This is true, but not my question. Yes, both a base R53 and JCW run 3.5bar fuel pressure. Yes, there are AFPR out there for these cars, but we don't want to lower fuel pressure, and there's no real reason to raise it. I really just need a spec sheet for JCW and base R53 injectors. I don't need the MINI part number, but instead the Siemens Deka part# and specs. So far I have #1521390 as the Siemens Deka part# for base R53 injectors, but can't find specs. Still need JCW injector part#.

Edit: I found the length of the base R53 injector; 68mm total and about 54mm between O-rings. I assume this is the same for JCW units.


Sometimes my explanations get jumbled, but I'll try again: It's most common for injectors to get their name (330, 380, 440, 550, 720, etc) by their flow rate at 3 bar, as this is/was industry standard. To determine what alternate injectors will work for us, we need to establish the flow rate of our base R53 and JCW injectors at either 3 or 3.5bar. Only one is required, as we can find the other flow rate with some basic math. I get the distinct feeling that regardless of the fact that we run 3.5bar fuel pressure in our cars, our injectors, like most, have got their names based on flow rates @ 3bar.. I say this because the injectors out there offered as upgrades for us thus far, are advertised by flow rates at 3bar (with the exception of Mynes' Bosch 550's, these flow 510cc @ 3bar & 550cc @ 3.5bar).

*If someone has a set of stock R53 injectors laying around, or ideally, a set of JCW units, I'll pay to have them bench tested to determine flow rates @ both fuel pressures.* Donations are welcome, because we could then do this for multiple types of injectors which could be potential alternatives. At this point, I have a about 5 different injectors that I'm very confident will work. Let's do some tests, and I'll buy a few test injectors


Zippy, agreed. The tune aspect is critical, but, as long as we can nail the proper flow rate @ Xbar, the impedance, spray pattern, body size, (connectors can be adapted), and response time, I find no reason to think that there will be tuning issues. If issues arise, they'll likely be from non-tuning scenarios. I also agree that like tuners on NAM have said, JCW units are barely an upgrade, considering most people here run 1.5 times the stock boost, and have increased air flow via intake & exhaust. My WRX came stock with 440cc's, and at 227chp & 14 psi from a smaller turbo, the injectors were running ~90% IDC. Even with 380's being at the limit, once we nail down the final few firm specs about them, we can find suitable larger injectors in the 400-500cc range.

 

I hate to thread jack so much, BUT, I'm going to. We can make an injector thread later on if need-be.

I spoke with someone at USRT today, and he explicitly told me a few things:

1) They have in the past supplied Helix with "their" 380cc injectors, and these are in fact the Genesis 380cc units. There are a few iterations out there, but all "Genesis 380cc" units are suitable for our cars. He didn't do this maliciously in any sort of attempt to cut Helix's business; I sort of tricked him into saying it.

2) As I suspected, he also said that essentially any injector proven to work well on small port 1.8T VW/Audi motors (engine codes AWP, AWW, AWD) will work for our cars as well. He's familiar with our motors, and the biggest possible issue you could run into is needing spacers, which is nothing really, and a $5.00 fix.

This means that all of the following will work for our cars:

380cc @ 3bar / 410cc @ 3.5bar : http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...products_id=81

415cc @ 3bar / 440cc @ 3.5bar : http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...products_id=83

500cc @ 3bar / 535cc @ 3.5bar : http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...oducts_id=1698 *Note: Even though this particular set is a "single cone" spray, the cone is so wide and so well
atomized, that is poses no issue with multi-port head motors. Where you run into issues is with narrow single cone and pencil spray injectors.

550cc @ 3bar / 590 @ 3.5bar : http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php...roducts_id=100

The list goes on, all the way to 1000cc.

3) He also confirmed my suspicions that injectors from, or for, Volvo 5 cylinder turbo motors (20valve, 5 cylinders = 4 valves per cylinder) will work as well, seeing as though they'll also have a suitable spray pattern. I'll come back to this later.

