LOL whatever dude.........

What numbers are you wanting? HP? Won't find any cause no one has said anything about a HP increase. Just being able to MAINTAIN the HP you've got now is the benefit. Oil in the IC will DEGRADE performance. If you can't figure out by now whether or not it is worth it, then don't bother getting one.

 

I was directed to several large threads on the Lightning forums, and just went through 50+ pages of these exact same discussions. Big names are firmly camped on both sides of the discussions, that's about the only fact I can make out! LOL Incidently it seems the more popular term for the mod seems to be 'oil seperator', that at least brought up many more search results.

The amount of oil into the intake systems sure varies by vehicle - I saw some pictures of Lightnings that had to have at least 1/2 quart of build up through the I. man, TB and s/c, not to mention the intercooler. Just incredible amounts of GUNK.

ScottinBend, no need to get upset. Yes I'm looking for HP numbers as yes, that is the EXACT claim made by the vendors of the product. It's not marketed as 'saving you the hassle of cleaning your intake'. It's marketed as 'maintaining HP' as you said - which can be easily measured as I said.

As far as looks - I don't care for it, at least where I've seen them mounted and plumbed. I would definitely get the M7 if I did get one though, I'm not into colored parts, especially when they don't match anything else on the car.

I'm not saying it's a large investment or overpriced either.

If I see some compelling data regarding the 'problem' on the MCS, I'll certainly consider the mod.

 

Mounting it where the DSC is was a great way to keep it stealth and out of the way, I will snap some pics tonight for you...

 

Please do.

 

Thank you, I'd like to see that.

 

Then don't buy it.

It appears that this is being marketed as a long term solution to maintain HP. If you want to wait the 2-3 years for the data, then wait. I doubt any vendors will be doing the long term study that you require though. I mean they would have to invest in a two cars, one with the mod, the other without, drive them all over the place and then test for differences. I don't see that happening for something that probably has a small profit margin.

So just don't buy it.

I'm sure that they will continue to do business without you, others will buy it and like it, you will be satisfied that you didn't waste your money on something that you did not see a compelling reason to buy.

Everyone is happy.

 

My CC collects about 3-4 tablespoons every 4-5 months. I also take my IC off and clean it with solvent. In the 4-5 month timeframe a film builds back up in the IC, but no oil puddles in the couplers and dripping of oil from the IC itself. I also use redline oil which is supposed to be alot more resistant to vaporizing they say.

 

Here are some pics of the Alta:

 

That's not a bad location, but those bends in your tube look pretty steep aren' they?

 

From that angle they do, but they do not kink at all and do take a gentle curve. Sorry, I didnt catch that when I was snapping the pic.

 

What about the thermal properties of oil vs. metal?

 

I like your setup, keeps the OCC out of the way.. and is higher than the valve cover.

What size tubing and T fitting at the PCV valve are you using?
I take it that the other end of the T fitting goes to the valve cover vent and the vacuum source is the throttle body connection, please correct me if I'm wrong.
How about the hard grey plastic tube that appears to be a crankcase vent, did you do anything to that?

 

Ok, you made me open text books I hadn't in a while. According to McCabe & Smith, a typical heat transfer coefficient for heating or cooling air is in the range of 1 to 50 watts/(m^2 - deg C). According to Holman, the fouling factor for light oil in a heat exchanger is 0.0007 (m^2 - C)/watt. So, assuming the MSC IC has an internal heat transfer coefficient of 20, we can calculate the heat transfer coeff. of the fouled IC (denoted Ud): .0007 = 1/Ud - 1/20. This gives Ud of about 19.7, or 98.5% of the heat transfer ability of the clean IC.

 

Thanks, inimmini

Any engineers want to comment on these calculations? If inimini's assumptions are correct, the oil catch can appears to be a solution for a non-exsitent problem.

 

Uhhhhh....ummmm, ok so for $130 you could possibly get a return of 1.5% pf the heat transfer (assuming that you can get 100%, which would not be possible).... so now we need a test to see if there is an impact on air flow....

 

Actually, the reason I am adding a catch can is not for any reason stated so far. I was having trouble with my car stumbling. When pulled out the two sensors I noticed one of them had oil on it. We ended up replacing them and the car was "fixed." I believe these are oxgen sensors so I thought that anything I can do to lessen "rogue" oil running around in my engine in places it should not be was a good idea.

Also, I do not consider motor oil to be "light oil." Additionally, this does not make intuitive sense to me. Oil holds its heat much longer than air, or air conditioning grade aluminum fins. Oil serves as a coolant but only when temps are much hotter. Something in this needs more research. I pull out my old audio engineering books and a lot of that (non physics) is very out of touch with current technology. Oil coating an "air conditioner" just seems wrong....but then again, I could be wrong too.

 

5/32 tubing for the replacement of the hard gray lines from the Fuel Pressure Regulator, and the supplied tubing for the CC, and 7/32 for the PCV I believe along with 7/32 fittings.

 

CARdiac,
If the amount of oil flowing thru the IC is as little as most seem to report (a few tablespoons per week?), then the oil film will be very thin, and not likely to change the internal diameter of the IC tubes or air flow much.

SpiderX,
Agreed, there may be a benefit to keep the engine from breathing in oil, even if there is little to gain from keeping it out of the IC.

Motor oil is definitely a light, refined oil. Heavy oil would be crude oil or maybe a heating oil.

