Drivetrain MCS Boost Guage & Rogue Intake Installation
#27
12-09-2002, 07:36 AM
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>>I have seen some column gauges on some rice burners. The gauges are mounted on the column between the front window and drivers side window. Pretty cool looking actually. All nicely attached top to bottom. You could probably get the 4 gauges attached on it very easily. Maybe retro fit a rice burner version.
Like I was saying, I don't really care for the rice rocket guages....
" I don't like the guages that people put in their rice rockets, this is not a mis fit product, it looks like a Mini product and fits the theme of the car perfectly. i.e. doesn't look like a cheap aftermarket trinket."
Like I was saying, I don't really care for the rice rocket guages....
" I don't like the guages that people put in their rice rockets, this is not a mis fit product, it looks like a Mini product and fits the theme of the car perfectly. i.e. doesn't look like a cheap aftermarket trinket."
#28
12-09-2002, 05:21 PM
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POST #100 Yeah !!!
Just installed the rogue intake... Very Nice.
1st) Installation was easy as pie. Took less than 15 mins. Exactly like the directions and perfect fit, no pushing or cramming.
2nd) The Boost guage shows a tremdous more amount of throttle response. The pressure jumps to about the 7Lb mark and wants to climb very fast. The peak under normal everyday driving was about 7Lbs before the rogue. After a quick run to McDonalds to get a vanilla shake I checked the peak and it said 9Lbs. Never got about 4500 RPM's. I am sure it will peak in the 12-14Lb range if I hammer it on open road. To summarize, I am getting more pressure from this mod.
3rd) The overall feel is more responsive. The car does not have any hesitation when you put your foot in it, it wants to go. There is a definite whine from the supercharger accompanied by a sucking sound both while driving and revving the engine while standing still (really cool sound). Driveability is a null issue, it drives the same just smoother with a more powerful feel when you open the throttle.
Good mod, well engineered and definite improvement in the performance as noted by the boost guage and driver feel.
I would reccomend the Rogue intake to other MCS owners.
I hope this post is of use to other MCS owners that are thinking about either boost guage or intake installation or both for their cars.
Contact me @ kesh420@yahoo.com of you have any specific questions.
The End
Just installed the rogue intake... Very Nice.
1st) Installation was easy as pie. Took less than 15 mins. Exactly like the directions and perfect fit, no pushing or cramming.
2nd) The Boost guage shows a tremdous more amount of throttle response. The pressure jumps to about the 7Lb mark and wants to climb very fast. The peak under normal everyday driving was about 7Lbs before the rogue. After a quick run to McDonalds to get a vanilla shake I checked the peak and it said 9Lbs. Never got about 4500 RPM's. I am sure it will peak in the 12-14Lb range if I hammer it on open road. To summarize, I am getting more pressure from this mod.
3rd) The overall feel is more responsive. The car does not have any hesitation when you put your foot in it, it wants to go. There is a definite whine from the supercharger accompanied by a sucking sound both while driving and revving the engine while standing still (really cool sound). Driveability is a null issue, it drives the same just smoother with a more powerful feel when you open the throttle.
Good mod, well engineered and definite improvement in the performance as noted by the boost guage and driver feel.
I would reccomend the Rogue intake to other MCS owners.
I hope this post is of use to other MCS owners that are thinking about either boost guage or intake installation or both for their cars.
Contact me @ kesh420@yahoo.com of you have any specific questions.
The End
#30
12-10-2002, 05:13 AM
>>you will get more molecules into the engine using an intercooler to cool the air, but the reasoning is not what you think.
>>
>>if you take a closed volume of air at a higher temp and cool it, the denstiy does not, cannot change. Just because something is cold does not mean it is more dense.
>>
>>take the same volume as before, heat it (or cool it) the pressure will go (up or down), but the density will stay the same.
>>
>>I've read in a few places that there will be more power gained from an intercooled supercharger because cold air is denser, meaning more molecules in a given volume, but where are those molecules coming from?
>>
>>here is my explantation: the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.
>>
>>there are more molecules getting in because the cooling drops the pressure, not because cool air is denser.
>>
Simple physics. Heat causes expansion, cold contraction. Cold air is more dense...
Generally you cannot heat or cool air and not effect it's density. If your assertions were correct then we wouldnt intercool, we would just elevate boost levels....
Here is an engineers point of view:
"A cooler intake air is denser and so more fuel can be burned for the same volume of air. More power results and the thermal load on the engine is reduced - or at least not much increased under higher BMEP and power. That’s the purpose of intercoolers on supercharged and turbocharged engines, but a naturally aspirated engine will also benefit from cooler intake air. "
For the whole discussion go here:
Keeping intake cold?
_________________
>>
>>if you take a closed volume of air at a higher temp and cool it, the denstiy does not, cannot change. Just because something is cold does not mean it is more dense.
