Drivetrain UNIchip vs. GIAC?
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
>>Any news on GIAC?
I've talked to Eric at Helix13 and there are things happening with the GIAC. He was not at liberty to say but I think it will be something good. No official details yet. I will have to be patient for the time being and let them finish their work. They have not forgotten about us.
I've talked to Eric at Helix13 and there are things happening with the GIAC. He was not at liberty to say but I think it will be something good. No official details yet. I will have to be patient for the time being and let them finish their work. They have not forgotten about us.
any word on how long it'll take for the GIAC to be available with the same features as their chips for VW/Audi cars? i saw on a website that the GIAC chips come with keyfobs to switch between 4 different maps (valet,stock,street,race). this is a key point as to why i'll happily wait for GIAC, along with the fact that some of the country's top tuners and shops swear by GIAC and well-heeled owners even turned to GIAC to federalize their precious Porsche 959s.
1st Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
>>any word on how long it'll take for the GIAC to be available with the same features as their chips for VW/Audi cars? i saw on a website that the GIAC chips come with keyfobs to switch between 4 different maps (valet,stock,street,race). this is a key point as to why i'll happily wait for GIAC, along with the fact that some of the country's top tuners and shops swear by GIAC and well-heeled owners even turned to GIAC to federalize their precious Porsche 959s.
In other words, that offering was market-driven. Considering how few options there are available for the mini, and how limited the scope of the research (apparently), i would highly doubt GIAC would come up with the 4-program switching capability that the VW/Audi cars have.
>>GIAC did that because APR beat them to the punch... with APR offering a program doing that, GIAC had to do that as well to keep business.... (the ENTIRE VW/Audi group was heading towards APR at that point).
>>
>>In other words, that offering was market-driven. Considering how few options there are available for the mini, and how limited the scope of the research (apparently), i would highly doubt GIAC would come up with the 4-program switching capability that the VW/Audi cars have.
that's a bummer, either way i'm still gonna wait. but i also remember Eric@Helix saying that this feature was going to be available in one form or another.
>>
>>In other words, that offering was market-driven. Considering how few options there are available for the mini, and how limited the scope of the research (apparently), i would highly doubt GIAC would come up with the 4-program switching capability that the VW/Audi cars have.
that's a bummer, either way i'm still gonna wait. but i also remember Eric@Helix saying that this feature was going to be available in one form or another.
1st Gear
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
well if he does that would be great.... only one concern: when you add a feature like that, you usually lose another feature... for instance in the VW/Audi crowd, i think (don't remember exactly) that the program switching abilities was on the cruise control stalk, so that functionality was lost IF this program was loaded.... again, not sure if it was cruise control or something else, but i know something significant was lost.
are you prepared to make that sacrifice on your mini? if the GIAC is not a stand-alone unit, and is simply a re-flash, in order for what you suggest to work you would have to sacrifice another funtion somewhere.
Its times like these that AMD's one-click comes in advantage.... with two maps on that program, you can keep a stock/AMD version, or AMD/Webb, or AMD/GIAC..... and that doesn't lose any functionality. Of course you'd have to purchase 2 ECU modifications for that....
are you prepared to make that sacrifice on your mini? if the GIAC is not a stand-alone unit, and is simply a re-flash, in order for what you suggest to work you would have to sacrifice another funtion somewhere.
Its times like these that AMD's one-click comes in advantage.... with two maps on that program, you can keep a stock/AMD version, or AMD/Webb, or AMD/GIAC..... and that doesn't lose any functionality. Of course you'd have to purchase 2 ECU modifications for that....
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,359
Likes: 1
From: New Jersey
well if he does that would be great.... only one concern: when you add a feature like that, you usually lose another feature... for instance in the VW/Audi crowd, i think (don't remember exactly) that the program switching abilities was on the cruise control stalk, so that functionality was lost IF this program was loaded.... again, not sure if it was cruise control or something else, but i know something significant was lost.
are you prepared to make that sacrifice on your mini? if the GIAC is not a stand-alone unit, and is simply a re-flash, in order for what you suggest to work you would have to sacrifice another funtion somewhere.
are you prepared to make that sacrifice on your mini? if the GIAC is not a stand-alone unit, and is simply a re-flash, in order for what you suggest to work you would have to sacrifice another funtion somewhere.
