I know, I know, another exhaust thread. But please hear me out.

After extensive reading of most, if not all of the exhaust threads on NAM, I am still pulling my hair trying to decide on which cat back exhaust to purchase. I guess my situation is kind of particular, since I am in Puerto Rico and the local supply is limited (only Alta and Borla local suppliers) and more expensive from shipping.

Anyhow, I had basically decided on ordering a Milltek, since I use my 05 MCS as a daily driver and I want the system to be on the quiet side without sacrificing performance, which are both priorities. My dilemma comes from my stubborness to get a good if not great deal, since the shipping costs ($80-$100 for an exhaust) to PR are substantial.

Recently I have been offered a very tempting deal on a B&B Exhaust including shipping, but I only found limited info about these systems on NAM. Can anyone provide any info on the B&B systems (sound/performance)? Their site provides a sound clip (nice, a bit loud) and says there is no drone inside the car, but no performance numbers. Sent e-mail to them, but no response yet.

I am also open to suggestions/offers on any good deals out there. Maybe someone from Puerto Rico that has a new exhaust lying around ? Maybe someone flying down willing to bring a heavy box with them ? (maybe asking for too much)

Thanks in advance for any info/comments/suggestions!

 

I had looked into a B&B previously and had talked with a local distributor about them. After hearing the opinion of the distributor regarding his comparison of that system versus others I decided it would not be right for me. His opinion was that it was noticable louder than Milltek or JCW. As I recall, there were some sound clips for the B&B also that seemed to back up his assessment.

 

The new issue of Grassroots Motorsports has an exhaust shoot out for the Copper (non-S). Great info! Although I forgot which model won out. But it was light, made good power and was pretty quiet. I think it was sold by Webb motorsports.

 

As noted in the article, very little power is unleashed with a cat back. Its real benefit is weight savings. The better option is to change the header.

 

I'll try to get a copy of the article; however I have an S which I think is a whole different ballgame. I wasn't specific before since I thought the post was long enough , but my MCS is already slightly modded with a 15% pulley(Helix), Alta CAI w/hose, and Denso IK 22's. I think with the added air going through a Cat-back would definetely help.

My budget right know cannot handle both a cat back and a header and I think the consensus is to go for the cat back before the header, right?

Thanks for the info gt6, if its noticeably louder than the Milltek I think the B&B isn't for me either. What did you end up getting?

 

For the S:
A cat back seems to be more appealing because of its lower price. But a header will do more for power than a cat back. But it comes at a price especially if you want a decent cat.
You get what you pay for.

 

This seems to contradict the conventional wisdom (not the truth, necessarily.) All the butt dynos I've read about seem pretty uncertain regarding the merits of headers but most people seem to be on the same page regarding the cat-backs. I personally don't think either gives much more HP separately (together I think they unleashed some horses under the bonnet.) They sure sound more powerful!! And there's no "30 HP" gains to be had anywhere after the combustion chamber on a MINI.
I'm a big fan of suspension and brake mods on a MINI, rather than power mods, but that's another story told elsewhere.
cheers,

 

I'm all for brake and suspension as well. That being said, after reviewing some data we have accumulated recently at some track tests and sharing data with some professional race teams who have decades of data, I am firmly in the camp that a properly engineered header is a better first choice over a cat back. My order would go something like this: software, pulley, cylinder head work, exhaust system, intake system, and a larger intercooler.

 

I had a "one-ball" exhaust done to my MCS at lunchtime today. It is by far the cheapest way to change your exhaust. Basically, a stock MCS exhaust has 2 mufflers in series with pipes looping around back there to mount them 1 per side. The 1-ball cuts the pipes and inserts a new pipe to cut the 1st muffler out of the system. The 1st muffler can then be removed and you drop about 20 pounds. I paid $40 and was back at my desk in under an hour.

 

I wish the header were the better gain, as we make a lot more money on those. The truth from our collection of data is that the cat back not only saves weigth, but provides more power as well than a header (and it costs less).

We have made nearly unbelievable gains with cat-back testing on our own, and are working on releasing that technology - just have to get it all right, from sound to fit.

The headers work, but more on a car that already has some cylinder head work.

These assupmtions are based on literally hundreds of dynos on different models and locations of dynos, as well as three full seasons of track work.

Hope that helps!
Randy

 

My colleagues/associates/business partners/fellow racers/engine builders (a few of which Randy knows here in NJ & PA) have not found much gain in only a cat back system other than weight savings. We have no knowledge of his system, though. But Randy is correct: cylinder head work is where it really happens.

 

Randy installed the catback--a Milltek--on my '02 late last year. Perhaps on its own it wouldn't have been much, but combined with the other "first tier" mods (15% pulley, intake, ECU), I noticed a helluva difference. Purely anecdotal and unscientific, but just my two cents... I've been very happy with the Milltek, and see no need to go header unless/until I also go head, TB, etc.

