Drivetrain 15% Swapped For 19% Pulley - Fun Level Has Increased By More
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
>>thanks dgsweda!
>>
>>so it would kind of be similar (on a different scale) to say that the 15% pulley will decrease life 4% less/slower than a 19% pulley to a motor/charger. (which is minimal).... and by this logic, assuming the car is not going through constant hard driving, a 19% pulley should offer no additional ill-effects over the use of a 15% pulley?
>>
>>cheers
>>-ABT-
ABT,
You are on the right track, although you can't use a general 4% unless it spins 4% faster. I can't remember the ratio. I think if they are driven identically it should be pretty minimal. The only two concerns that I have is that in general the 19% will be much closer to the theoretical limit of the supercharger spin. If you normally like driving at 3,000 rpm in 6th, then the 19% will be spinning faster. At lower rpms I do not think this is a problem. As you get above 6,500 rpm, I think it may be a problem. The new chips designed for the 17% and 19% should lower the redline of the 15% chip back into the 6,700-7,000 rpm. If you continue to hit your car at the redline raised value of 7,200-7,500 that some of these chips have done, then you are exceeding the redline of the supercharger itself. Again, most people will not be doing this. And a few times may not hurt it. The redline is a safety shield calculated based off of failure rates. You just increase the chance of failure hitting above it. This is an overly cautious assessment, and Eaton may have been overly cautious in their redline determination. Just something to keep in mind on using this pulley.
>>
>>so it would kind of be similar (on a different scale) to say that the 15% pulley will decrease life 4% less/slower than a 19% pulley to a motor/charger. (which is minimal).... and by this logic, assuming the car is not going through constant hard driving, a 19% pulley should offer no additional ill-effects over the use of a 15% pulley?
>>
>>cheers
>>-ABT-
ABT,
You are on the right track, although you can't use a general 4% unless it spins 4% faster. I can't remember the ratio. I think if they are driven identically it should be pretty minimal. The only two concerns that I have is that in general the 19% will be much closer to the theoretical limit of the supercharger spin. If you normally like driving at 3,000 rpm in 6th, then the 19% will be spinning faster. At lower rpms I do not think this is a problem. As you get above 6,500 rpm, I think it may be a problem. The new chips designed for the 17% and 19% should lower the redline of the 15% chip back into the 6,700-7,000 rpm. If you continue to hit your car at the redline raised value of 7,200-7,500 that some of these chips have done, then you are exceeding the redline of the supercharger itself. Again, most people will not be doing this. And a few times may not hurt it. The redline is a safety shield calculated based off of failure rates. You just increase the chance of failure hitting above it. This is an overly cautious assessment, and Eaton may have been overly cautious in their redline determination. Just something to keep in mind on using this pulley.
3rd Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
thanks....
i have never driven to the end of a tachometer before in my life, even when drag racing.... no reason to go past where the peak hp lies, and cause undue stress on your motor. for around town driving, and the one-time trip to the track or dyno, a 19% won't hurt then.
great, guess that helps my decision! what is your opinion on my other thread, dgsweda? the one about swapping pullies....
cheers!
-ABT-
i have never driven to the end of a tachometer before in my life, even when drag racing.... no reason to go past where the peak hp lies, and cause undue stress on your motor. for around town driving, and the one-time trip to the track or dyno, a 19% won't hurt then.
great, guess that helps my decision! what is your opinion on my other thread, dgsweda? the one about swapping pullies....
cheers!
-ABT-
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,359
Likes: 1
From: New Jersey
i was wondering if there was some formula or way to calculate the % more duress that the 19% ultimately puts on the engine over the 15%.... and maybe how much % of your charger's lifespan is diminished by going to the 19 over the 15.... is there any way to calculate that? if not, what would you guesstimate?
The 15% will definitely lessen the lifespan of the supercharger since you are revving it significantly faster than stock. We'd love to say that with the extra power we will rev it less but it's not true. The 15% gives the MCS the power that most of us feel it should have came with from the factory. It also gives as much HP as it does torque. Thus to get the full effect out of it, you still need to take it close to the redline. The 19% pulley, however, IMO, WILL NOT decrease the lifespan versus a 15%. I say this because of the following.