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 540
Likes: 1
From: Calabasas, Los Angeles
I have a modified MCS. Do you really think I care about my cruise control??? I used it twice in 41k miles mainly just to see if and how it works on the MINI. And I drive about 125-150 miles a day. I didn't buy this car for "cruising".
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
From: Central Pa
I just had my son's 2004 GTI done this last weekend with the APR-he lost nothing
but he gained a lot :smile:
He drove from Boston to the big town of Campbelltown Pa , to the VW meet to have it installed and it was a blast to drive home
All we need is someone to get on the stick and get this thing finished
but he gained a lot :smile:
He drove from Boston to the big town of Campbelltown Pa , to the VW meet to have it installed and it was a blast to drive home
All we need is someone to get on the stick and get this thing finished
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
>>I hope I'm not too old to drive when the GIAC chip is finally available!
>>
19 months working on it.
Anyway, what will be the effect with the GIAC and the new '05's coming out and their redesigned ECU? I am very curious. A large percentage of the people who were in the market for a chip, have probably already bought one. That leaves the GIAC for the diehards that are left and the future customer base. If the future customer base are getting the new tweaked ECUs, then the current GIAC is only for the diehards that are still holding out for the chip. This is a pretty small group of people. Will GIAC spend the time and effort to modify the chip for the '05's? I am assuming that the sales will probably be small for the GIAC until they modify the settings. But if sales looks small and they have invested 19months in the chip work, will they be willing to invest the time for a new design? Will it take another 6 months. I am curious. I am in the process of getting rid of my '03, so I am not in the market for the GIAC, but I have ordered an '05, but I am concerned that all the ECU's out there will not have the same bang for the buck or may not work with the new ECU's. I was still holding out for the GIAC, but I am wondering what the future holds, not only for GIAC but the other chip makers. I only brought up the GIAC, because I was holding out for the results, and the fact that it has been under development for nearly two years and it is on a chip platform that will be out of date in 60 days. Any one have any ideas?
>>
19 months working on it.
Anyway, what will be the effect with the GIAC and the new '05's coming out and their redesigned ECU? I am very curious. A large percentage of the people who were in the market for a chip, have probably already bought one. That leaves the GIAC for the diehards that are left and the future customer base. If the future customer base are getting the new tweaked ECUs, then the current GIAC is only for the diehards that are still holding out for the chip. This is a pretty small group of people. Will GIAC spend the time and effort to modify the chip for the '05's? I am assuming that the sales will probably be small for the GIAC until they modify the settings. But if sales looks small and they have invested 19months in the chip work, will they be willing to invest the time for a new design? Will it take another 6 months. I am curious. I am in the process of getting rid of my '03, so I am not in the market for the GIAC, but I have ordered an '05, but I am concerned that all the ECU's out there will not have the same bang for the buck or may not work with the new ECU's. I was still holding out for the GIAC, but I am wondering what the future holds, not only for GIAC but the other chip makers. I only brought up the GIAC, because I was holding out for the results, and the fact that it has been under development for nearly two years and it is on a chip platform that will be out of date in 60 days. Any one have any ideas?
dgszweda1,
i fully agree with you on this. making us wait this long definitely killed off some of their business opportunities already. but, being that the '05 have an ECU "tweak" worth only about 7 hp, wouldn't GIAC already be that far ahead of the game because he's spent all this time going through these ECUs and studying them? if the new '05s have essentially the same ECU that '02,3, and 4s have (which i assume they do) with just slightly different programming, GIAC should be able to make chages fairly quickly and easily, no?
i fully agree with you on this. making us wait this long definitely killed off some of their business opportunities already. but, being that the '05 have an ECU "tweak" worth only about 7 hp, wouldn't GIAC already be that far ahead of the game because he's spent all this time going through these ECUs and studying them? if the new '05s have essentially the same ECU that '02,3, and 4s have (which i assume they do) with just slightly different programming, GIAC should be able to make chages fairly quickly and easily, no?
