There is certainly some uniqueness and cool factor to the JCW kit.

But being that this thread is about high performance heads, and the JCW head really isn't much better than stock (if you've seen one you'll know this), I think it's totally appropriate to cast some doubt on the JCW head. Now bashing the entire kit, there's a certain gestalt to the whole kit. Apparently it's greater than the sum of its parts.

One would think that if the JCW head was really a hi-po bit that they'd take full advantage of it with a header (maybe) and at least a high-flow exhaust (the JCW exhaust, while pretty, is generally regarded as pretty poor in terms of flow characteristics).

That said, what are the main and/or subtle differences between Steve's head, Randy Webb's work, and the Pilo Racing piece?

Thanks.

Marty

 

Only one dyno has been given for the 210hp upgrade, and that was Ians. It showed mid 190's which wasn't too bad. What was interesting was that while the peak numbers weren't as good as an aftermarket car (that was fairly heavily modified) it had much better power in the lower to mid range.

Just looking at the JCW head and saying it's junk is not a true indicator of whether the head is high performance. I agree that the JCW does not have all the features of some heads out there, but looks isn't everything. What are the flow and velocity numbers. That is much more relevant than looks. Heck, the Stock Mini Header looks aweful. But none of the flashy aftermarket units that look cool produce any power anyway. Talk about the JCW being a waste. People spend over $1,000 on a header and for no real hp benefits.

 

I am doing this by memory but is this the dyno test where they had to force cold air into the intercooler to get to the 190's? Hmmmmmmm...

 

While I agree that looks aren't the correct factor, some basic principles DO hold true. Things like enlarged exhaust ports, combustion chamber mods, polishing, and larger valves are components of purpose-built heads. I think headers generally benefit cars where expulsion of increased exhaust volume is a must for better breathing. Putting a header on a stock MINI doesn't do much because it ain't the bottleneck.

The JCW parts are engineered to work as a kit (at least that's the perception). I'm sure the JCW head flows better than stock, but the stock head is pretty anemic to begin with. One of the good hi-po heads out there will net you nearly half the total power claimed by the JCW kit. To me that says a considerable amount, especially when you take into account that the JCW kit incorporates a 14% reduction pulley. I could be slightly off here, as the hi-po heads out there are probably being dynoed on cars w/15% reduction pullies, so the pulley probably has an effect on the amount of power that can be extracted from the head.

Still, I think the JCW kit is appealing to many because of its warranty, and the smoothness of pwoer delivery. There are others among us who want to extract the most out of that $5500-$6000. Just a matter of what you want your money to do.

Marty

 

Someone said that they can tell how good head rework is by simply looking at the head. What can you see besides larger valves? Can you see the RPM range the head is optimized for? Can you tell how well the fuel is going to burn? What do you see that makes it better?

Just asking.

 

Meanboy,

Follow my link above. That was on the 200hp kit. The 210hp kit did not need anything. It reached into the mid-190's.

 

Ian's car was in the low to mid 190s. When he did the cold air blast it hit about 201. Mine was the modified that was 199 and then 214 with the cold air blast. That cold air blast will be like driving our cars from September to June. I would say that the cold air blast is a bit more accurate then without as it is very hard re-create the real airflow to the intercooler with the car being stationary and a fan blowing into it. But, once again it is proven how important a good intercooler is.

Ian’s lower rpm HP was not a huge difference over mine, but I do believe that his JCW head was the source of his gain.

 

MartyR,

Again, just having enlarged exhaust valves does no good. Especially when the stock header is too small for them. I agree with you in the fact that there are more features you can have on a head than appears on a JCW head, but it would still be curious to see how the JCW holds up, not just by looks, but real numbers.

 

None of this is to the wheels but extrapolated to the crank, is that correct?

dgszweda1, I missed the link somehow..can you post it again?

 

That's fair...I didn't know if all of the cars dyno'd had the air directed to the intercooler.

 

It is amazing some of the stuff you read here.....sigh***

 

Absolutely...the warranty is a big deal to me but I can't justify $ 6.5k the dealer wants for the JCW. It would take our MCS close to 31k and that's STI and EVO 8 territory.

 

dgszweda -

the point wasn't that there isn't an easy "by-looks-alone" performance comparison between the JCW head and the aftermarket heads. I fully agree that the endpoint is the true measure. But there are tried and true methods that get you there. And the JCW head mysteriously lacks most of these. Whether it comes close to or exceeds the performance of other heads is questionable and flow numbers are the key. It is really the NEXUS of many modifications (e.g. big valves, opening up the ports, reshaping of the ports, polishing the ports) that really work synergistically to maximize performance. Maybe the JCW head is a minimalist approach because there isn't much to be gained by going with bigger valves, etc. But from what I have read about the benchmark aftermarket heads (Steve, Randy, Dan, TOO), there is some serious power to be had especially on the exhaust side.