1- The 19% really doesn't spin the supercharger much faster than the 15% (like stated, it's one-forth more than the difference between 15% and stock).
2- Because the 19% really gives you a lot more usable torque (up to 8lbs more - 50% of what the 15% gives you over stock) you will rev your MINI less. Honestly. It gives twice the torque as it does horsepower so there is a lot of additional power down low and not much more up high. So you will find yourself keeping it in higher gears, downshifting less and upshifting sooner. And therefore your supercharger will not spin more than if you had a 15%. Thus the 19% will not decrease the supercharger life span any further than the 15% does.
Anyone want to argue that???
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
>>
>>Here's my guesstimate:
>>The 15% will definitely lessen the lifespan of the supercharger since you are revving it significantly faster than stock. We'd love to say that with the extra power we will rev it less but it's not true. The 15% gives the MCS the power that most of us feel it should have came with from the factory. It also gives as much HP as it does torque. Thus to get the full effect out of it, you still need to take it close to the redline. The 19% pulley, however, IMO, WILL NOT decrease the lifespan versus a 15%. I say this because of the following.
>>1- The 19% really doesn't spin the supercharger much faster than the 15% (like stated, it's one-forth more than the difference between 15% and stock).
>>2- Because the 19% really gives you a lot more usable torque (up to 8lbs more - 50% of what the 15% gives you over stock) you will rev your MINI less. Honestly. It gives twice the torque as it does horsepower so there is a lot of additional power down low and not much more up high. So you will find yourself keeping it in higher gears, downshifting less and upshifting sooner. And therefore your supercharger will not spin more than if you had a 15%. Thus the 19% will not decrease the supercharger life span any further than the 15% does.
>>
>>
>>Anyone want to argue that???
Not to argue with you too much. I agree in the fact that the extra power will not require as much "hard driving" as the 15% to maintain the same performance. But as you all know we like to push the car. If you can keep the car at about 500rpm less than you would drive the 15% I agree, but in real life it wouldn't happen. But I do agree in that it probably will not drastically affect the life of the supercharger above the 15%, since the 15% is taking a lot of the wear above the stock.
i was wondering if there was some formula or way to calculate the % more duress that the 19% ultimately puts on the engine over the 15%.... and maybe how much % of your charger's lifespan is diminished by going to the 19 over the 15.... is there any way to calculate that? if not, what would you guesstimate?
>>The 15% will definitely lessen the lifespan of the supercharger since you are revving it significantly faster than stock. We'd love to say that with the extra power we will rev it less but it's not true. The 15% gives the MCS the power that most of us feel it should have came with from the factory. It also gives as much HP as it does torque. Thus to get the full effect out of it, you still need to take it close to the redline. The 19% pulley, however, IMO, WILL NOT decrease the lifespan versus a 15%. I say this because of the following.
>>1- The 19% really doesn't spin the supercharger much faster than the 15% (like stated, it's one-forth more than the difference between 15% and stock).
>>2- Because the 19% really gives you a lot more usable torque (up to 8lbs more - 50% of what the 15% gives you over stock) you will rev your MINI less. Honestly. It gives twice the torque as it does horsepower so there is a lot of additional power down low and not much more up high. So you will find yourself keeping it in higher gears, downshifting less and upshifting sooner. And therefore your supercharger will not spin more than if you had a 15%. Thus the 19% will not decrease the supercharger life span any further than the 15% does.
>>
>>
>>Anyone want to argue that???
Not to argue with you too much. I agree in the fact that the extra power will not require as much "hard driving" as the 15% to maintain the same performance. But as you all know we like to push the car. If you can keep the car at about 500rpm less than you would drive the 15% I agree, but in real life it wouldn't happen. But I do agree in that it probably will not drastically affect the life of the supercharger above the 15%, since the 15% is taking a lot of the wear above the stock.