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,359
Likes: 1
From: New Jersey
if the new '05s have essentially the same ECU that '02,3, and 4s have (which i assume they do) with just slightly different programming, GIAC should be able to make chages fairly quickly and easily, no?
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
>>dgszweda1,
>>
>>i fully agree with you on this. making us wait this long definitely killed off some of their business opportunities already. but, being that the '05 have an ECU "tweak" worth only about 7 hp, wouldn't GIAC already be that far ahead of the game because he's spent all this time going through these ECUs and studying them? if the new '05s have essentially the same ECU that '02,3, and 4s have (which i assume they do) with just slightly different programming, GIAC should be able to make chages fairly quickly and easily, no?
discodan,
I am not sure if they can make changes easily. It depends what Mini has changed. Have they changed the tables or the core programming. My guess is that they changed the tables. Since all of the ECU tuners are only changing the tables, since only Siemens has the ability to modify the core programming (i.e. logic, algorithms, sampling rate....), and the limit of the ECU tweaks appears to be in the 10hp range (i.e. Shark gives about 3hp, AmD about 8hp, EVOTech about 8hp, WebbPowerchips 8-15hp, Unichip????, GIAC a claimed 10-13hp), then the 7hp that Mini has tweaked means that these chips are only good for the difference. This is true if only the tables are modified. If the core logic was modified (which I doubt will change the power rating much), then the tables in the aftermarket ECU's may not be very valid and more testing would need to be performed to ensure A/F ratios are correct.....
>>
>>i fully agree with you on this. making us wait this long definitely killed off some of their business opportunities already. but, being that the '05 have an ECU "tweak" worth only about 7 hp, wouldn't GIAC already be that far ahead of the game because he's spent all this time going through these ECUs and studying them? if the new '05s have essentially the same ECU that '02,3, and 4s have (which i assume they do) with just slightly different programming, GIAC should be able to make chages fairly quickly and easily, no?
discodan,
I am not sure if they can make changes easily. It depends what Mini has changed. Have they changed the tables or the core programming. My guess is that they changed the tables. Since all of the ECU tuners are only changing the tables, since only Siemens has the ability to modify the core programming (i.e. logic, algorithms, sampling rate....), and the limit of the ECU tweaks appears to be in the 10hp range (i.e. Shark gives about 3hp, AmD about 8hp, EVOTech about 8hp, WebbPowerchips 8-15hp, Unichip????, GIAC a claimed 10-13hp), then the 7hp that Mini has tweaked means that these chips are only good for the difference. This is true if only the tables are modified. If the core logic was modified (which I doubt will change the power rating much), then the tables in the aftermarket ECU's may not be very valid and more testing would need to be performed to ensure A/F ratios are correct.....
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,359
Likes: 1
From: New Jersey
Since all of the ECU tuners are only changing the tables, since only Siemens has the ability to modify the core programming (i.e. logic, algorithms, sampling rate
Another thing to consider - JCW has a "tweaked ECU" yet through dyno testing, it's shown not to really increase power at all. Why would a standard S get a better "tweak" than the JCW? Maybe the new exhaust really is more efficient and free-flowing. That could definitely give 7hp and 5lbs of torque alone. If the new ECU does give more power I'd really doubt it's more than 2-3HP. Just something to consider...
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
Greatgo,
I am really curious what "rewrite the entire chip" means from GIAC. I have heard it as well. My initial take is that they are rewriting all of the tables, whereas most manufacturers are rewriting the tables that they modified. I would think that Siemens would have had the core programming protected. That was my understanding on why it took so long to fix the stumble. Mini couldn't fix it, but Siemens had to do it. If Siemens can only do it, I doubt that GIAC can get to it. I may be totally wrong. I am really curious what is going on and how the chip development works.
Secondly, you may be right about the ECU not providing much hp. I originally stated this because most of Mini's literature wording kind of indicates that the extra power is from the ECU. No mention of the gearing, exhaust or SC causing the extra power, but that the "ECU modifications result in the increased power".