And for SURE the JCW kit catapults the MCS into Evo/STi territory mighty fast re: money. Just interested to see some tangible differences between heads of all kinds: stock, JCW, aftermarket.

Marty

 

I am just too practical to spend the money but I applaud those who will. It makes for interesting reading.

 

Easy does it, killer!

M

 

I'm trying!!!:smile:

 

Meanboy,

Sorry, here is the link (http://www.gbmini.net/mtblog/archive/000469.shtml) Below 5200rpm, the JCW had more power than what I would consider a fairly heavy aftermarket set of mods (not the most obviously anyone has seen, but at least $3500 worth of mods - which by the way is only about $1000 less than the JCW kit) up to about 5200rpm, when the aftermarket setup started getting better results. Below 5200rpm, the JCW was about 5 hp greater, and above the 5200rpm the aftermarket was about 5hp greater. The significance of this is that they were run both the same day on the same dyno. A lot of comparisons that people make are between a JCW dyno that they saw two years ago in some NAM posting and then comparing it to some readings from another run on a modded Mini a few weeks ago at the latest pulley party. Take it or leave it, I just thought it was interesting.

 

This jcw bashing keeps repeating itself way too often on NAM site and when you compare this to the warm reactions written about jcw on mini2.com it only reflects the different cultures. Not to criticize or defend either or, this site reflects the view of independent mini tuning fans who obviously enjoy mixing and matching different parts, while the other embraces a garage with a long history and heritage in mini racing teaming up with a world class manufacturer to produce a fast, fun, reliable little car. Interestingly enough the majority of the people who complain about the high cost of jcw car have spend almost the same amount of money or more for a car that at best will produce 10 more hp, while giving up the factory warranty and most likely reduced resale value.
I own a jcw 210hp (I apologize to the dyno purist for saying that number, so please hold your emails) I have made a number of changes to the car and will continue to do so and by no means consider the works car to be the best mini around but one that suits my needs and when looking at or best driving a nicely tuned mini (and by that I don't mean a 19% pulley and an intake) I admire and appreciate the good work. Maybe the reason why we all don't all feel the same way is called an inferiority complex!

 

Commercialization and exploitation in it's purist example.

 

Come on I thought you could do better than an over used cliche remark like that.

 

Okay, everyone bring a cylinder head over to my garage tonight and we'll see what's what. Oh yeah, someone bring a flow bench too.

FWIW, I think JCW doesn't charge enough for their dealer-installed parts package. They sell every one they make!

There will always be people who buy parts from places other than their MINI dealer, and those people will always question the value of things like the JCW kit, possibly out of some sort of inferiority complex.

There will always be people who buy parts from their MINI dealer, and those people will always feel the need to defend the value of things like the JCW kit, possibly out of some sort of inferiority complex.

 

Bisch - You speak German, no?

Doesn't this translate to "You vill now hand me $6,500 for $1,500 worth of power?

 

Okay. You got me. You win. I agree with Andy, they should charge even more.

I'm done.

 

Ja dies ist richtig!

 

I don't know why the aftermarket preferred crowd, bashes us so much, when the JCW crowd totally respects the other side. I really think it does have some to do with culture miniaq. I live in Europe and the US, and see the big difference. The US market is much more into the "mod my cars myself", whereas the European market doesn't think along these lines. Sure there are tuning shops in Europe, but they revolve much more around well known, older companies with tuning packages. Europeans like packages more and will pay more for these types of things. On Mini2, the JCW doesn't get bashed very often, but the site attracts a much more international flavor, whereas on NAM it is mostly American.

Andy, I don't think it is an inferiority complex from the JCW side. I don't ever hear the JCW side say that it is stupid to blow your warranty. Everyone I know respects the people who follow the aftermarket tuning kits. I don't expect the people in this thread to embrace the JCW kits. Just don't keep bashing everything about it, and saying in so many words that everyone is stupid for purchasing something like this. I don't think it helps the community much. I am not trying to defend my purchase, but somehow the otherside has to take every opportunity bashing JCW and defending how they are smarter with their money.
I think it is fine to be proud of the route that you are taking in tuning your Mini, I just think it is immature having to bash something else all the time to make your decision justified. All I was asking for was some respect, I don't think that is so much to ask for, but maybe it is.