4) The last thing we spoke about was if it is in fact an industry standard to refer to an injector by it's flow rate @ 3bar. He agreed that it most certainly is. He explained that while he doesn't have a spec sheet for JCW or base R53 injectors, he is very confident that when they say 330 or 380, they are claiming that rate at 3bar, not 3.5 bar.

5) There are other Siemens 380cc injectors out there, but no longer in production. There is a video of these units on the USRT web site, which shows how they atomize compared to others. The USRT rep said these work very well on the small port 1.8t, and would also work well for us. I can furnish the part# for those if people are interested

 

winninnggggggggggggggggggggggggg

 

Cool. This is exciting news. I was out at salvage yards today looking at different vehicles just to see what the injector housings looked like.

Also with the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5 bar what would the factory supplied JCW 380cc injectors come out to at 4.0 bar?

 

I am very happy that everyone is finally getting together and working on this, as I have been looking for suitable replacements for some time, I was told over and over that it could not be done, but all the head makers are using some replacement injectors as big as 550cc. And I absolutely HATE the seller on the bay that are selling nothing more than drilled units, absolute CRAP!

We will have to make a sticky when this is done with Brand, Model, Part Numbers so that others can get inexpensive upgrades.

Now the next thing that needs to be worked on is the flash tuning, lets be honest some of our cars are getting to the 10 year old point, and there is a lot of tunes out there and reader / writers have even been cloned now. It can not be that hard to get a copy of the JCW tune and make whatever changes to it need to be done to make it work on another car.

I know its not a totally custom tune but it is one that is well within safe limits for those of us that have added the injectors and a pulley, as some of the local dealers do not want to do the Flash and the ones that do sometimes want a STuPiD amount to do the Flash.

 

A 380cc injector that flows 380 @ 3bar, will flow 440cc @ 4bar.

 

I don't want to rain on anyone's fun or parade, but I already have several spreadsheets full of OE injector data including outline, static flow, dynamic flow, connector style and coil resistance. I won't publish the complete list because it is company data, but I will be happy to pair up flow/spray pattern/connector to any request. No need to comb through junk yards and catalogs. It's already been done.

 

Well without giving out 'company data' why dont you make a new list for us here of the units that we would care about, the criteria that we need has been discussed, it should be easy to make a new file pertaining to the injectors that are of the:

• spray pattern that we want
• in the cc range
• correct connector
• correct size (length)

 

ignitionmodule: right now Im only interested in knowing what the factory JCW 380cc 3.5 bar injectors changing out fuel reg. to a 4.0 bar.

I'd really like to learn the true boundaries of the factory installed JCW 380cc injectors. And what is the next best replacement size up from the factory 380cc. Such as the 380 was for the 330cc. I mean I would think there would seem to be some sort of logic in steps with injector gaps per power range.

Later I will be adding my exhaust, a cam, and bigger valve head. There will be some other items I am still considering. I do not 1/4mi race. I enjoy canyon carving and tracks.

 

Since you asked so politely and I drive a second gen car, all I need are specific data and I can provide part numbers. What spray? What flow (the industry standard is g/m but can easily be converted to a volumetric rate)? What connector (Amp, US car, Denso)? What length (or just the injector nomenclature EV6 short/long, EV14, Multec, etc).

I work for a living and will be happy to take a few minutes to provide part number matches to specific injector parameters. What I won't do is comb through and piece everything together.

 

I can probably find a similar flow curve to give you an idea of how the response changes with pressure. Let me see what I can come up with.

Do you have the mfr and part number for the JCW injector?

 

Raven: I just posted this above: Any injector that flows 380cc @ 3bar will flow 438cc(440) at 4bar. The method to figure is as follows:

Divide the new pressure by the old pressure. Next, take that result and find the square root of it. Finally, multiply the found square root with your injector size in CC's. The final result is your new flow rate in CC's.

Regarding your questions about the usefulness of JCW or other 380cc's operating at a higher than stock fuel pressure; I see no harm in running a AFPR at 4bar to increase flow, but you will eventually hit a limit by just increasing pressure.

