you live up there and can go to Laguna Seca as much as you do. Even if I have Button Willow and Streets of Willow down here, I wish I could do Laguna Seca one of these days.
You should have Watkins glen on your to do list as well. Was close to me before. Watkins and Laguna are my favorite tracks. Followed by Monticello.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
I'd definitely like to try Watkins Glen sometime. I'm trying to see if I can fit that in if we're ever out that way.
I'd like to try just about any new track, I've done Buttonwillow a couple of times and its definitely on the list to do again. I'd like to try Streets of Willow and the Autoclub speedway sometime, I'm not sure how to arrange that at present.
I'd like to try just about any new track, I've done Buttonwillow a couple of times and its definitely on the list to do again. I'd like to try Streets of Willow and the Autoclub speedway sometime, I'm not sure how to arrange that at present.
Btwyx, just read your write up. Glad to see you and your wife are enjoying the car and track.
I have a few of suggestions from your write up. I would suggest not checking the torque on the wheels when they are hot. When the are hot, the bolts lengthen and then when they cool they contract. If you torque them to full torque when hot and they have expanded, when they cool they can break something like the wheel or the bolt. You will need to let them cool a bit if you are going to check them to full torque.
As for the DTC...I would run it in the DTC mode. As you found, it doesn't really cut in that much (on my S not at all) and it will be there if you need it, life if you lift in a corner and the back end gets loose. I can vouch for it working
. I don't know how much the eLSD heats up the brakes but I did have problems with overheated brakes my last time out. Didn't even think about that, but it is a possibility.
For brake pads, I would skip the yellow stuff pads and the rest of the "street/track" pads. As for the yellow stuff, I found them to be nonlinear. Carbotech makes a fantastic race pad, but it is about half again more expensive. However, they are very linear and won't get over heated. I do use them on the street, but they are dusty. People also like the Performance Friction.
Also, you might want to invest in a set of Schroth Quick Fit Harness. They are great for keeping you planted in the seat.
As for WGI, here is something to think about:
Keep enjoying...
I have a few of suggestions from your write up. I would suggest not checking the torque on the wheels when they are hot. When the are hot, the bolts lengthen and then when they cool they contract. If you torque them to full torque when hot and they have expanded, when they cool they can break something like the wheel or the bolt. You will need to let them cool a bit if you are going to check them to full torque.
As for the DTC...I would run it in the DTC mode. As you found, it doesn't really cut in that much (on my S not at all) and it will be there if you need it, life if you lift in a corner and the back end gets loose. I can vouch for it working
. I don't know how much the eLSD heats up the brakes but I did have problems with overheated brakes my last time out. Didn't even think about that, but it is a possibility.For brake pads, I would skip the yellow stuff pads and the rest of the "street/track" pads. As for the yellow stuff, I found them to be nonlinear. Carbotech makes a fantastic race pad, but it is about half again more expensive. However, they are very linear and won't get over heated. I do use them on the street, but they are dusty. People also like the Performance Friction.
Also, you might want to invest in a set of Schroth Quick Fit Harness. They are great for keeping you planted in the seat.
As for WGI, here is something to think about:
Keep enjoying...
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
We just got back from Thunderhill, we were there on Thursday for a Hooked on Driving "Extra" day. For a bit larger entry fee they do a day with fewer smaller run groups. There were only 3 run groups, instead of the usual 4, so we got more track time, and the run groups were smaller so there was more space out on track. There were only 14 cars in my group, for my wife's last session of the day I counted only 7 cars out on track. It meant for about half of our laps we didn't encounter any other cars. I ran in the advanced group again, so my wife ran in the intermediate group.
We took the new JCW of course. I'd been trying to work out how fast I should be able to run. The last time we were at Thunderhill, 2010 in Shawn, I didn't get going as fast as I thought I should be able to, so I was comparing things to my best lap from our outing before that 2010 in Tristan when I'd managed just under 2:30. I reckon the JCW should be about 10 sec faster than that, so I was hoping for around 2:20.
For the first 5 sessions, I didn't manage to go that fast, just 2:24, though I did manage to pass three different Porsches (one in the first session, and two in the fifth), I was very surprised by that. My wife even managed to pass an Aston Martin. I think I was faster in the last session, but due to technical difficulties (finger trouble I think), I have no video or data from that session, so I've no idea how fast that was.
