no comments on my remarks about liability issues and insurance vis a vis vendors and OEM's?


Most of the squawking has been about people not getting the performance or performance boost they were led to believe, but what about issues arising from disatrous part failure?

 

The philosophy is based on a satisfied customer tells maybe 1-2 people, a disatisfied customer tell every person they possibly can. Take the example being discussed.

There are many people with this system out ther but how many have we heard from?

What is your reputation worth? Is it worth x amount bad mouthing to be "right" or is x amount of $$$ worth protecting you reputation in x community?


Tough questions. I don't envy any supplier.

Paul

 

Yeah, I'll make a comment - the cost of the insurance and lawyer is keeping me from developing a lot of cool parts! It's a problem I have with more than this industry as well; insurance is ridiculus: health, dental, homeowners, shop, liability, auto - all of it!

If folks would be reasonable to each other, and cover what any normal person would be considered fair, it wouldn't need to come to all of that. The issue, especially in this country, is that we feel we all must get every last ounce out of a bad deal - well beyond what anyone in their right mind would consider to be right.

It goes to the general moral decline in our society. It is a sad fact, and part of the reason "the customer is always right" just isn't true anymore.
OK, off my rant...

 

As originally stated “the customer is always right, that’s a laugh”
Most of you vendors have it easy. You should get some of the customer abuse that I get.
This is my day:

Sell a service that no one wants, and that most believe is a government rip off.

Sell this service for a price that is higher than most others sell it for.

When this service is provided, over 20% of your customers are forced to additionally spend over 800% of the cost of the service it self and you don’t get one nickel of this.

When the customer asks you what is wrong, your answer must be that you can’t tell them, even though you do know.

Then you must provide the same service again to this 20% at no charge and listen to them ***** about the money they just spent.

And of course this 20% of customers never return because they think you caused them to spend this additional money in the first place.

I do the California State Smog Inspection at a Test Only Center.
Anybody want my job?


Dave

 

If yall don't mind I'm going to post to the general thread title and not to the specific M7 issue.

Customer Service in most places these days is atrocious. I have worked in retail and I currently work for a government agency where my job is to tell people we have to buy some of their land to put a road or bridge there. So I deal with delicate people situations and my time in retail also taught me a lot about customer service.

While there are many a person out there who will deliberately try and shaft companies via return or satisfaction policies there are also MANY companies who use the same policies to try and shaft the customer.

I have had to write stern letters and threaten litigation with UPS & SunCom and have written other letters to countless others. In the end I always got what I asked for and what I asked for was fair, not out of line. UPS blatantly tried to rip me off after they destroyed a package which I had insured. SunCom sold me a cell phone with a chip built in which prevented me from using it elsewhere and never told me it was in there.

My favorite example of atrocious customer service is recent and is from Best Buy. I research tv's around 20" size for my bedroom. Find one which has stereo inputs according to the picture and the description doesn't mention sound. No there was no disclaimer about pics being different. Stereo inputs were important to me because I didn't want to run a Y adapter for my DVD sound.

So I go to the store and purchase the TV which was not on display(did the research online). Get it home, set it up, no stereo inputs. Mono inputs only. So I'm not happy but I just want whats fair. I wasn't about to ask for a new, better, bigger tv or anything. So I call their customer service line. In so many words they tell me to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and no I am not exaggerating. The rep even says, "hey you don't like it go return it" in such a rude fashion I was speechless. So I ask for a supervisor and explain that I don't want to have to haul this thing back 45 minutes away just to return it. Hell, I like the TV and want to keep it. What do I ask for? I ask the supervisor to send me a Y adaptor so I don't have to go out to radio shack or wherever and buy one. What would that cost Best Buy seeing as they sell them...$1, maybe $2? He refuses.

I write a letter to the CEO and 3 weeks later Best Buy sends me an apology letter and a $25 gift card. So what they could have settled for $2 ends up costing them $25 because of crappy customer service.

The customer should be assumed right unless their demands are unreasonable or there is legitmate suspicion of foul play. More customers need to be like me & not just sit down when they get shafted. Letters do wonders.

Randy I'd like to say that your policy sounds like one I'd worship even though it'll put you in the hole a few times. I know it would make my decision to buy from you a lot easier.

By the way, off topic, going for a MINI test drive tomorrow which will probably be when I decide to get one or not.

Matt

 

I won't mention names or relationships here, but I do know for a fact about several people in their mid 20's who find it a thrill to rip off companies. These are college kids that for some reason believe that it's their right to take from others and they don't feel guilty about it. They don't even think it's wrong.

The scams work like this:

You tinker with a game system and break it. You go to your nearest electronics store. Take the product out--extract the pieces you broke and exchange them, then return the new system saying it's defective. In some cases they won't return the original item, but substitute it for a junker they bought off ebay for $10.

You work for a software company that allows employees to buy titles at below wholesale. Say $9 for a $45 product. You buy dozens of them, and try to return them to software stores saying you got them as gifts.

You buy a $150 item using a rebate coupon. You have a store coupon for $20 off any purchase as well. The rebate coupon makes the item cost $30. The store won't allow you to use their coupon for this item--but you find a store with a manager that doesn't know this, and you hassle them until they give in.