>>
>>take the same volume as before, heat it (or cool it) the pressure will go (up or down), but the density will stay the same.
>>
>>I've read in a few places that there will be more power gained from an intercooled supercharger because cold air is denser, meaning more molecules in a given volume, but where are those molecules coming from?
>>
>>here is my explantation: the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.
>>
>>there are more molecules getting in because the cooling drops the pressure, not because cool air is denser.
>>
Simple physics. Heat causes expansion, cold contraction. Cold air is more dense...
Generally you cannot heat or cool air and not effect it's density. If your assertions were correct then we wouldnt intercool, we would just elevate boost levels....
Here is an engineers point of view:
"A cooler intake air is denser and so more fuel can be burned for the same volume of air. More power results and the thermal load on the engine is reduced - or at least not much increased under higher BMEP and power. That’s the purpose of intercoolers on supercharged and turbocharged engines, but a naturally aspirated engine will also benefit from cooler intake air. "
For the whole discussion go here:
Keeping intake cold?
_________________
#31
12-10-2002, 08:47 AM
>>I was messing with photoshop - this is a cheezy job, but it gets the point across - what to people think of a setup like this - Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, Boost Pressure, and Air/Fuel Mixture.
Come on! You can do better.
This one will also convert currency and track points against your license.
Jeff
Come on! You can do better.
This one will also convert currency and track points against your license.Jeff
#32
12-10-2002, 09:11 AM
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#33
12-10-2002, 03:28 PM
Daron: "Simple physics. Heat causes expansion, cold contraction. Cold air is more dense...
Generally you cannot heat or cool air and not effect it's density. If your assertions were correct then we wouldnt intercool, we would just elevate boost levels.... "
It is simple physics, but your statement points out that you are mis-understanding density.
density = # of molecules/volume. IT WILL NOT CHANGE UNLESS YOU CHANGE THE VOLUME OR THE # OF MOLECULES.
Heat does cause expansion IF THE VOLUME CAN CHANGE (in this context).
The statement "Cold air is more dense" is misleading. If you take a closed can and cool it down (ignoring the miniscule volume change due to the metal contracting) THE DENSITY DOES NOT CHANGE, ONLY THE TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE.
Generally you cannot heat or cool air and not effect it's density. If your assertions were correct then we wouldnt intercool, we would just elevate boost levels.... "
It is simple physics, but your statement points out that you are mis-understanding density.
density = # of molecules/volume. IT WILL NOT CHANGE UNLESS YOU CHANGE THE VOLUME OR THE # OF MOLECULES.
Heat does cause expansion IF THE VOLUME CAN CHANGE (in this context).
The statement "Cold air is more dense" is misleading. If you take a closed can and cool it down (ignoring the miniscule volume change due to the metal contracting) THE DENSITY DOES NOT CHANGE, ONLY THE TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE.
#34
12-10-2002, 05:29 PM
>>Daron: "Simple physics. Heat causes expansion, cold contraction. Cold air is more dense...
>>Generally you cannot heat or cool air and not effect it's density. If your assertions were correct then we wouldnt intercool, we would just elevate boost levels.... "
>>
>>It is simple physics, but your statement points out that you are mis-understanding density.
>>
>>density = # of molecules/volume. IT WILL NOT CHANGE UNLESS YOU CHANGE THE VOLUME OR THE # OF MOLECULES.
>>
>>Heat does cause expansion IF THE VOLUME CAN CHANGE (in this context).
>>
>>The statement "Cold air is more dense" is misleading. If you take a closed can and cool it down (ignoring the miniscule volume change due to the metal contracting) THE DENSITY DOES NOT CHANGE, ONLY THE TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE.
>>
>>
Cold air contains more molecules/volume. You just proved my point. It is not misleading, but in our application Fact...
Our intake isn't a sealed container/vacuum, thus your assertions, while correct in context, do not apply to the intake tract of an automobile. We are attempting to pack more molecules in the engine, intercoolers do this by cooling the air.
Again, read my post, I am having this discussion as it relates to forced induction automobiles, not cans. I even tossed in "Generally" , anticipating your line of reasoning.
I must say that this issue is really a foregone conclusion. You may argue, but the folks that design intercoolers would not agree with you. No need to go nuts with the caps lock, just prove your assertions as it applies to Intercoolers in vehicles and show me your case, cans withstanding...
_________________
>>Generally you cannot heat or cool air and not effect it's density. If your assertions were correct then we wouldnt intercool, we would just elevate boost levels.... "
>>
>>It is simple physics, but your statement points out that you are mis-understanding density.
>>
>>density = # of molecules/volume. IT WILL NOT CHANGE UNLESS YOU CHANGE THE VOLUME OR THE # OF MOLECULES.
>>
>>Heat does cause expansion IF THE VOLUME CAN CHANGE (in this context).