In terms of "what's next?", I say the Genesis 415cc units would work great for you, based on future goals. These run 415cc @ 3bar, and 440cc @ 3.5bar.


Ignitionmodule: You're not raining on anyone's parade, so don't worry. Additionally, factory spec sheets for Bosch, Lucas, Accel, Bendix, Nippon, Delphi, MSD, etc...are available to all of us already; god bless the internet. The only issue is that I can't find one for JCW and base R53 units; Please furnish them if you know it/them.


Regarding some of your questions:

-The R53 comes with a 15 degree twin beam spray pattern injector. With this said, we can deviate slightly by going 20 degree dual cone, or even one single very wide cone w/ good atomization. Pencil spray or single narrow beam should be avoided at all costs. RMW's first 440cc offering was pencil spray pattern, built for heads that only have 1 intake valve per cylinder. The result was multiple people blowing motors and dangerous misfires.
-The connector on the R53 is a Jetronic connector, but our harness side can be adapted to USCAR, as this is the most common other type of connector being produced.
-EV14, E12, EV6, EV1, etc; these aren't body lengths, they're styles or iterations of injectors. Generally speaking, each one comes in multiple lengths, EV14 varying the most and being the newest iteration from Bosch.
-Siemens Deka makes both the base R53 and JCW injectors. The base R53 injector part# is 1521390 . The JCW injector part# is 0391511. These numbers are on the injectors themselves. Add a "1353" prefix to each part #, and that's the MINI / BMW part#. Whether or not there is another part# on the injector that Siemens uses internally is still unknown. Someone should look.
-Length of the base R53 injector is 68mm total and about 54mm between O-rings. I assume the same for JCW.


Lastly, I'll say this: We keep acting like we have to guess about this stuff. To an extent, we do, but not nearly as much as we are. There are resources out there whom are happy to help. Injector Dynamics, RC Engineering, Witchhunter, Deautch Werks, USRT, etc. All of these guys are fueling systems professionals with applied experience. I've been doing this stuff for 13 years, and I've never been turned away by a reputable company for just asking questions. I just wrote Siemens Deka, requesting full spec sheets for both injectors


As a side note: I just remembered that the R53 has a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. What this means, is that as the engine sees boost from the supercharger, the fuel pressure increases. I have seen members (i'll try to find posts) who measured fuel pressure on the R53's fuel rail at high RPM / WOT conditions, and showed that the rail pressure in that environment is reading ~60psi (just over 4bar). This brings up a few questions for me. 380cc's at 4bar = 440cc, as stated previously. How can the IDC be approaching 100% with that much flow up top ? Can anyone supply a log that shows IDC during a dyno run ?

 

Years ago....Dinian did this with the stock S injectors....required a reflash of the computer to run right. Not sure how much info us still around, but they replaced the pressure regulator...the story goes(been told at many mini events, podcasts, etc) they had an early s that unknown to them had a bad fuelfump...after having issues tuning, they modified the fuel system....started selling the system as their top kit....
It was an impressive kit...was basicly a jcw210 kit...when the JCW was still a 200.
Mini even let dinian start to sell kits IN DEALERS, with them taking care of future warrenty issues....the partnership was need after mini deemed dinian unresponsive to many warrenty claims....they subsequently ended the r53 program, and stopped development on the gen2 cars....

 

Part numbers help. I'll look and see what we have available when I get freed up - maybe tomorrow.

You are correct that static flow follows the square root of the pressure ratio but it will depart from this under dynamic flow conditions. We have a few plotted curves here illustrating this that I will get posted in the next few days.

Probably just a difference of industry terminology here but when I talk about injector outlines, basically the brand/style injector, that automatically gives me the height. An assumption on my part. The SMP injectors for EV6/EV14/Deka are all essentially the same mechanism, just a different length inlet tube and different plastic mold around the part.