You discover a bug on an online shopping site. If you select an item with free shipping which applies only to that item, that if you add that product, and add several hundred dollars more, then remove it, it still retains the free shipping on the entire order. You spread the word to all of your "friends" on the internet about this loophole.

Based on this---how can ANY vendor think that the Customer is Always right???

This is the same generation of kids who trade software, music files, movies (screeners), anything they can get their hands on--and it's not about money. These kids have money--it's just they don't feel they should spend it on these things.

 

As a small business owner I could write volumes about this subject. As with Randy, I quickly found out the the "always right" adage doesn't hold water. Some customers just go too far. An example is I recently had a person buy an item that was supposedly damaged in shipping. The person had turned down the insurance option that was offered at the time of the order. Now he wants a refund. He refuses to sent back the merchandise to verify the damage and he's upset because I won't give him a refund without it. Is he right?

I try working out things to the point of even bending company policies when a problem arises, but I have found a line needs to be drawn. In this day and time, no small business can afford to have an "always right" policy. Sure you upset someone every once in a while, but that's the price you pay to stay in business when you're not a multi-million dollar corporation.

JLM - thankfully, I'm not in a business where I have to deal with much product liability, but I can see where it would be a major problem in today's litigious atmosphere. Put the blame for that on the liberal courts. Any system that awards someone for buying a cup of hot coffee and pouring it on their lap has to be seen as flawed.

 

You sure know a lot of detail. Are we talking about other people? Hmmmm.

 

As a vendor who prides himself on providing outstanding customer service (feel free to ask any of my VacuCam customers), I take extreme offense to your post.

It's truly amazing what people will do, or SAY in this world.

The people in question happen to be relatives who while they are nice people, I despise their actions.

Richard

 

I don't mean to suggest at all that manufacturers, vendors and installers should be free from liability by simply stating "at your own risk..." or that because they are good guys they will take care of their customers...

My point for discussion is that we have plenty of vendors distributing products that could involve the users in liability action, given part failure, etc. The nature of the automobile puts it in a potentially catastophic postion should even a simple part fail. Use the example of the $300 failed control arm causing a $65k plus damage suit. If your bone-stock mini control arm failed, I am sure everyone would expect the owner to sucessfully sue BMW/Mini, but what if it was an aftermarket arm? I have yet to see any statements that show vendors are protected by insurance, should vendor liability be demonstrated. This most likely means the larder is bare should there be a claim and that means SOL for the innocent victim. Since the chances are good that the Mercedes owner has more moolah than the Mini driver, the Mini owner is gonna get it. The Merc owner is probably a lawyer anyway...

 

this goes to the heart of the bigger picture. People who abuse fair customer service also do other things you may despise. I would suggest further defining the problem as moral relativity; that is, the lack of moral absolutes. Today, many people feel that "if it works for me, then it's ok...what's good for you, is ok" and that there is no such thing as black or white when it comes to anything.

In the case of vendors valiantly trying the "old school" customer is always right approach...I applaud them and choose to do business with them. You can usually spot people of such character if you choose to only associate yourself with others of the same regard.

 

I may be mistaken, and I hope I'm not, but I think the remark may have been in jest.....don't you think?

 

Well personally I don't find ANY humor what's so ever in this. I made a post about people I know--there was absolutely NO reason to insinuate that I was trying to hide something about myself. If you find that humorous, then I think you both are pretty sick.

Just my 2cents.

 

Sorry, I was really only joking. I forgot to add the laughing face. I thought it would liven up a discussion that was serious. Seriously I didn't mean any offense and sorry it was taken wrong. I didn't think you did any of these things, I just have a twisted sense of humor I guess. I was just reading through the posts and I laughed a little when I saw your post with all this deep detail, so I just humourously posted this. I meant to add a laugh but the wife was calling me for dinner and I had two kids on my back. In reality I know how seriously this is. I grew up in a family with many criminals. Fortunately I never took that route.

 

TGIF! day has ended. Let's enjoy the weekend.

 

i like to eat chicken

and people who like to eat chickens.

and on that note:
morality + commercialism = commujism(?)

i think that about sums up this discussion. (no, not really)

have a nice weekend! and let us all remember to smile when we're arguing on the internet! because it's like the olympics... but special. (plagiarism RULES!!! w00t w00t)

 

And personally, I think you might want to lighten up a bit. I just said I thought the guy was joking and you call me sick because I saw his intent?

I do have a rhetorical question though. How can you call people nice when they make it a habit of trying to rip off businesses who are obviously trying to provide customer service? People like you're talking about are the kind that helped kill "the customer is always right" idea. I've got a lot of words that could be used to describe them. "Nice" isn't one of them!

 

I'll tell ya something--While I now realize what he said was a joke (cause he apologized to me)--he WAS referring to the idea--"It takes One to know one"---well you seem to have seen his intent as well. Hmmmm???? Ok, I've made enough jabs.

I absolutely agree that people who rip companies off have killed that idea, however, if this was your brother you were talking about--who happens to be a pretty cool human being in most aspects, except for maybe his lack of morals--I think you can STILL say he's a nice guy.