Things were slightly more eventful that I'd like, I ran off twice and ran out of gas once. As Hooked on Driving has a 3 strikes policy, after going 4 off 3 times you're done for the day. After the second off I didn't want to cut my day short so I was going to have to be more careful, I usually don't worry about going off, but the possibility is always there if you trying to find the limits of the car. So my next two sessions I ran a couple of seconds slower, but for the 5th session I found the two seconds and ran my best time (that I know of) despite being more careful. I ended up with a 2:24.1. I really wish I knew how I did in the 6th session, it felt good.
I also had several Ah-Ha! moments, this lead to new lines approaching turn 1, through turn 9 and 14/15 and a realization of what was wrong with turn 3. I was also trying to keep my speed up through 8 and not quite managing it. Here's a handy track map to refer to:
For most of the day I turned the traction control to DTC mode, standard mode was much too intrusive so I turned to DTC early in the first session. That worked well for most of the day, but by the 5th session it was also starting to feel too intrusive, so I did the last session with the traction control off (which just leaves the electronic differential to help).
The first off was in the first session, I thought I'd just given it too much gas between 14 and 15, but looking at the video I see that I clipped the apex berm of 15 (on purpose), but then made a correction. I think the rear wheels also clipped the berm and skidded sideways. I corrected, but was then was offline and couldn't manage the corner so I drove off. That brought out the black flag along with the chequered flag, a combination I've never seen before.
The second off was in the second session, after the first session we had a download session and the group leader talked us around the track. I'm not sure how useful that is, you can't remember all that when you're out on track. But I did take notice of one thing, his idea for turn 1 was to aim at the second brake marker, which would smooth things out and make it so you don't need to do a quick jog to line up along the edge of the track entering 1. (The pit wall means you're mid track crossing start finish, then you want to be over the right side of the track.) The session was going quite we until I had a big brain fart. I aimed at the second brake marker successfully, but then immediately turned in. Usually I'll turn in around the first brake marker, so I'm turning in much too early, so of course I go off, and of course I'm black flagged.
It was during the third session I managed to run out of gas. We'd been a bit short on gas coming up I-5 the night before, so we filled up in Williams, 20 miles before Willows (where the track is). So I get on track in the third session and the low fuel warning goes almost immediately. This is annoying, as when it dings it replaces the speed in the display in the tachometer. I'd been keeping note of my speed at strategic points around the track (like apexing 1 and 8 and the max into 1, 10 and 14). I didn't want to pit immediatly to fill up, that would basically scrub the session. So I switched on the computer to display miles to empty and it was reading 40 something (it'll ding when it hits 60 miles to go). I was keeping an eye on that and it was reading 12 when I passed the pit in after my 4th lap. By that time the last lap flag was out (to tell coaches to come in to coach the next session), so I was wondering if I could make the next lap and get to the checkered flag. But coming out of 5 it was now reading 5 miles to empty, so I let off the pace, and passing 7 I felt it hesitate. It finally conked out at the entry to 9, reading 3 miles to go. Of course this got the session black flagged, and the truck had to come out to give me a tow. Now I'll be more careful about checking the gas before sessions, and I won't run it down to under 20 miles to go. This was being a slightly more eventful day than I wanted. If anyone is reading this who got delayed by this, "Sorry!". I made sure to fill up after the 5th session, so we didn't have that problem again.
My epiphany about turn 9 happened after the second session, where we had another download meeting. The group leader mentioned that it was an early turn in and that there was an exit berm to land on, which was strange because I'd never noticed an exit berm, in fact I'd noticed the absence of any berm anywhere I might want one. So out in the third session I took a look and worked out I'd been doing 9 wrong in all the laps I'd ever done at Thunderhill and the correct way made much more sense. I'd always took a late entry gone past the apex and then gone over the top of the blind crest diagonally and hoped I was aiming in the right direction not to go off, there was no berm where I was apexing on the right side. The better way to do it was to take an early entry, land next to the exit berm, then run parallel to the side of the track over the blind crest, you then do a right hand sweep down the hill onto the straight. That just made perfect sense. I couldn't try that properly until the last session, when I wasn't worrying about going off anymore, taking a turn to early is a good way to run off the track.