>>
>>The statement "Cold air is more dense" is misleading. If you take a closed can and cool it down (ignoring the miniscule volume change due to the metal contracting) THE DENSITY DOES NOT CHANGE, ONLY THE TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE.
>>
>>
Cold air contains more molecules/volume. You just proved my point. It is not misleading, but in our application Fact...
Our intake isn't a sealed container/vacuum, thus your assertions, while correct in context, do not apply to the intake tract of an automobile. We are attempting to pack more molecules in the engine, intercoolers do this by cooling the air.
Again, read my post, I am having this discussion as it relates to forced induction automobiles, not cans. I even tossed in "Generally" , anticipating your line of reasoning.
I must say that this issue is really a foregone conclusion. You may argue, but the folks that design intercoolers would not agree with you. No need to go nuts with the caps lock, just prove your assertions as it applies to Intercoolers in vehicles and show me your case, cans withstanding...
_________________
#36
12-10-2002, 08:59 PM
jlm,
I have been reading your posts, thinking - that's just not right - but you keep pushing it. I am sorry, but you are flat wrong. Air density is inversely proportional to a change in parcel temperature, which also directly changes pressure.
Ideal Gas Law: sigma=delta/theta or density ratio=pressure ratio/temperature ratio
You would be correct in your assumptions were the intake of our beloved MINIs a tube of sealed air - but they aren't! The system is open to the atmosphere via the air filter. The more open to the atmosphere, the more able to quantify this equation and the farther away from your hypothesis we move. Hence the increase in available horsepower with a free breathing intake.
You make colder air, the parcel is more dense and the pressure does increase - sucking more air in to fill the larger capacity. As long as the engine can "breath", the colder air WILL be more dense.
Just had to post!!
I have been reading your posts, thinking - that's just not right - but you keep pushing it. I am sorry, but you are flat wrong. Air density is inversely proportional to a change in parcel temperature, which also directly changes pressure.
Ideal Gas Law: sigma=delta/theta or density ratio=pressure ratio/temperature ratio
You would be correct in your assumptions were the intake of our beloved MINIs a tube of sealed air - but they aren't! The system is open to the atmosphere via the air filter. The more open to the atmosphere, the more able to quantify this equation and the farther away from your hypothesis we move. Hence the increase in available horsepower with a free breathing intake.
You make colder air, the parcel is more dense and the pressure does increase - sucking more air in to fill the larger capacity. As long as the engine can "breath", the colder air WILL be more dense.
Just had to post!!
#37
12-11-2002, 04:09 AM
what do you think my point is, that is flat wrong?
it is not categorically true that cold air is more dense, yet that statement is used to "explain" why intercoolers get more molecules into the engine. It wolud seem that if you could cool down a gas it would get more molecule content automatically. I prefer an explanation that can show where the molecules come from and why.
I agree that you have to apply the right context.
the statement that "cold air is more dense" is true only in a very specific context: a very large open container where we can isolate certain sub-volumes and vary their temperatures and/or pressures...this is the atmosphere. A car intake system with a supercharger is not the same, so the simplistic "cold ari is more dense" needs more analysis. If you really get into gas analysis, you talk about very basic parameters: molecule content and velocity. Density is molecule content/volume (that isn't flat out wrong, is it?), temperature and pressure are related to molecule velocity. Try to understand how vacuum pumps work, and you see the value of this approach.
My earlier statement: "here is my explantation: the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.
there are more molecules getting in because the cooling drops the pressure, not because cool air is denser. "
I stand by this argument.
As far as cold air being more dense, that is true for the air outside. On a cold day, there is a higher air density getting into the intake. That is how the atmoshphee works. but once the air gets isolated by the blower and manifold, another explantion is required.
it is not categorically true that cold air is more dense, yet that statement is used to "explain" why intercoolers get more molecules into the engine. It wolud seem that if you could cool down a gas it would get more molecule content automatically. I prefer an explanation that can show where the molecules come from and why.
I agree that you have to apply the right context.
the statement that "cold air is more dense" is true only in a very specific context: a very large open container where we can isolate certain sub-volumes and vary their temperatures and/or pressures...this is the atmosphere. A car intake system with a supercharger is not the same, so the simplistic "cold ari is more dense" needs more analysis. If you really get into gas analysis, you talk about very basic parameters: molecule content and velocity. Density is molecule content/volume (that isn't flat out wrong, is it?), temperature and pressure are related to molecule velocity. Try to understand how vacuum pumps work, and you see the value of this approach.
My earlier statement: "here is my explantation: the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.
there are more molecules getting in because the cooling drops the pressure, not because cool air is denser. "
I stand by this argument.
As far as cold air being more dense, that is true for the air outside. On a cold day, there is a higher air density getting into the intake. That is how the atmoshphee works. but once the air gets isolated by the blower and manifold, another explantion is required.
