I understand everything. There is data for the above...even if you haven't had a chance to review it.

 

And where exactly is that data? I checked MINI-Mania's site and found no such info.

 

How about based on the fact that it is possible to cool the intake charge below ambient with an A/W. Like to see that with and A/A. A properly setup A/W system is far superior. Many components needed to make them work properly. The I/C itself, circulation pump, heat exchanger for the coolant, etc.

 

Yep, that's certainly possible, as is placing ice on top of an air/air intercooler. My point is this, if someone is selling a replacement intercooler than that claims to function better than stock, it only makes sense that they should show test data comparing it to stock.

The Mini-Mania intercooler (or any of the other ones out there) may well outperform the stock one. Then again, they may not. Who is willing to pony up this much money without any evidence showing that it offers and improvement?

 

from minime05: "Water to air is much more efficient than air to air."



it's not so simple; while the water can carry away more heat from the hot combustion air (a/w), it is conversely harder to get rid of that heat back to the air (w/a)

the main advantage to water cooled intercooling is that it is easier to locate the w/a radiator in the front of the car. the main disadvantage, besides component count, is that you have more thermal mass, which may or may not be a problem,and that you must still rely on vehicle movement to dump heat.

The best benefit would be to cool the w/a radiator with an electric fan so it is not dependent on vehicle movement.

 

So if the stock intercooler is 70-80% efficient on a warm day, are you willing to spend $2000 (on ANY intercooler not just this one) even if the aftermarket one IS more efficient? So far, no one has shown that an aftermarket intercooler IS better than stock. And if there are any, are you willing to pay $2000 for 10% or so efficiency? I'm not. Unless your MINI is tracked over 50% of the time, it's the biggest waste of money IMO.

 

Ditto!

 

Very good point. Poor marketing not to have data to back their claims. My claims come from experience on other A/W applications.

 

Very true. E-fans are a must. Also running a separate radiator/heat exchanger for the I/C. Another little trick is to setup a "cool-can". Basically a coil of tubing inside a sealed container. The I/C fluid passes trough the coil. The can is packed with dry ice. Really helps to pull the heat out of the fluid.

 

Hang tight for the data...

And, I took your comment above as a very general thumbs down - without data - view of larger intercoolers. If I carelessly read into your post, I was out of line with my response. I apologize.

I still do not find a comparison in your data between the stock IC and any larger IC. And before we, or some, rate a larger intercooler as a waste of money, we do need to see the data. That was and is my rant, or beef as you put it. The value decision is afterward, individual.

I am looking at two larger air to air intercoolers. If I decide to make the purchase based upon my own wisdom and you have not had a chance to compare, I will gladly have it shipped to you first, then to me. You can play with it for a week and then I'll take it.

 

from what I have seen, every w/a unit runs a separate radiator for cooling the water, but haven't seent he electric fans though. Ice baths are really only usefull for the drags.

the drags really can benefit from w/a: you can use the ice bath; you can heat your tires with a burnout and do your run before you get any heat soak. try that with an air/air IC, front mount, any mount.

 

Yes, but for longer races, say a half hour or so, air to water intercoolers have trouble removing the heat. Water is as water does.

 

I'm not sure about that. presuming you are getting good airflow through your w/a core, your water will arrive at a equilibrium temp. How is that going to be much hotter than the intercooler itself in a top mount a/a setup?

it is probably the case that a front mount a/a works better than a top mount, mini style, so I would apply that same tthought to a front mount w/a cooling radiator.

 

...water is great for removing large amounts of energy quickly. But, when water is laden with heat, as in a heat soaked air to water IC, transfering that heat quickly with regard to outside ambient (I'm assuming a realistic worst case 90F and 100% humidity) as compared to an air to air IC is a bit trickier? Ice packs help, but what happens when they run out?

Another related question for you jlm or Andy; Andy, you've plotted IC inlet and oultet temps at various rpms with your 19% pulley. Have you compared inlet and outlet psi differences between your 19% and the stock pulley? I would be very curious to see those figures. As we've all read, there is a net gain...though I've never read any hp/lbft comparisons. In spite of a gain, I would expect to see, as a percentage of inlet psi, a greater loss in outlet psi with the 19%. You might say, well duh stupid, but who cares as long as there's a gain. A larger IC might just add a few (expensive) horses back into the equation...by increasing flow, and, reducing temps.

 

You did indeed misinterpret what I wrote. Thank you for admitting that mistake and apologizing.