My question is not just directed at the GIAC, since I think all chips will encounter the same problem, if my thinking is correct.
I am really curious what "rewrite the entire chip" means from GIAC. I have heard it as well. My initial take is that they are rewriting all of the tables, whereas most manufacturers are rewriting the tables that they modified. I would think that Siemens would have had the core programming protected. That was my understanding on why it took so long to fix the stumble. Mini couldn't fix it, but Siemens had to do it. If Siemens can only do it, I doubt that GIAC can get to it. I may be totally wrong. I am really curious what is going on and how the chip development works.
Secondly, you may be right about the ECU not providing much hp. I originally stated this because most of Mini's literature wording kind of indicates that the extra power is from the ECU. No mention of the gearing, exhaust or SC causing the extra power, but that the "ECU modifications result in the increased power".
My question is not just directed at the GIAC, since I think all chips will encounter the same problem, if my thinking is correct.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
Greatgo,
I am really curious what "rewrite the entire chip" means from GIAC. I have heard it as well. My initial take is that they are rewriting all of the tables, whereas most manufacturers are rewriting the tables that they modified. I would think that Siemens would have had the core programming protected. That was my understanding on why it took so long to fix the stumble. Mini couldn't fix it, but Siemens had to do it. If Siemens can only do it, I doubt that GIAC can get to it. I may be totally wrong. I am really curious what is going on and how the chip development works.
Secondly, you may be right about the ECU not providing much hp. I originally stated this because most of Mini's literature wording kind of indicates that the extra power is from the ECU. No mention of the gearing, exhaust or SC causing the extra power, but that the "ECU modifications result in the increased power".
My question is not just directed at the GIAC, since I think all chips will encounter the same problem, if my thinking is correct.
I am really curious what "rewrite the entire chip" means from GIAC. I have heard it as well. My initial take is that they are rewriting all of the tables, whereas most manufacturers are rewriting the tables that they modified. I would think that Siemens would have had the core programming protected. That was my understanding on why it took so long to fix the stumble. Mini couldn't fix it, but Siemens had to do it. If Siemens can only do it, I doubt that GIAC can get to it. I may be totally wrong. I am really curious what is going on and how the chip development works.
Secondly, you may be right about the ECU not providing much hp. I originally stated this because most of Mini's literature wording kind of indicates that the extra power is from the ECU. No mention of the gearing, exhaust or SC causing the extra power, but that the "ECU modifications result in the increased power".
My question is not just directed at the GIAC, since I think all chips will encounter the same problem, if my thinking is correct.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
>>Would someone make a list of where I can buy these chips?
>>
>>Unichip - ___
>>Powerchip - webb
>>etc.
>>
>>
>>thanks. I think im going to do the unichip and add a header to finish
>>my ride.
kenchan,
I started drafting a web site to cover these items. I started with the ECU, but have not updated it with the Unichip.
http://www.szweda.com/mini/
>>
>>Unichip - ___
>>Powerchip - webb
>>etc.
>>
>>
>>thanks. I think im going to do the unichip and add a header to finish
>>my ride.
kenchan,
I started drafting a web site to cover these items. I started with the ECU, but have not updated it with the Unichip.
http://www.szweda.com/mini/
Coordinator :: PDX MINI
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,709
Likes: 0
From: PDX
>>Would someone make a list of where I can buy these chips?
>> I think im going to do the unichip and add a header to finish
>>my ride.
Ken, since you already have the Milltek exhaust, pairing it with Milltek header will be perfect. However, as far as hp/torque gain, Unichip at a lower cost will provide a much more noticeable return than the header.
Unichip is available directly from http://www.unichip.us or from Webb. :smile:
>> I think im going to do the unichip and add a header to finish
>>my ride.
Ken, since you already have the Milltek exhaust, pairing it with Milltek header will be perfect. However, as far as hp/torque gain, Unichip at a lower cost will provide a much more noticeable return than the header.
Unichip is available directly from http://www.unichip.us or from Webb. :smile: