Good news!
German tuner, 9FF, has a U.S. representative who will flash upgrade ECUs to different tuning specs. They claim 21 hp on a stock MCS and 17 more on a pulley-upgraded MCS. Although these numbers have yet to be confirmed stateside, the things that can be confirmed are removal of the speed limiter and 300 more RPM beyond the stock redline/rev limit. The price is $720 and they do Porsche and BMW 'M' ECUs too. We will try flashing the first five cars in the next two weeks. The trick will be in getting the cars here at the same time. Call if you want to be one of the first to get this upgrade, or wait to see dyno results and check back with us later.
This procedure takes place in 15 minutes, without removing the control unit or unplugging it. The flash is done through a port under the steering column. Although this does not allow us to reprogram the unit ourselves, at least a knowledgeable technician did the programming on a car with and without the pulley and it is likely to be quite good, as 9FF has an excellent reputation for tuning.

PerfPow

http://www.perfectpowerinc.com
_________________
<IMG SRC="https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ized.jpg" IMG> SPUD

 

I will be impatiently standing by, but if an ECU can give me 17 more horses on top of my pulley - WOW!

 

Very interesting considering EVOTECH from Germany has their own tuning branch in the US and has been doing the same type upgrade for the S for the past year and almost the same price and results.

 

It'll be interesting to see actual customer tests for both the 9FF and the Evo product (although the only customer tests of the Evo that I have seen have been disappointing, to say the least).

 

$720 for a chip. I mean, even expensive chips don't go above $400 unless they offer various modes and services like APR. Valet mode, 93 octane, etc...

Now if that isn't an arguement for the JCW kit I dunno what is. And i was one of the ones who argued AGAINST the JCW kit.


Now you are looking at $350 for a pulley, $720 for ECU, $700 muffler, $150-250 for airbox...

Nice results, but work on the pricing a little.

 

Puffs,

I have to disagree there. I know the pricing seems expensive, but just looking at your list, you are well under $2000 and still at the performance level of the JCW kit.

I't still overpriced (the JCW kit). What would the pricing have to be on their ECU if you broke it out? You have an exhaust ($800), a pulley ($350), and a ported and polished head ($1000). That adds up to $2150, so the remaining $4500 cost would make that ECU upgrade $2350 . I know that's not how the pricing works, since it is a kit, but the point is made with this illustration.

 

How about someone pays for this kit, and I'll bring over my
logic analyzer and capture the bus traffic and post the file?

 

>>How about someone pays for this kit, and I'll bring over my
>> logic analyzer and capture the bus traffic and post the file?
>>
>>

Know what? A buddy of mine said that there was a movement against Mitsubishi dealers that were planning on marking up the Lancer EVO to boycott them and not buy there. It worked.

I'm not saying we should boycott chip tuners but we should organize and let them know that we won't pay above a certain price!

It's an old thread but I'm telling you. If you get 5 people to do the upgrade at 720.00 and you get 30 to do it at 400 you're way ahead!!!!! If the pulley would have cost 700 I would not have done it.

Keep it cheap!!!!

Yeah? No? Maybe?

-Jim

 

Agreed Randy, but still, there is no warranty.


And it is still just a chip. I know of a TON of chip companies because of my experience with VW's and the 1.8T. They are all in the $300 range and produce similar if not equal gains. Only APR charges more, but they also offer ECMS which changes the equation.

It simply is a LOT of money to justify a actual microchip that costs less than a dollar to produce. That is a WHOLE lot of profit. My problem isn't with profit, it is with the inconsistency of pricing to similar if not equal products.

Yeah, research and developement is expensive...i understand all that. But somehow I don't think the R&D in Germany costs $300-400+ more than a handful of chip manufacturers doing the same amount of developement time.

Look at all markets. Even honda chips are only $300-400 for the RSX.

This is a simple, basic chip that adds 17hp(wheels? crank?). That is $42 per HP.

$720 = too rich for my blood


Just my opinion but that price quite frankly shocked me. Also let me be clear. It seems like really nice gains on top of the pully. I would love to see all this stuff on one machine. Weeeee!!

 

>>It simply is a LOT of money to justify a actual microchip that costs less than a dollar to produce.

And you don't even get a chip. They just reprogram your
EMC through the OBD connector.

What happens when the dealer updates the EMC software? Pay another $700???

 

I think it is protected from reflash.

 

>>I think it is protected from reflash.

Yahhhh!!!

So the dealer can't update the EMC software if there are bugs???

That sounds like a bad idea. What am I missing.

 

Forget the $720 for a sec. Let's talk HP. What's the odds that it adds 17hp??? I hope it does but so far the chips haven't worked out.

If it REALLY gives 17hp (that's more than the pulley except I doubt the chip could add even half the pulley's torque) - I probably would consider it. Keep in mind, thousands of people chip Audis, VWs, and Hondas. Maybe a couple hundred are going to chip their MINIs - at least in the first year. YOu want a chip for $300-400 just wait - until your second or third MINI. B/c when there are hundreds of thousands of them then there'll be thousands of people buying aftermarket parts and that'll bring the price down.

Again - let's see if it gives 17 horses. Because I think most people would pay $240-400 for 10HP, so is $700 really too much for 17HP??? Just my opinion....

Also, according to what the JCW kit gives and what it does according to the figures, I doubt their ECU upgrade does anything besides raise the redline. The JCW kit only adds 22 torque. THat's with a pulley, a head and exhaust. That should give AT LEAST 22lbs of torque right there. So the ECU must only increase the redline which increases HP without touching torque. In other words, the JCW ECU does absolutely nothing...

 

I'd like to know how much torque it adds- that's what's important to me

 

>>It'll be interesting to see actual customer tests for both the 9FF and the Evo product (although the only customer tests of the Evo that I have seen have been disappointing, to say the least).