The "holding heat" ability you refer to is known as "heat capacity". This is the amount of heat needed to increase the temp of a given mass of material, or conversely the amount of heat the material needs to give off to cool down. The heat capacity of aluminum is about 204, compared with 2.05 for motor oil and 1.0 for warm air (units of kJ/[Kg - C]). So, a given amount of aluminum holds far more heat than the same weight of oil or air. This is not directly of interest for a heat exchanger, since at steady state the aluminum has already absorbed all the heat it needs to get up to operating temp. It just so happens, though, that most materials with high heat capacities also have high thermal conductivity, which is why aluminum is a good choice for the IC. For heat transfer in fluids like air and oil, the thermal diffusivity also comes into play. For air, this is about 0.000022 m/s^2, whereas oil is about 0.8 m/s^2. This is why, for example, I'd much rather be up to my neck in hot air than hot oil.

 

So if these are so good and oil in the IC is bad (which i know it is from owning a Mr2 Turbo) why havent manufacturers done anything about it? Also will a Catch Can mess with your warranty any? I like that alta hidden like that Itsdchz it looks very OEM. Also why not just remove the IC and clean it every so often?

 

OK, let's look at some numbers . . .

Olive Oil
Thermal conductivity @20°C
0.17
Density @20°C
920
Volumetric heat capacity @20°C
1.650
Thermal diffusivity @20°C
10

(I know, but Olive Oil is the closest I could find to motor oil in the book)

Aluminum
Thermal conductivity @20°C
237
Density @20°C
2700
Volumetric heat capacity @20°C
2.376
Thermal diffusivity @20°C
9975

I left the units off to avoid massive confusion.

Some interesting numbers.

Now some definitions . . .

Thermal conductivity is a property of materials that expresses the heat flux that will flow through the material if a certain temperature gradient exists over the material.

Heat capacity is the amount of heat required to a materials temperature by one degree.

Thermal diffusivity describes the rate at which heat is conducted through a medium.

You can draw some pretty clear conclusions from the data. The oil and the aluminum have a pretty close heat capacity, but the oil is a terrible conductor of heat, by a very large factor.

This is a very simplified presentation, but you get the idea, don't you?

 

No disagreement about these numbers, but keep in mind that the thermal diffusivity of air is about 10,000 times less than oil. The key to understanding why the oil film won't make much difference in the IC efficiency is that the largest resistance to heat transfer involves the air --both adding heat to the incoming cool air from the hood scoop and taking heat out of the air inside the tubes of the IC. It may seem counter-intuitive, but as the heat transfer coefficient increases (better heat xfer), the more fouling hurts efficiency. An air to air heat exchanger is inherently low efficiency, so the resistance to heat flow from the oil film is really small potatos in the overall scheme. In a more efficient heat exchange situation like air-liquid or liquid-liquid, the oil fouling would cause a larger % decrease in heat flow.

To get a feeling for how difficult it is to transfer heat from a solid surface to air, consider Alta's claim for their water spray cooler - increases heat exchanger efficiency 200%! This is probably reasonable, because it replaces the very inefficient heat transfer between air and aluminum with the far better water - aluminum transfer. And this is affects only the outside air interface, which is probably more efficient to begin with (turbulent air flow, larger surface area due to the fins).

 

The only thing I would disagree with is what appears to be an assumption you make above, and I could be wrong that you are assuming this.

The water - aluminum interface is only transitory and really messes with a straight heat transfer equation. You are dealing with a phase change here and that changes the way you calculate the heat transfer. The increase in efficiency from a water sprayer is partially due to the nature of the liquid, but mostly due to the nature of the heat transfer related to the evaporation of the liquid. The phase change for the water, from a liquid to a gas, increases the heat transfer, that's why you see such a hugh efficiency increase with a water sprayer on an air to air IC and not with a straight water to air IC. More energy is needed to make the phase change, heat is energy, so more heat goes away.

Anything that coats the interior surface of the IC, that can affect the heat transfer, is not a good thing. Especially if you look at the long term. The more volatile, relatively speaking, products within the oil will eventually evaporate away leaving you with a thicker sludge like substance, with an even worse heat transfer ability. This further erodes the ability of the air - air IC to remove the heat. Leave that sludge there long enough and it just becomes a layer of insulation, not what you want. Will it have a huge affect on the efficiency? Maybe not to the level of 20-30%, but why deal with it at all? In addition to the other items in the intake stream that can be affected by the oil, sensors and such.

 

The phase change really doesn't affect the argument here. Let's say we had a liquid that doesn't evaporate very easily flowing over outside of the IC, such as mercury (don't try this at home). I think you'll agree that the IC would function far more efficiently than if air were flowing over it. Water is a great fluid to use since it has such a large heat of vaporization, but keep in mind it only vaporizes well AFTER the heat from the aluminum flows into it.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not criticizing anyone who uses a CC. Many of us (me included) do things to our MINIs that approach rediculousness (sp?) in the quest for perfection. In this light a CC makes perfect sense. But in reality, the $$ for a CC is probably better put towards a larger IC or hood scoop.

 

I think that you have the proper thought process with this product. It is not a Hp enhancer as it is more of a Hp saver. I have seen way to much oil in my intercooler boots and the cooler itself to want to leave it that way. If you track the car or do any heavy down hill canyon running you will know what I mean.

 

This is exactly why like this forum.......I learn things here. Thanks