It was also during the third session I worked out I was doing 14-15 wrong. 14 and 15 together connect the back straight to the front straight. Together they form a bit of a hairpin. I'd been treating 14 like it was a hairpin, a late entry and late apex would leave me pointing at 15, then 15 never seemed to work right (hence the off in session 1). I worked out if I took an earlier entry to 14, I'd run wider on the entry to 15, letting me take a later apex to 15 setting me up for a fast run down the front straight. At least that's the theory. I could see its possible, I never did work out what the right line, and being careful as I was I couldn't experiment very enthusiastically with the exit of 15.
Turn 3 is a nasty off camber right hand sweeper, its caused me lots of problems in the past. Several times I've entered it much too hot and things got very messy (though not off the track). I worked out what the problem was, its a blind entry. There's a slight rise just before 3, so you can't actually see the corner until you're right on top of it, and its too late to start braking. Its also surprisingly soon after you exit 2. In the absence of visible clues I was braking too late, making sure to brake earlier solved that and made 3 much easier.
Turn 8 is one of the keys to a fast lap. In Tristan my fastest laps came when I worked up to taking 8 flat out, without lifting. Its a very fast left hander on what is almost a straight from turns 6 to 9. You exit 6 and take 7 flat out, then you have 8 where you need as much speed as possible to get up the hill to 9. There's a wide area of pavement for you to run wide at the exit of 8, but if you get it wrong and go off sideways you could very well roll, its been known to happen. In Tristan I worked up to where I was entering 8 at 85 mph and managing to keep most of that speed up to 9. In the JCW though I was nearing 100 by the time I got to 8, I'm pretty sure I couldn't make it at that speed. I was trying to keep the speed up, but I just couldn't get myself to take it at more than 80. I know at least 85 is possible, and I wasn't using all the run off area, so I could do it faster, if I could just persuade myself to.
My wife was having fun, with the empty track she was getting a lot of clear laps in. Looking at her lap times, she seemed to settle down to a comfortable speed around 2:40, and did a lot of consistent laps. Though looking at the video of her best lap, it looks incredibly leisurely she had managed to get herself in 5th gear, so wasn't accelerating very fast and never reached very high speeds. She managed much higher speeds on other laps according to the data, but this was the best lap time. I can't work out how that happened. We were hot swapping of course, with only three run groups, that's inevitable. Hooked were being very efficient about getting people on track, so I was losing about a lap each session.
For the 5th session she complained of something wrong with the brakes and her lap times were down substantially. I don't know what the problem was. I'd occasionally suffered some very squarely braking, particularly into 10. Though looking at the data the entry into 10 is where I generated the most braking force, it peaks at 1.32G, which is impressive. 10 also causes me trouble at time, as the brake markers are on the wrong side of the road, they're on the inside, not the outside where you're doing your braking. A few times I'd entered 10 too hot because I'd not seen any braking reference. The brakes in general held up well, I'd installed some EBC Yellowstuff pads, I'm not sure there's enough on them for another day though. The Yellowstuff seemed to change the brake feel where you'd have to push the pedal further to get the same brake effort, I don't think it was fade. I might have suffered some fade right at the very end, where I almost ran off at 14, but that might be just me braking too late (without the video its difficult to tell). At one point I measured the brake temperature at 660F, that was after a cool down lap.
There was also a recurrence of the problem we had in Shawn at Thunderhill, where there was thumping going round some corners. I'd never worked out what the problem with Shawn was, it may just have been "clag" sticking to the tire. It happened again, and was bad enough in the 4th session I came back to the paddock to check the wheels weren't falling off. They weren't, the tire pressures were all good, so I went back out again and didn't worry about it. That meant I only got the one flying lap for the session.