#38
12-11-2002, 06:01 AM
JLM, RandBMC, et al:
You're all saying the same thing.
Once cooled, you can fit (the blower can force) more air into a given volume. Technically, you may be splitting hairs. You have a stream under pressure, that as it passes a point, changes temperature. Whether you say it as:
--the density increases as a result of the temp drop; or
--the pressure decreases as a result of the temp drop, and the blower subsequently increases the density (fills the new voids as a result of temp drop) back to the equilibrium pressure
seems irrelevant to me. At first I thought you were each saying different things, but you have a common understanding. Some were only leaving out the intermediate "step" (we are, after all, talking about a dynamic environment.)
Regards,
Jeff
You're all saying the same thing.
Once cooled, you can fit (the blower can force) more air into a given volume. Technically, you may be splitting hairs. You have a stream under pressure, that as it passes a point, changes temperature. Whether you say it as:
--the density increases as a result of the temp drop; or
--the pressure decreases as a result of the temp drop, and the blower subsequently increases the density (fills the new voids as a result of temp drop) back to the equilibrium pressure
seems irrelevant to me. At first I thought you were each saying different things, but you have a common understanding. Some were only leaving out the intermediate "step" (we are, after all, talking about a dynamic environment.)
Regards,
Jeff
#39
12-11-2002, 07:16 AM
>>what do you think my point is, that is flat wrong?
>>
>>it is not categorically true that cold air is more dense, yet that statement is used to "explain" why intercoolers get more molecules into the engine. It wolud seem that if you could cool down a gas it would get more molecule content automatically. I prefer an explanation that can show where the molecules come from and why.
>>
>>I agree that you have to apply the right context.
>>the statement that "cold air is more dense" is true only in a very specific context: a very large open container where we can isolate certain sub-volumes and vary their temperatures and/or pressures...this is the atmosphere. A car intake system with a supercharger is not the same, so the simplistic "cold ari is more dense" needs more analysis. If you really get into gas analysis, you talk about very basic parameters: molecule content and velocity. Density is molecule content/volume (that isn't flat out wrong, is it?), temperature and pressure are related to molecule velocity. Try to understand how vacuum pumps work, and you see the value of this approach.
>>
>>My earlier statement: "here is my explantation: the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.
>>
>>there are more molecules getting in because the cooling drops the pressure, not because cool air is denser. "
>>
>>I stand by this argument.
>>
>>As far as cold air being more dense, that is true for the air outside. On a cold day, there is a higher air density getting into the intake. That is how the atmoshphee works. but once the air gets isolated by the blower and manifold, another explantion is required.
>>
Please seek out a demonstrated expert in this field and get guidance. Your assertions are just.... well, incorrect. It is ok to be wrong, I know I am sometimes. Maybe charts will help you out here.
Lets look at air density calculation as it applies to forced induction automotive applications:
Density=(T1*P2)/(T2*P1)
T1=ambient+273 T2=outlet-temp.+273. P1=atmos P2=boost
Notice how atmospheric pressure , boost pressure and temps are all at play in air density calculations. Something you do not account for in your arguement. Do the math, you will find you are wrong....
Lets look at a air density chart for forced induction vehicles :
We can show that the air density increases as temps drop by applying the following:
% DENSITY INCREASE={(T1*P2)/(T2*P1)*(P2/P1)-1}*100%
T1=ambient+273 T2={T1*(P2/P1)^0.283)-Td} Td=Tdrop P1=atmos P2=boost
So, plug in some reasonable numbers and your density chart should look like this
You can see here graphically what occurs as the air is cooled, density increases.
So, again, cold air is more dense than warm air...
Why is this important? When air density increases, you are in effect getting more oxygen per combustion event. Add more fuel and the result is generally more power.
_________________
>>
>>it is not categorically true that cold air is more dense, yet that statement is used to "explain" why intercoolers get more molecules into the engine. It wolud seem that if you could cool down a gas it would get more molecule content automatically. I prefer an explanation that can show where the molecules come from and why.
>>
>>I agree that you have to apply the right context.
>>the statement that "cold air is more dense" is true only in a very specific context: a very large open container where we can isolate certain sub-volumes and vary their temperatures and/or pressures...this is the atmosphere. A car intake system with a supercharger is not the same, so the simplistic "cold ari is more dense" needs more analysis. If you really get into gas analysis, you talk about very basic parameters: molecule content and velocity. Density is molecule content/volume (that isn't flat out wrong, is it?), temperature and pressure are related to molecule velocity. Try to understand how vacuum pumps work, and you see the value of this approach.
>>
>>My earlier statement: "here is my explantation: the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.
>>
>>there are more molecules getting in because the cooling drops the pressure, not because cool air is denser. "
>>
>>I stand by this argument.