 

I can tell you one thing for certain, it has been my experience that in the racing community (Porsche and BMW club racing) a header is the first choice if you cannot do both.

 

I dont know gentlemen, but I just topped off my 19% (giac, injectors too) and alta intake with a milltek cat-back, and I can say there is definately a perceivable difference. Grab the cat-back, you will love it. The noise alone is worth it. Sounds so much better than stock!

Once again, thanks to Eric@helix!

 

Great feedback guys, thanks!

I can understand dmh's thinking behind the header and I appreciate all of your feedback, however I think for my particular needs (daily use, some SPIRITED driving) and budget I will probably try to get a Cat-back for now and it still looks like the Milltek should be my first choice.

I was patiently reading all the threads about the Webb Exhaust, since with the valve closed/plate installed the goal is to be as quiet as the Milltek with better performance, but it looks like the price + shipping from Colorado to Puerto Rico would probably be outside my reach. (but the idea to go from quiet to $%&* loud and hard at will sure sounds tempting) The new m7 cat back also looks good, but I haven't heard any sound clips with a resonator.

Well, now I have to find that elusive great deal... anyone heard about another Milltek group buy?? I think I just missed one.

 

Looking over my posts I never gave the reason why I said do the header first. And I don’t want to come off meaning that cat backs don’t work because a properly designed one will but the header is where you can gain more power.
It is because when you use a properly designed header like the MTH you get a high flow cat that is far superior to OEM. The problem with the OBX and such is that they do not come with a cat and people weld on a stock cat which defeats a large part of the benefit.
One thing I have learned on NAM is that people seem to like the sound a cat backs can make; and that is fine. They also can save weight; and that is good as well. For the record, I run an Alta cat back on my ’03 and like it. But I had to add an ‘04+ hanger to make it work. Nothing is easy…

 

You will not gain as much from a header on a MINI, period - even with the cylinder head work.

Hope that helps!
Randy

 

It's merely definitional; it has to do with air flow. A less restrictive cat...

 

Cat back, header? Cat back, header? Catback, header?
I realy have to agree with Randy. Cat back would be my first choice & was.
A well designed, nicely bent system will produce better flow regardless of the header. As much as the stock header is poked at, it realy is not as terrible as one would think. The weight savings, cat back, alone is worth it. In a perfect world you really want both & the head should be addressed to take full advantage of the header. But there's more, ECU tuneing, new injectors.... You gotta have a point at which, enough is enough....

 

^^^^ thats why i ordered borla race last night...

not trying to go off-topic here but i heard it is not really hard to slap on the 02-03 exhausts on to the 04and after minis. is it just a mere hanger change?

 

Cat backs work fine but…
You seem to be making my point exactly as I wrote earlier post concerning modifications. And it's not the stock header that is the real restriction but rather the stock cat -- it is not of a high flow design. In a supercharged engine you are trying to get the gases out and do this more efficiently a header with a high flow cat is a wiser choice. But in the world of NAM things appear differently. You may be fond of Randy but it’s not like this information I am writing about is a secret only to us at MTH. It’s even written in books and practiced by racers.

 

Randy, so you are saying headers don't make that much of a difference? That is surprising after seeing a stock header and an OBX side by side. The stock looks very restrictive. Anyway, I put an OBX with factory cat on mine (which I hear the factory cat is pretty high flowing???). I didn't notice a lot of power (which backs up what you said) but later, I put the M7 exhaust on and that did seem to make a bigger difference than just a car with cat back that I have driven. Maybe because my car has a CAI and pulley?

 

The stock cat system uses two 400-cell catalytic converters with about a 45% flow area, compared to a high flow cat offering about an 85% flow area.

 

The headers do make a difference, but I am saying bang for buck, the cat-back certainly makes more sense. If you have a stock head, the stock header really isn't too much of a restriction.

Don,

I am applying directly to the MINI based on what we have tested, not what is in books relating in general terms. The headers make some power, but not as much as the cat-back until you need the flow from opening up the head. The stock cat is 500 cell, and flows fine. It is actually a tubular manifold stock as well (instead of a cast unit), which again is OK for the stock head. Could you make more with a 200 cell cat? Sure - but the cost for a good cat that won't disinegrate is pretty high up there, and you don't save any weight either. It all depends on what you are going to do and where you want to stop. If asking where to start on the exhaust side though, I would have to say the cat-back on a MINI.

Hope that helps!
Randy

 

You have somewhat mischaracterized what I said. I said it was not only what we know and racers apply but it is also written in books. At MTH we know the header is where the power is because in order to use it effectively you ought to have a ECU remap. With a cat back it is not necessary. And if you think 45% is fine compared to 85% then what can I say? But look, we don't disagree on everything: I'm a Littleton boy and the head is where it's at!
Truly, enjoy your vacation. Don