For most of the day I was also finding the gearing wasn't quite right, just as I had at Laguna. I was bumping against the rev limiter at the end of the front straight. I was also getting close going into 10 and 14. At Thunderhill there is a race garage which offers to dyno you car, which among other things will tell you the correct shift points. I'd meant to take advantage of that previously, but never got around to it. This time I did, so I now have a dyno plot. The guy running the dyno recommended shifting no later than 5500 revs when the power starts to fall off. I plugged the numbers into my spreadsheet which calculates the shift points correctly and see that I should be changing up at 6200 in 3rd (83mph), and 5900 in 4th (103mph). I'd been running up to the red line in each gear as that what the dyno plots I'd found suggested. This car doesn't quite seem to have the top end it should. That means I should probably be changing up to fifth at the end of the straight (and at Laguna).
I was also having a bit of trouble with technology. We use a TomTom navigation dock for the iPhone, this allows the lap timer to get more accurate fixes. But the dock was playing up, the previous day it had failed and stopped getting GPS fixes which made navigation awkward. This time it stopped supplying the lap timer with fixes during my wife's fourth session, so I switched over to use Rev for data logging instead. That managed to crash when I was trying to save the data for my last session, leaving me with no idea how I'd done. (If I have the data and no video I can still get a pretty good idea of lap times.)
I have video of of one of my best laps (though I'm sure I did a better one in the sixth session): http://btwyx.com/Movies/THillOct12Besti.mov
And my wife's best lap: http://btwyx.com/Movies/THillOct12CBesti.mov
There was no photographer covering the event, so I only have a few I took. I was too busy most of the time to think about that. I never remembered to ask my wife to take some of me while I was out.
And this is me trying to be a little arty.
We took the new JCW of course. I'd been trying to work out how fast I should be able to run. The last time we were at Thunderhill, 2010 in Shawn, I didn't get going as fast as I thought I should be able to, so I was comparing things to my best lap from our outing before that 2010 in Tristan when I'd managed just under 2:30. I reckon the JCW should be about 10 sec faster than that, so I was hoping for around 2:20.
For the first 5 sessions, I didn't manage to go that fast, just 2:24, though I did manage to pass three different Porsches (one in the first session, and two in the fifth), I was very surprised by that. My wife even managed to pass an Aston Martin. I think I was faster in the last session, but due to technical difficulties (finger trouble I think), I have no video or data from that session, so I've no idea how fast that was.
Things were slightly more eventful that I'd like, I ran off twice and ran out of gas once. As Hooked on Driving has a 3 strikes policy, after going 4 off 3 times you're done for the day. After the second off I didn't want to cut my day short so I was going to have to be more careful, I usually don't worry about going off, but the possibility is always there if you trying to find the limits of the car. So my next two sessions I ran a couple of seconds slower, but for the 5th session I found the two seconds and ran my best time (that I know of) despite being more careful. I ended up with a 2:24.1. I really wish I knew how I did in the 6th session, it felt good.
I also had several Ah-Ha! moments, this lead to new lines approaching turn 1, through turn 9 and 14/15 and a realization of what was wrong with turn 3. I was also trying to keep my speed up through 8 and not quite managing it. Here's a handy track map to refer to:
For most of the day I turned the traction control to DTC mode, standard mode was much too intrusive so I turned to DTC early in the first session. That worked well for most of the day, but by the 5th session it was also starting to feel too intrusive, so I did the last session with the traction control off (which just leaves the electronic differential to help).
The first off was in the first session, I thought I'd just given it too much gas between 14 and 15, but looking at the video I see that I clipped the apex berm of 15 (on purpose), but then made a correction. I think the rear wheels also clipped the berm and skidded sideways. I corrected, but was then was offline and couldn't manage the corner so I drove off. That brought out the black flag along with the chequered flag, a combination I've never seen before.
The second off was in the second session, after the first session we had a download session and the group leader talked us around the track. I'm not sure how useful that is, you can't remember all that when you're out on track. But I did take notice of one thing, his idea for turn 1 was to aim at the second brake marker, which would smooth things out and make it so you don't need to do a quick jog to line up along the edge of the track entering 1. (The pit wall means you're mid track crossing start finish, then you want to be over the right side of the track.) The session was going quite we until I had a big brain fart. I aimed at the second brake marker successfully, but then immediately turned in. Usually I'll turn in around the first brake marker, so I'm turning in much too early, so of course I go off, and of course I'm black flagged.