Andy,

What tests........... Show us? Who? Lets try to get the facts on this one before buring EVOTECH.

BTW: This is getting old from you!

 

For that price you should "own" the flash on a palm device for reprog as needed.

 

I think you are getting confused in saying this is a chip. It's actually a flashing or reprogramming of the ecu. The price will have to come down. Jayoung is dead on in his example. The best bet of course would be a Co. like HyperTech to do a unit for the MINI. I got one for my Silverado pickup truck and it makes a world of difference. The great thing about the HyperTech unit is that you buy the unit, plug it in and over write the stock settings as you choose. If you bring the vehicle into the dealer for service you simply plug in the unit and bring the vehicle back to stock prior to visiting the dealer.

 

Amd how many customers is that?

We will see when Randy is in Florida what the "REAL DEAL IS"!

 

I'm very much looking forward to seeing that!

 

Well, I've sat back and watched this thread sort of 'unravel' for the last 14 1/2 hours. I don't know what most of your experience levels are in programming. I believe we have all different levels of experience and knowledge here in the Performance Modifications Forum at MCO, so I will tell you what mine is. I have run Lycoming and Continental aircraft engines on dynamometers (I'm a Powerplant Rated aircraft mechanic), and I have run Porsche 911 engines on my own Go-Power 557B engine dynamometer for over twenty years. (with computer upgrades) The Porsche engines have been tuned with Webers, mechanical injection and full electronic engine management. Our in-house racing management system gives us the ability to write the software on the dyno, fine tune it at the track, and burn the chips (the 'old way')
In all cases the engines are being 'programmed' or 'mapped'. This means ignition timing and fuel inection quantities are optimized under all throttle positions, engine RPM and temperatures. Carburetor jetting is just old-time mechanical programming. Acceleration compensation (accelerator pump volume) and cold start are also programmed and all are constantly changing during warm-up. When you get your race-winning set-up, most don't really want to share their carburetor jetting, total advance number, or, in today's engines, the software. It represents hours of work, and, occasionally, a blown engine.
When this information (carburetor jetting, or software) is sold, it is priced based on demand. If it is an Indy 500 race-winning combination, it may sell to a dozen teams at a price that could pay for a garage full of Mini Coopers in each available color.
That said, I will happily pay this price to see if 9FF's software works as well as they say it does. And if it does, I will offer it to those who understand that properly developed software can be very valuable. Let's put it like this:

15% Reduction Pulley-$200
Air intake-$240
Average exhaust-$650
Header-$800
The Perfect Engine Management Programming-PRICELESS

One thing about software, that we tell our customers, is that properly developed software can be more magical than any hardware. And if we could give you a 100hp increase by waving a magic wand over your bonnet, wouldn't you want that? How much is 100 hp with a magic wand worth? No violation of your car's mechanical systems, no holes drilled, no rounded off nuts or bolts and no busted knuckles.
I like the magic wand. Anytime I work on a car I like to think that there is no evidence that I was there other than the repair or modification's improvement. Not a fingerprint.

Magic!!

PerfPow
This being my 100th post, I though I'd make it a significant one. Do I have to shift gears soon? Am I overrevving in 2nd?
______

http://www.perfectpowerinc.com
_______
<IMG SRC="https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ized.jpg" IMG> SPUD

 

There has been a fair amount of chatter about costs (for reprogrammed ECU's or their moral equivalent). If one compares the number of units sold for, say, a Honda Civic versus the Mini Copper, I would imagine that it's more that 20 to 1. Yet the difference in price is only about 3 to 1. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Looking at the thread "Actual Customer ECU Dyno Plots", the Superchip appears to add 12 to 15 lbs.ft of torque over almost all of the usable RPM band. That seems pretty good to me. Given a choice, I would look for a source that has a different ECU for a stock MCS versus a free breather (cold air intake, low back pressure cat back exhaust, plus header and low restriction cat). The "one program fits all" approach doesn't seem very efficient to me. 'Just my three cents (inflation).

 

>>There has been a fair amount of chatter about costs (for reprogrammed ECU's or their moral equivalent). If one compares the number of units sold for, say, a Honda Civic versus the Mini Copper, I would imagine that it's more that 20 to 1. Yet the difference in price is only about 3 to 1. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
>>

Very well stated.

 

I am in total agreement with Perfpow. I believe the costs are reasonable for a chip that will deliver the level of performance advertised My concern is whether it does indeed deliver that level of performance. Additionally I have concerns that the program be able to address other modifications that exist on the car such as exhaust, intake, and pulley. Has anyone actually tried any of the reflash programs, and what is the result?

_________________
<IMG SRC=https://www.northamericanmotoring.com/albums/album04/dac.jpg>

'03 MCS, Aero Kit, painted arches, anthracite & leather interior, 18" SSR Comps, sport, cold, HK, computer, rain sensing wipers, H&R springs, Magnaflow, MM sway bar, intake, interior mods

 

The environment I work in, I use programmers to flash parts all the time. It's not the actual flashing that costs money (lol, maybe $10 of the companies effort, max), it's the effort and time put into writing the new program! I can see how, since the production volume is quite low, that prices need to be seemingly high to pay the company for the development time.

There is approximately a set cost to develop a engine management program:
1000 units: $700/each
1,000,000 units: $7/each
See where mass production helps the cost per unit!?

Cheers,
Ryan

BTW, I'd love to see dyno graphs, of course :smile: Any idea exactly what parameters are changed?

 

Advancing the ignition curve might require higher octane than is available in CA (91). That information is needed. Independent dyno testing is needed. If it leans out car to attain the power, mileage might improve, which we all could use. However, combustion temperatures also might be too much. I think there is too much speculation, and insufficient information on which to base a conclusion.