 

I own a business too and most of my clients are golden but after 5 years I can say with certainty they aren't always right. I have had more than a few people try to take advantage of me. The stuff they do is unreal. People have stopped amazing me at this point. As far as I can tell the M7 thread is crap. The guy got his refund and if it wasn't enough he shouldn't have accepted it. We aren't ever going to know how he used the car and the fact that his engine blew certainly adds questions. He should have taken Peter's advice from the start and purchased the bigger injectors. I don't think it was cool to publicly trash Peter and his company when it seems Peter tried to work with the guy. I have heard lots of great things about M7 so I would suggest everyone make up your own mind about who you shop with. As far as the customer always being right- That's how I treat them until they push it too far.

I agree with Randy about the insurance- It's out of hand. People taking every opportunity to milk situations for far more than they are worth is wrecking small business. People treating small businesses like they are Walmart is downright dangerous. Some businesses ride a fine line between profit and loss and too many losses could make the owner think about ways they could make a better living.

 

I think everybody forgets that "the customer is alway right" isn't to be taken literally. It should read "the moral customer is always right."

But, you can have good customer service...even following "the customer is always right." It just takes good common sense. I worked in the customer service field for 8 years...for Delta Air Lines...and many many people thought you owed them the world if a flight was cancelled or delayed, etc. It just takes good judgement as to what you compensate them with. Most reps know BS when they hear it from a customer, so reps compensate them only with what they have to. I find from experience, that the nicer you are to the rep, the better the compensation.


As far as the M7 situation, I can't figure out where the $700 amount came from, but I have also been in the situation of take it or leave it...and I take it. Am I happy, definitely not! But just because there is an agreement, doesn't limit the customer from posting about it, or going further to get the rest of what they should have gotten....in this case, the $799+shipping....actually, the cost of injectors should be included since/if Peter told him he needed them to make the kit work, as long as everything..including injectors..is returned to M7.

I personally emailed Peter when I was thinking about nitrous, and he did suggest getting the bigger injectors when I told him I might have a pulley upgrade. That extra money for the injectors has so far made me wait on the nitrous.

 

Whatever rationale that went into the 700 dollar figure is not for us to discern. I guess cashing the check means that the customer agrees, but only for a few days, or weeks, then he might wake-up one day and decide that he wants some more... Sure, that sound fair. That's bs.

MINI Monkey, I agree 100% with ya.

 

Then Randy tell me why you charged me restocking fee on an Unichip (which you stock regularly, dont think this is a special order item!) in the last SF pulley party when I emailed you to cancel the Unichip order more than 1 WEEK before the pulley party??? I emailed you twice to cancel the order but you choose not to reply me on purpose so you can charge me restocking fee??? I even did you a favor and paid a portion of the TMIC for another customer so he would take the one I cancel from you. Legally you can only charge me restocking fee if I receive your product but decide to return it...but I had never receive the products so you didnt have the right to do so. You wont have any proof since you never ship the product to me and I can use this as an evidence if I want to take this with my CC. And come on, its not like I didnt buy anything from you I spent 1k on your stuff that day at the pulley party! I emailed you again regarding the restocking fee and as I expected you choose to ignore my email. But $100 isnt a lot of money, when I am able to see my vendor clearly that he is someone I shouldnt trust for future business tranaction. Btw I just bought a set of Miltek, but obviously not from you!!!

P.S. Another interesting story about Randy...when I first asked him about the unichip for the 19% pulley he told me he wouldnt sell the unichip without the TMIC because of safety issue. Then, when another customer was willing to take the TMIC (since I offered to pay 10% to compensate for Randy's trouble), he pushed me to get the unichip and now said its ok to run it without the TMIC...what am I missing here, huh???
Also I hate the fact how he pushed you to get 15% pulley with software when you decided to take the 19%! He would then joke and make fun of you with other customers, trying to persuade you to go 15% at his last shot with peer pressure. I am sure he found it funny, but I definitly NOT!!!
Randy...since I never have any settlement with you so its ok for me to go public, correct? And I didnt intend to chip in until I read your posts on this topic trying to PRETEND you are such a nice and honest vendor...you did it yourself!

 

Just a sidenote too...

In most vendor's defense, I think they would much rather you call them than email them. I have a feeling people like Randy are so busy that persistent calling is probably not going to annoy them, in fact I think they'd appreciate it.

Just my input...

 

Well, I'll be witness to this because I was there and my girlfriend and I heard the conversation and the agreement of the payment for not buying the said items. Besides the guy was almost two hours late. I'm not trying to step on anybody’s toes but the guy agreed to the restocking fee and didn’t seem to mind. Randy could have been really mad but didn't seem to be..... It's sad this has to be resolved this way but the situation didn't seem out of hand or unreasonable at the time.

 

Hi Minifly. After posting here, this customer then started a new thread, in which Randy replied here, on page 2 of it:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...t=34167&page=2

I'm under the impression that maybe you didn't see it. If not, I apologize. It is closed now, as I suspect that this one might go that route, but with the link I provided above, maybe we can avoid that here...