It was during the third session I managed to run out of gas. We'd been a bit short on gas coming up I-5 the night before, so we filled up in Williams, 20 miles before Willows (where the track is). So I get on track in the third session and the low fuel warning goes almost immediately. This is annoying, as when it dings it replaces the speed in the display in the tachometer. I'd been keeping note of my speed at strategic points around the track (like apexing 1 and 8 and the max into 1, 10 and 14). I didn't want to pit immediatly to fill up, that would basically scrub the session. So I switched on the computer to display miles to empty and it was reading 40 something (it'll ding when it hits 60 miles to go). I was keeping an eye on that and it was reading 12 when I passed the pit in after my 4th lap. By that time the last lap flag was out (to tell coaches to come in to coach the next session), so I was wondering if I could make the next lap and get to the checkered flag. But coming out of 5 it was now reading 5 miles to empty, so I let off the pace, and passing 7 I felt it hesitate. It finally conked out at the entry to 9, reading 3 miles to go. Of course this got the session black flagged, and the truck had to come out to give me a tow. Now I'll be more careful about checking the gas before sessions, and I won't run it down to under 20 miles to go. This was being a slightly more eventful day than I wanted. If anyone is reading this who got delayed by this, "Sorry!". I made sure to fill up after the 5th session, so we didn't have that problem again.
My epiphany about turn 9 happened after the second session, where we had another download meeting. The group leader mentioned that it was an early turn in and that there was an exit berm to land on, which was strange because I'd never noticed an exit berm, in fact I'd noticed the absence of any berm anywhere I might want one. So out in the third session I took a look and worked out I'd been doing 9 wrong in all the laps I'd ever done at Thunderhill and the correct way made much more sense. I'd always took a late entry gone past the apex and then gone over the top of the blind crest diagonally and hoped I was aiming in the right direction not to go off, there was no berm where I was apexing on the right side. The better way to do it was to take an early entry, land next to the exit berm, then run parallel to the side of the track over the blind crest, you then do a right hand sweep down the hill onto the straight. That just made perfect sense. I couldn't try that properly until the last session, when I wasn't worrying about going off anymore, taking a turn to early is a good way to run off the track.
It was also during the third session I worked out I was doing 14-15 wrong. 14 and 15 together connect the back straight to the front straight. Together they form a bit of a hairpin. I'd been treating 14 like it was a hairpin, a late entry and late apex would leave me pointing at 15, then 15 never seemed to work right (hence the off in session 1). I worked out if I took an earlier entry to 14, I'd run wider on the entry to 15, letting me take a later apex to 15 setting me up for a fast run down the front straight. At least that's the theory. I could see its possible, I never did work out what the right line, and being careful as I was I couldn't experiment very enthusiastically with the exit of 15.
Turn 3 is a nasty off camber right hand sweeper, its caused me lots of problems in the past. Several times I've entered it much too hot and things got very messy (though not off the track). I worked out what the problem was, its a blind entry. There's a slight rise just before 3, so you can't actually see the corner until you're right on top of it, and its too late to start braking. Its also surprisingly soon after you exit 2. In the absence of visible clues I was braking too late, making sure to brake earlier solved that and made 3 much easier.
Turn 8 is one of the keys to a fast lap. In Tristan my fastest laps came when I worked up to taking 8 flat out, without lifting. Its a very fast left hander on what is almost a straight from turns 6 to 9. You exit 6 and take 7 flat out, then you have 8 where you need as much speed as possible to get up the hill to 9. There's a wide area of pavement for you to run wide at the exit of 8, but if you get it wrong and go off sideways you could very well roll, its been known to happen. In Tristan I worked up to where I was entering 8 at 85 mph and managing to keep most of that speed up to 9. In the JCW though I was nearing 100 by the time I got to 8, I'm pretty sure I couldn't make it at that speed. I was trying to keep the speed up, but I just couldn't get myself to take it at more than 80. I know at least 85 is possible, and I wasn't using all the run off area, so I could do it faster, if I could just persuade myself to.