The old Lucas disc injector is still here and still a very good injector but limited to a single cone spray. The SMP EV1 copy is a production line purchased from Dana and is a terrible product, which is why I am currently working on a project to fit our G injector internals into that outline.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am assuming the gen 1 mini could run 4 injectors of a different style (say 10mm longer) by adding a 10mm spacer under the fuel rail mounts? O-ring OD's are common to most of these injectors and we have done this exact thing here just to look at driveability issues before we committed to a new injector outline. That would likely open up options if it is feasible on the Mini.

 

Sure, the dynamic flow will change, but if you're replacing like-for-like injectors (Ex: 380cc JCW for 380cc Genesis) with the same response time, at the same fuel pressure, they should only have very negligible differences in dynamic flow rates, right ? It's always worth looking at.

You most certainly can run taller injectors by using spacers. Where we run into issues is with top-mount intercooler mounting and interference. I'd like to figure out just how much room we actually have to play with. In a previous post, I supplied R53 injector overall body length and O-ring to O-ring length in MM, to assist with this; 68mm total, and about 54mm between O-rings. By industry standards, this is "standard size", I'm told by CDL Enterprises, a Siemens Deka supplier.

 

Attached is a comparison of dynamic flow for a 160lb/hr injector at differing fuel pressures to give you an idea of what happens. It will vary by injector based on a couple of parameters but the big one is spring rate, which is partly how dynamic flow is set.

Sorting through several injectors (I picked 190g/min at random) I can see a range of 4.81mg/pulse up to 6.41mg/pulse (0.01lb/pulse - 0.014lb/pulse). About a 40% difference, which would throw off the idle for sure if you just replaced the two extremes.

Normal flow variation is expected to be around +/- 5% so in the case of the Genesis injectors, either someone did their homework or just got lucky.

 

So, hold on a sec, all 4 injectors on that graph are 160lb/hr units, but each with minor variances, one of which being return spring pressure ? I'd be interested to know the other variances; I've never heard of return spring pressure creating such significant variances in injectors of identical flow and response.


USRT, when making their Genesis injectors, uses a factory "parts bin" type construction. Using new and OEM parts, they construct custom injectors optimized for certain applications. There are only one or two injectors on their site that are simply relabeled OEM "take-offs". They do a good bit of research along the way, as fueling is mission critical in safe tuning & modding. Scott @ USRT assured me that what's good for the small port 1.8T, is also good for us. This again opens many doors for injectors, all but Genesis 380cc, JCW 380cc, and Siemens 9267 (discontinued) 380cc requiring post installation tuning.

I was looking at a few threads where a Motoring Alliance member with 15% pulley and I/H/E was logging his Air:Fuel ratio with an Innovate LC1 wideband. He was running base R53 injectors with the above mods, and saw 11.2-11.4 Air:Fuel ratio at WOT & 6500rpm. That's a lovely ratio; safe but powerful. I used to tune my cars for 11.5 AFR. He then installed the "Helix 380cc", which we now know is Genesis 380cc, and logged those with the same mods. He was getting 10.2-10.5 with them installed and untuned. That's actually richer than I'd like, but still safe for the cats. This means to me that a tuned 380cc set with similar mods should have room to grow and a very acceptable injector duty cycle.

I rambled again, didn't I ?

 

The Injectors that come from BMW are part number 13530391511 with 1581 stamped on them.

 

I put both R53 injector part#'s in post #87.

 

I saw them, just very busy at work (its OE customer crunch time) and finding out if we have that data will take some extra roaming around.

 

Looks like I run into a minor issue

The adapter on my genesis injectors are slightly too big for the stock harness, they'll go in just really tight..... I have one in and it looks like its going to be stuck there...

I'm taking a break for now but Any suggestions? Could I sand a bit and use some lube on them ?

Or should I just go ahead and shove them in.... I just don't think they'll ever come out with out gorilling then off and breaking something

 

Also I think I might have intercooler clearance issues

 

I just drop of oil on the orings.. should slid right in after that.

 

Got them in its idling but it sounds rough and looks like I have a cel

Ya not sure what it is yet but it sounds like a Subaru wrx

 

What size and what brand of injectors did you end up installing?