>>
>>As far as cold air being more dense, that is true for the air outside. On a cold day, there is a higher air density getting into the intake. That is how the atmoshphee works. but once the air gets isolated by the blower and manifold, another explantion is required.
>>
Please seek out a demonstrated expert in this field and get guidance. Your assertions are just.... well, incorrect. It is ok to be wrong, I know I am sometimes. Maybe charts will help you out here.
Lets look at air density calculation as it applies to forced induction automotive applications:
Density=(T1*P2)/(T2*P1)
T1=ambient+273 T2=outlet-temp.+273. P1=atmos P2=boost
Notice how atmospheric pressure , boost pressure and temps are all at play in air density calculations. Something you do not account for in your arguement. Do the math, you will find you are wrong....
Lets look at a air density chart for forced induction vehicles :
We can show that the air density increases as temps drop by applying the following:
% DENSITY INCREASE={(T1*P2)/(T2*P1)*(P2/P1)-1}*100%
T1=ambient+273 T2={T1*(P2/P1)^0.283)-Td} Td=Tdrop P1=atmos P2=boost
So, plug in some reasonable numbers and your density chart should look like this
You can see here graphically what occurs as the air is cooled, density increases.
So, again, cold air is more dense than warm air...
Why is this important? When air density increases, you are in effect getting more oxygen per combustion event. Add more fuel and the result is generally more power.
_________________
#40
12-11-2002, 11:43 AM
I actually have considerable background in physics, math and scientific instrumentation so I do have an understanding, perhaps bordering on psychotic.
I'm not interested in calculating the density at the lower temperature and have now issue with your graphs and equations; i am looking for a more fundamental explantation of how cooling can increase the molecule ccount, not an after the fact observation that: "it is colder, it is denser, therefore colder air is denser," a non-argument.
my argument is simply to explain how those extra molecules can get into the manifold when you lower the temperature, and this is my statement:
"the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.:
this is more of a molecular argument than most people are famliar with, but it is correct. The mantra of "cold air is denser" assumes the conclusion, but offers no understanding of how the air got denser. I can find several examples where cooling a gas does not increase density, so a more complete understanding seemed pertinent.
here is another example to stretch out the discussion. Ultra high vacuum chanbers are pumped out using several sophisticated methods which rely on cryogenics. The "vacuum" is another way of describing density (molecules/volume), and actually is decreased by lowering the temperature. Obviously a special case, but questions the mantra.
I'm not interested in calculating the density at the lower temperature and have now issue with your graphs and equations; i am looking for a more fundamental explantation of how cooling can increase the molecule ccount, not an after the fact observation that: "it is colder, it is denser, therefore colder air is denser," a non-argument.
my argument is simply to explain how those extra molecules can get into the manifold when you lower the temperature, and this is my statement:
"the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.:
this is more of a molecular argument than most people are famliar with, but it is correct. The mantra of "cold air is denser" assumes the conclusion, but offers no understanding of how the air got denser. I can find several examples where cooling a gas does not increase density, so a more complete understanding seemed pertinent.
here is another example to stretch out the discussion. Ultra high vacuum chanbers are pumped out using several sophisticated methods which rely on cryogenics. The "vacuum" is another way of describing density (molecules/volume), and actually is decreased by lowering the temperature. Obviously a special case, but questions the mantra.
#41
12-11-2002, 12:40 PM
Lot of cool things you can do with a boost gauge.
1. Make tacky comments aout wimpy cars without The Guage.
2. Great pickup line. "Come out to my car and I'll let you measure my boost."
3 You can now back your claim of having the biggest boost.
4. You can spend hours upon hours trying to figure out what to do with The Gauge
5. Make colored graphs compairing boost to RPM on the x y plane
6. Use the above graph and expand it mult-idimensionally with oil pressure/temp vs tire temp/air temp/ exhaust back pressure all in relation to apex geometry.
7. this is then converted into juels squared divided by the inverse of the O2 sensor's reading in micro farads. Are you still following me. OK, When this is put on a skewed bell curve can be used for a double blind Q-test for not only compression rings, but bearing wear etc. God I love boost guages. But then I'm an old man what do I know?
1. Make tacky comments aout wimpy cars without The Guage.
2. Great pickup line. "Come out to my car and I'll let you measure my boost."
3 You can now back your claim of having the biggest boost.
4. You can spend hours upon hours trying to figure out what to do with The Gauge
5. Make colored graphs compairing boost to RPM on the x y plane
6. Use the above graph and expand it mult-idimensionally with oil pressure/temp vs tire temp/air temp/ exhaust back pressure all in relation to apex geometry.
7. this is then converted into juels squared divided by the inverse of the O2 sensor's reading in micro farads. Are you still following me. OK, When this is put on a skewed bell curve can be used for a double blind Q-test for not only compression rings, but bearing wear etc. God I love boost guages. But then I'm an old man what do I know?