My wife was having fun, with the empty track she was getting a lot of clear laps in. Looking at her lap times, she seemed to settle down to a comfortable speed around 2:40, and did a lot of consistent laps. Though looking at the video of her best lap, it looks incredibly leisurely she had managed to get herself in 5th gear, so wasn't accelerating very fast and never reached very high speeds. She managed much higher speeds on other laps according to the data, but this was the best lap time. I can't work out how that happened. We were hot swapping of course, with only three run groups, that's inevitable. Hooked were being very efficient about getting people on track, so I was losing about a lap each session.
For the 5th session she complained of something wrong with the brakes and her lap times were down substantially. I don't know what the problem was. I'd occasionally suffered some very squarely braking, particularly into 10. Though looking at the data the entry into 10 is where I generated the most braking force, it peaks at 1.32G, which is impressive. 10 also causes me trouble at time, as the brake markers are on the wrong side of the road, they're on the inside, not the outside where you're doing your braking. A few times I'd entered 10 too hot because I'd not seen any braking reference. The brakes in general held up well, I'd installed some EBC Yellowstuff pads, I'm not sure there's enough on them for another day though. The Yellowstuff seemed to change the brake feel where you'd have to push the pedal further to get the same brake effort, I don't think it was fade. I might have suffered some fade right at the very end, where I almost ran off at 14, but that might be just me braking too late (without the video its difficult to tell). At one point I measured the brake temperature at 660F, that was after a cool down lap.
There was also a recurrence of the problem we had in Shawn at Thunderhill, where there was thumping going round some corners. I'd never worked out what the problem with Shawn was, it may just have been "clag" sticking to the tire. It happened again, and was bad enough in the 4th session I came back to the paddock to check the wheels weren't falling off. They weren't, the tire pressures were all good, so I went back out again and didn't worry about it. That meant I only got the one flying lap for the session.
For most of the day I was also finding the gearing wasn't quite right, just as I had at Laguna. I was bumping against the rev limiter at the end of the front straight. I was also getting close going into 10 and 14. At Thunderhill there is a race garage which offers to dyno you car, which among other things will tell you the correct shift points. I'd meant to take advantage of that previously, but never got around to it. This time I did, so I now have a dyno plot. The guy running the dyno recommended shifting no later than 5500 revs when the power starts to fall off. I plugged the numbers into my spreadsheet which calculates the shift points correctly and see that I should be changing up at 6200 in 3rd (83mph), and 5900 in 4th (103mph). I'd been running up to the red line in each gear as that what the dyno plots I'd found suggested. This car doesn't quite seem to have the top end it should. That means I should probably be changing up to fifth at the end of the straight (and at Laguna).
I was also having a bit of trouble with technology. We use a TomTom navigation dock for the iPhone, this allows the lap timer to get more accurate fixes. But the dock was playing up, the previous day it had failed and stopped getting GPS fixes which made navigation awkward. This time it stopped supplying the lap timer with fixes during my wife's fourth session, so I switched over to use Rev for data logging instead. That managed to crash when I was trying to save the data for my last session, leaving me with no idea how I'd done. (If I have the data and no video I can still get a pretty good idea of lap times.)
I have video of of one of my best laps (though I'm sure I did a better one in the sixth session): http://btwyx.com/Movies/THillOct12Besti.mov
And my wife's best lap: http://btwyx.com/Movies/THillOct12CBesti.mov
There was no photographer covering the event, so I only have a few I took. I was too busy most of the time to think about that. I never remembered to ask my wife to take some of me while I was out.
And this is me trying to be a little arty.
You found one of the dichotomies of driving fast - just go slower.
Nice write up.
With respect to the brakes, I am surprises that they lasted the day. Pulling 1g or more you were likely over 1000deg. I would invest in some real track pad.
Nice write up.
With respect to the brakes, I am surprises that they lasted the day. Pulling 1g or more you were likely over 1000deg. I would invest in some real track pad.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
The yellowstuff are supposed to be track pads, what would you suggest?
I'd like something which can be driven to the track, and which are compatible with the standard pads (so no ceramics).
I'd like something which can be driven to the track, and which are compatible with the standard pads (so no ceramics).