Intercooler testing entails some very simple equations but some fairly complex and varied test conditions. As I have found, different variables affect efficiency in varied (and sometimes surprising) ways. Until there is some sort of UL Labs standards for intercooler performance, the best we can get is a comparison of stock to modded under the same conditions.

I'll see what I can dig up from my old 15% & 19% files.

 

If I pay 1700 -2000$ that might get me 20hp more because my hp loss is less with a better intercooler than I have to say it is worth the upgrade.

There was data on the RMS one posted and this was the reason for me getting one. I also researched the company and talked to them. They do a lot of racing with their cars....and not just weekend racing...they are actually running in endurance(SP?) races on the Nuerburgring and Salzburgring.

At the end of the day it is my choice on what I do with my money. Either you trust the company or the data that they provide or you wait for someone to be the first to get one and test it themself. If the stock intercooler is that efficient then someone has to explain to my how it is possible that a water to air intercooler is bolted on and you see a 20hp (gain) less loss. Still it remains to be seen on how effective it is when it is hot and you run the car hard. but then you have the radiator sitting right up front in the air to get cooled and you do not have to route the boost thru a couple of bends to the front to go back to the intake manifold.

If you do not believe in the product....do not buy it. Nobody forces you. But then you have people paying more money on other things if you can get it cheaper from others with the same results. Again...you do this because you believe that the other vendor or producer is better than the other.
If people start making comments on everything...why post if they find something that might be interesting or why produce something?


Alex

 

the data i would like to see is the maintained intercooler water temp at say, 75 degrees ambient, after 30 minutes track time.

 

Yes...I too am curious. In a perfect world, I would also like to plot inlet and outlet temps and psi along with plotting water temps. That would help to paint a picture showing the efficiency of the SC/IC system more or less as a whole.

 

Silly me, I thought this was a board for discussion.

You are absolutely right, no vendor should have to produce any test data and all of their claims should be taken at face value without questioning. Now, where did I put that order form for the 195 hp Rica chip?

 

Andy,


where did I say that. Go back and reread my post.
My point is if a vendor provides test data....would you trust it? How detailed does it have to be to satisfy you?
Are you here to discuss things or just making comments to stop any discussion? It is the way you say it and you come across. I provided a link with some data done by the another company....not the vendor.

Alex

 

Well lookie here:smile:

I got the GRS intercooler coz it was bigger with a cool finish (thx to Graham).
certainly its bigger with a more efficient core and its made out of aluminium..
logically there should be a bigger delta

it has made a difference with spirited driving, no more of that heavy anchor feel to it once I'm on the go...
I still have to try it in the summer (I already tried it at 30 degrees celcius) at 40 plus or so. Then I would know for sure what that puneeee stock intercooler wasn't doing.

I will be going to a track day at the Dubai Autodrome in April to test my mods so I will find out what this baby really does for maintaining the performance level.

Nay sayers might want to ask themselves what three row intercoolers are doing on Supras and the likes... remember an intercooler can be of the same size but have a better core.

I didn't even consider a w-2-a b/c this is my daily driver for now anyway and until now I haven't seen any of them on *** cars with mucho HP.

 

I've asked for data from both Mini and RMS - in English - I don't read or speak German. I asked for a comparison between the respective IC and the stock unit...hoping they compared their A/W IC with the stock units, alleviating us from having to draw more from conclusion than fact.

 

IC area, IC material, core cooling/restrictions...three elements central to IC design. Area is usually fixed by space limitations. Material, Al dissipates heat very well...absorbs heat very well...core; the more tubes and fins the better the cooling, up to a point, afterwhich these very cooling elements restrict flow and things begin to heat up again. The reverse is also true; too few cooling fins and tubes might yield better psi, but reduces surface area for heat transfer. I wouldn't say a three row is better just because it is a three row. It may in fact be great, or not. Depends upon the application...that's why we crave data! Good luck with your IC...I may have one soon too, or not.

 

Meb:

well we agree to some point atleast:smile:
wish I learnt Japanese to be able to read the ton of info on the web, same with German (electronics etc.).

now if some company out there made a replacement scoop that was bigger
maybe we would see a more constant delta.
something like the ones on the Subaru's, but they would have to test it in a wind tunnel first... you don't want it to create unwanted turbulence.

I'll be the first buyer Back to reality... we need someone from Nismo or JUN to comment on this matter.

 

Such an item does indeed exist for the Mini, I cannot remmeber where. Check our venders. If I find it I'll post back here.