#42
12-11-2002, 12:57 PM
What can you do with a boost guage?
Lot of cool things.
1. Make tacky comments aout wimpy cars without The Guage.
2. Great pickup line. "Come out to my car and I'll let you measure my boost."
3 You can now back your claim of having the biggest boost.
4. You can spend hours upon hours trying to figure out what to do with The Gauge
5. Make colored graphs compairing boost to RPM on the x y plane
6. Use the above graph and expand it mult-idimensionally with oil pressure/temp vs tire temp/air temp/ exhaust back pressure all in relation to apex geometry.
7. this is then converted into juels squared divided by the inverse of the O2 sensor's reading in micro farads. Are you still following me. OK, When this is put on a skewed bell curve can be used for a double blind Q-test for not only compression rings, but bearing wear etc.
God I love boost guages. But then I'm an old man what do I know?
Lot of cool things.
1. Make tacky comments aout wimpy cars without The Guage.
2. Great pickup line. "Come out to my car and I'll let you measure my boost."
3 You can now back your claim of having the biggest boost.
4. You can spend hours upon hours trying to figure out what to do with The Gauge
5. Make colored graphs compairing boost to RPM on the x y plane
6. Use the above graph and expand it mult-idimensionally with oil pressure/temp vs tire temp/air temp/ exhaust back pressure all in relation to apex geometry.
7. this is then converted into juels squared divided by the inverse of the O2 sensor's reading in micro farads. Are you still following me. OK, When this is put on a skewed bell curve can be used for a double blind Q-test for not only compression rings, but bearing wear etc.
God I love boost guages. But then I'm an old man what do I know?
#43
12-11-2002, 01:12 PM
6th Gear
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>>Can someone explain to me what you would do with the boost gage information? Isn't the boost just directly related to the engine speed because of the supercharger?
Most turbo cars have boost indicators, I don't see why an SC car shouldn't have one.
There is already one aftermarket company with a different gearset for the SC that will give more boost per RPM (kind of like setting a turbocharger to open the wastegate later to get added boost). Seeing how much extra boost you're getting would be helpful in avoiding a blown engine.
Most turbo cars have boost indicators, I don't see why an SC car shouldn't have one.
There is already one aftermarket company with a different gearset for the SC that will give more boost per RPM (kind of like setting a turbocharger to open the wastegate later to get added boost). Seeing how much extra boost you're getting would be helpful in avoiding a blown engine.
#44
12-11-2002, 02:51 PM
6th Gear
#45
12-11-2002, 03:52 PM
>>I actually have considerable background in physics, math and scientific instrumentation so I do have an understanding, perhaps bordering on psychotic.
>>
Strange, your arguements dont support this. No disrespect intended, but your just not "getting it."
>>I'm not interested in calculating the density at the lower temperature and have now issue with your graphs and equations; i am looking for a more fundamental explantation of how cooling can increase the molecule ccount, not an after the fact observation that: "it is colder, it is denser, therefore colder air is denser," a non-argument.
>>
Its unfortunate you are not interested in calculations, as it is the basis for your mis-understanding.
>>my argument is simply to explain how those extra molecules can get into the manifold when you lower the temperature, and this is my statement:
>>"the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.:
>>
Unfortunately you didnt look at the formula above. The "Extra Molecules" come from the atmosphere, thru the intercooler and into the engine. The volume is not fixed, as demonstrated by the formula above (boost pressure and atomospheric values).
>>this is more of a molecular argument than most people are famliar with, but it is correct. The mantra of "cold air is denser" assumes the conclusion, but offers no understanding of how the air got denser. I can find several examples where cooling a gas does not increase density, so a more complete understanding seemed pertinent.
>>
The air "got denser" due to the temperature change. A simple fact. Again, the math holds the answer. Unfortunate you are mistaking vacuum related principles as applicable to our discussion.
>>here is another example to stretch out the discussion. Ultra high vacuum chanbers are pumped out using several sophisticated methods which rely on cryogenics. The "vacuum" is another way of describing density (molecules/volume), and actually is decreased by lowering the temperature. Obviously a special case, but questions the mantra.
>>
>>
A special case that doesnt apply to forced induction Mini Coopers, unless motoring on the Moon is in the cards...
Don't take it from me though, refer to the following information from Blower Drive Service (A respected supercharger manufacturer).:
"The concept of intercooling has been around for many years. Intercooling refers to the use of a heat exchanger to reduce the engine inlet air/fuel temperature therby increasing the AIR DENSITY (their emphasis, not mine). Air Density refers to the amount of oxygen present in each cubic foot of air consumed by the engine. When the air is compressed by the supercharger, the air is heated. The heated air expands or it takes up more space. Cooler air takes up less space. Therefore, by cooling, more air (oxygen) can be delivered to the engine. More air means more fuel, more fuel means more horsepower.
The net horsepower gain by supercharging an engine can be substantially increased by cooling the boosted air charge delivered by the supercharger. Independent testing has shown increases of 100 horsepower or more with the use of an intercooler. "
BDS Tech Info
_________________
>>
Strange, your arguements dont support this. No disrespect intended, but your just not "getting it."
>>I'm not interested in calculating the density at the lower temperature and have now issue with your graphs and equations; i am looking for a more fundamental explantation of how cooling can increase the molecule ccount, not an after the fact observation that: "it is colder, it is denser, therefore colder air is denser," a non-argument.
>>
Its unfortunate you are not interested in calculations, as it is the basis for your mis-understanding.
>>my argument is simply to explain how those extra molecules can get into the manifold when you lower the temperature, and this is my statement:
>>"the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.:
>>
Unfortunately you didnt look at the formula above. The "Extra Molecules" come from the atmosphere, thru the intercooler and into the engine. The volume is not fixed, as demonstrated by the formula above (boost pressure and atomospheric values).
>>this is more of a molecular argument than most people are famliar with, but it is correct. The mantra of "cold air is denser" assumes the conclusion, but offers no understanding of how the air got denser. I can find several examples where cooling a gas does not increase density, so a more complete understanding seemed pertinent.
>>
The air "got denser" due to the temperature change. A simple fact. Again, the math holds the answer. Unfortunate you are mistaking vacuum related principles as applicable to our discussion.
>>here is another example to stretch out the discussion. Ultra high vacuum chanbers are pumped out using several sophisticated methods which rely on cryogenics. The "vacuum" is another way of describing density (molecules/volume), and actually is decreased by lowering the temperature. Obviously a special case, but questions the mantra.
>>
>>
A special case that doesnt apply to forced induction Mini Coopers, unless motoring on the Moon is in the cards...
Don't take it from me though, refer to the following information from Blower Drive Service (A respected supercharger manufacturer).:
"The concept of intercooling has been around for many years. Intercooling refers to the use of a heat exchanger to reduce the engine inlet air/fuel temperature therby increasing the AIR DENSITY (their emphasis, not mine). Air Density refers to the amount of oxygen present in each cubic foot of air consumed by the engine. When the air is compressed by the supercharger, the air is heated. The heated air expands or it takes up more space. Cooler air takes up less space. Therefore, by cooling, more air (oxygen) can be delivered to the engine. More air means more fuel, more fuel means more horsepower.
The net horsepower gain by supercharging an engine can be substantially increased by cooling the boosted air charge delivered by the supercharger. Independent testing has shown increases of 100 horsepower or more with the use of an intercooler. "
BDS Tech Info
_________________
#46
12-11-2002, 04:44 PM
daron get a life. you simply have not addressed what i have presented, instead relying on illogial statements, like this: "The air "got denser" due to the temperature change. A simple fact."
my statement seems to aggravate you: " is not categorically true that cold air is more dense, yet that statement is used to "explain" why intercoolers get more molecules into the engine. It would seem that if you could cool down a gas it would get more molecule content automatically. I prefer an explanation that can show where the molecules come from and why." How does yoyur "math" address this?
your reference quote: "When the air is compressed by the supercharger, the air is heated. The heated air expands or it takes up more space. Cooler air takes up less space. Therefore, by cooling, more air (oxygen) can be delivered to the engine."
is almost exactly what my conclusion was, yet you don't seem to see that."
"here is my explanatation: the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.
there are more molecules getting in because the cooling drops the pressure, not because cool air is denser. "
to paraphrase: when the air in the manifold cools, it takes up less space and you can get more in.
I am not interested in the math you presented as it is only a tool to calculate the new density based on temperature measurements, but you seem to think that the math explains the physical phenomenon.
your remark: "Strange, your arguements dont support this (my background). No disrespect intended, but your just not "getting it." is insulting and only shows how you are not trying to understand what I am presenting. I don't think you have a clue about molecule dynamics, so give it a consideration; it's interesting. that is why I presented a few OT examples.
the gas laws (your "math" don't explain anything on a molecular level and that is all I have been trying to look at. If you stepped back and looked at what I have been presenting, I agree that intercooling will increase hp as a result of lowering the temperature...I never said otherwise. the problem is with the statement that cold air is more dense...that simply does not address the situation.
Even your quote does not say that: it says cold air takes up less space, so you can get more molecules in, thus increasing the density.
read your own material.
my statement seems to aggravate you: " is not categorically true that cold air is more dense, yet that statement is used to "explain" why intercoolers get more molecules into the engine. It would seem that if you could cool down a gas it would get more molecule content automatically. I prefer an explanation that can show where the molecules come from and why." How does yoyur "math" address this?
your reference quote: "When the air is compressed by the supercharger, the air is heated. The heated air expands or it takes up more space. Cooler air takes up less space. Therefore, by cooling, more air (oxygen) can be delivered to the engine."
is almost exactly what my conclusion was, yet you don't seem to see that."