I know that EBC lists the yellow stuff pad as street/track, but what they don't give is the temperature rating. Other street/track pads, like the Hawk HP+, rate the the pads up to 1000 deg. It would be nice if EBC did the same. My guess is these pads are similar to the Hawks as it would be hard to believe that have come up with something radically different for this type of pad. BTY - Hawk makes similar claims for their + pad and it is used in a number of HPDE schools. EBC does list suggested applications for their pads - http://www.ebcbrakes.com/automotive/...es_index.shtml - However, the problem in making a decision at this point is they say different things. But on this web page they suggest the yellowstuff for cars under 2200 lbs (I am assuming that is for race).
Given your application, where you are not giving the car a chance to cool down between sessions, I would say that you are more in the dedicated track category than the street/track category. I am very impressed your car does as well as you indicate. I know my car, after a half hour session, is more than ready to come in and cool down. I also have back to back experience with the yellowstuff and the Carbotech XP10 race pads I have used in the past. Hands down the Carbotechs were much better. Higher friction and very linear and no degrading of performance as the session progressed. The yellowstuff took more brake pedal effort at the start of the braking zone and then would need to be released a little as friction built up - not linear, which was my major complaint. I will note that this was a the NJMP Lightning track and there is not a lot of braking there, so I probably didn't get to the temperatures that I get to at WGI. But with that experience at NJMP I would not consider them for WGI.
A very popular choice for pads for track day MINIs are the Carbotechs XP10s. I got my last set from Way Motors. These are very driveable on the street, but a very dusty (not unlike the yellowstuff) and they are rotor-friendly. I would also suggest that you remove the dust shield from the brakes and let more air to the rotors.
Given your application, where you are not giving the car a chance to cool down between sessions, I would say that you are more in the dedicated track category than the street/track category. I am very impressed your car does as well as you indicate. I know my car, after a half hour session, is more than ready to come in and cool down. I also have back to back experience with the yellowstuff and the Carbotech XP10 race pads I have used in the past. Hands down the Carbotechs were much better. Higher friction and very linear and no degrading of performance as the session progressed. The yellowstuff took more brake pedal effort at the start of the braking zone and then would need to be released a little as friction built up - not linear, which was my major complaint. I will note that this was a the NJMP Lightning track and there is not a lot of braking there, so I probably didn't get to the temperatures that I get to at WGI. But with that experience at NJMP I would not consider them for WGI.
A very popular choice for pads for track day MINIs are the Carbotechs XP10s. I got my last set from Way Motors. These are very driveable on the street, but a very dusty (not unlike the yellowstuff) and they are rotor-friendly. I would also suggest that you remove the dust shield from the brakes and let more air to the rotors.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
Hawk seem to say HP+'s operating range is upto 800 degree (F presumably). EBC tell you how the pad's friction changes with temperature, they give ratings at 1000 and 1440 degrees (F). I assume they'll work to at least 1440 degrees.
Still all-in-all I liked the feel of the Carbotechs better. The XP 10s are rated to a over 1650 F. Carbotech doesn't list a low end temp for these but the XP8s start at 200 F and the XP12 start at 250 F, so my guess is the 10s are between these two. My experience is that they do have good grip cold. My suggestion is, if you need to change pads anyway, try a set of these.
Say, I understand that you were at Lime Rock earlier this year and met a friend of mine. Small world.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
The info on the yellowstuff pads is at: http://www.ebcbrakes.com/automotive/...ads_4000.shtml
It gives cold µ as 0.5, 0.31 at 1000F and 0.21 at 1440. That might be why the pedal needed to go down more, they're not that grippy particularly at high temps.
I'm not considering Carbotech, as they're ceramic and supposedly not compatible with normal pads. I'll probably be swapping between track and street pads.
That wouldn't be me at Lime Rock, I haven't been out on that side of the country this year.
It gives cold µ as 0.5, 0.31 at 1000F and 0.21 at 1440. That might be why the pedal needed to go down more, they're not that grippy particularly at high temps.
I'm not considering Carbotech, as they're ceramic and supposedly not compatible with normal pads. I'll probably be swapping between track and street pads.
That wouldn't be me at Lime Rock, I haven't been out on that side of the country this year.
Last edited by Btwyx; Oct 26, 2012 at 10:01 PM.