"here is my explanatation: the blower forces air into the manifold/intercooler until the manifold pressure matches the blower output pressure; the volume is fixed, temp is hot, molecule count is fixed. Now the intercooler cools the volume; no change in density yet, but the pressure goes down (Boyle's Law) letting the now higher pressure of the blower force more air and molecules in.
there are more molecules getting in because the cooling drops the pressure, not because cool air is denser. "
to paraphrase: when the air in the manifold cools, it takes up less space and you can get more in.
I am not interested in the math you presented as it is only a tool to calculate the new density based on temperature measurements, but you seem to think that the math explains the physical phenomenon.
your remark: "Strange, your arguements dont support this (my background). No disrespect intended, but your just not "getting it." is insulting and only shows how you are not trying to understand what I am presenting. I don't think you have a clue about molecule dynamics, so give it a consideration; it's interesting. that is why I presented a few OT examples.
the gas laws (your "math"
don't explain anything on a molecular level and that is all I have been trying to look at. If you stepped back and looked at what I have been presenting, I agree that intercooling will increase hp as a result of lowering the temperature...I never said otherwise. the problem is with the statement that cold air is more dense...that simply does not address the situation.Even your quote does not say that: it says cold air takes up less space, so you can get more molecules in, thus increasing the density.
read your own material.
#47
12-11-2002, 04:55 PM
"Even your quote does not say that: it says cold air takes up less space, so you can get more molecules in, thus increasing the density."
So unless you are in a vacuum, how is it that cold air is NOT more dense. When discussing "air", a parcel of that air is used for equation purposes. A cold parcel of air holds more than a hot parcel of air - the cold air is more dense, period.
I too have an exstensive background in science, math and physics, most of it relating directly to gaseous physics. I can say that unless you are talking about a vacuum, cold air is more dense - including in our example of the MINIs intake.
By the way, I don't see why you told Daron to get a life, you have spent as much effort on this futile argument as he has. I don't think you have any less of a life. In fact, I think I have respected some of your posts on other topics.
Randy
So unless you are in a vacuum, how is it that cold air is NOT more dense. When discussing "air", a parcel of that air is used for equation purposes. A cold parcel of air holds more than a hot parcel of air - the cold air is more dense, period.
I too have an exstensive background in science, math and physics, most of it relating directly to gaseous physics. I can say that unless you are talking about a vacuum, cold air is more dense - including in our example of the MINIs intake.
By the way, I don't see why you told Daron to get a life, you have spent as much effort on this futile argument as he has. I don't think you have any less of a life. In fact, I think I have respected some of your posts on other topics.
Randy
#48
12-11-2002, 05:03 PM
sorry...i got pissed off. i apologize for the "get a life" remark. and you are right, I have spent too much time on this.
most people like to look at the "macro" phenomenon, like temperature and pressure. I like to look at the molecuar phenomenon that is producing pressure and temperature to figure out what is happening.
if the "cold air is more dense" is good enough for you, fine. but as far as an explanation of how more molecules get in there, it might as well be by magic.
your comment: "So unless you are in a vacuum, how is it that cold air is NOT more dense. When discussing "air", a parcel of that air is used for equation purposes. A cold parcel of air holds more than a hot parcel of air - the cold air is more dense, period."
imagine that the blower fills the manifold, but were to stop (for a micro second) and the gas in the manifold got cooled. that gas would be "cooler, but unless the blower starts up again, you won't get more molecules in and the density would not have changed.
its a cause and effect thing.
most people like to look at the "macro" phenomenon, like temperature and pressure. I like to look at the molecuar phenomenon that is producing pressure and temperature to figure out what is happening.
if the "cold air is more dense" is good enough for you, fine. but as far as an explanation of how more molecules get in there, it might as well be by magic.
your comment: "So unless you are in a vacuum, how is it that cold air is NOT more dense. When discussing "air", a parcel of that air is used for equation purposes. A cold parcel of air holds more than a hot parcel of air - the cold air is more dense, period."
imagine that the blower fills the manifold, but were to stop (for a micro second) and the gas in the manifold got cooled. that gas would be "cooler, but unless the blower starts up again, you won't get more molecules in and the density would not have changed.
its a cause and effect thing.
#49
12-11-2002, 05:24 PM
But you would get more air in. The fact that it was cooled will allow more molecules to fill the area. The molecules will fill the low pressure area created by the cooling - the molecules coming from the intake.
Also, the blower doesn't stop - but I understand that was for illustration purposes.
Randy
Also, the blower doesn't stop - but I understand that was for illustration purposes.
Randy