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,054
Likes: 0
From: USA
>>wow. awesome guys. i'm finding it hard to find a reason NOT to get the 19% now....
>>
>>cheers!
>>-ABT-
Here's one: It will void your warranty.
I want one, too. I'd like a taper bore, so that I could get it on easily.
>>
>>cheers!
>>-ABT-
Here's one: It will void your warranty.
I want one, too. I'd like a taper bore, so that I could get it on easily.
3rd Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: Saratoga NY
>>
>>Here's my guesstimate:
>>The 15% will definitely lessen the lifespan of the supercharger since you are revving it significantly faster than stock. We'd love to say that with the extra power we will rev it less but it's not true. The 15% gives the MCS the power that most of us feel it should have came with from the factory. It also gives as much HP as it does torque. Thus to get the full effect out of it, you still need to take it close to the redline. The 19% pulley, however, IMO, WILL NOT decrease the lifespan versus a 15%. I say this because of the following.
>>1- The 19% really doesn't spin the supercharger much faster than the 15% (like stated, it's one-forth more than the difference between 15% and stock).
>>2- Because the 19% really gives you a lot more usable torque (up to 8lbs more - 50% of what the 15% gives you over stock) you will rev your MINI less. Honestly. It gives twice the torque as it does horsepower so there is a lot of additional power down low and not much more up high. So you will find yourself keeping it in higher gears, downshifting less and upshifting sooner. And therefore your supercharger will not spin more than if you had a 15%. Thus the 19% will not decrease the supercharger life span any further than the 15% does.
>>
>>
>>Anyone want to argue that???
That is a great argument for as far as going through the gears. But, simply put...when in 6th gear your supercharger will be turning more rpms. I'm willing to bet, most people spend more time driving in 6th than they do shifting through the gears. I don't think the wear factor would be great between the 15% and the 19% but, it is likely to be more.
i was wondering if there was some formula or way to calculate the % more duress that the 19% ultimately puts on the engine over the 15%.... and maybe how much % of your charger's lifespan is diminished by going to the 19 over the 15.... is there any way to calculate that? if not, what would you guesstimate?
>>The 15% will definitely lessen the lifespan of the supercharger since you are revving it significantly faster than stock. We'd love to say that with the extra power we will rev it less but it's not true. The 15% gives the MCS the power that most of us feel it should have came with from the factory. It also gives as much HP as it does torque. Thus to get the full effect out of it, you still need to take it close to the redline. The 19% pulley, however, IMO, WILL NOT decrease the lifespan versus a 15%. I say this because of the following.
>>1- The 19% really doesn't spin the supercharger much faster than the 15% (like stated, it's one-forth more than the difference between 15% and stock).
>>2- Because the 19% really gives you a lot more usable torque (up to 8lbs more - 50% of what the 15% gives you over stock) you will rev your MINI less. Honestly. It gives twice the torque as it does horsepower so there is a lot of additional power down low and not much more up high. So you will find yourself keeping it in higher gears, downshifting less and upshifting sooner. And therefore your supercharger will not spin more than if you had a 15%. Thus the 19% will not decrease the supercharger life span any further than the 15% does.
>>
>>
>>Anyone want to argue that???
That is a great argument for as far as going through the gears. But, simply put...when in 6th gear your supercharger will be turning more rpms. I'm willing to bet, most people spend more time driving in 6th than they do shifting through the gears. I don't think the wear factor would be great between the 15% and the 19% but, it is likely to be more.
Former Vendor
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,159
Likes: 17
From: Under your car
Blue:
That dyno chart wasn't presented with the proper disclaimer: This particular comparison wasn't apples to apples: It was BlueMCS's 19% results vs. a file pull from a 15% pullied car. Your results may vary. In fact they will vary. The 19% pulley does NOT produce a 19.1 hp increase over the 15%. Even considering BlueMCS' unusually strong car, the gains will not be anything like 19 peak hp. The dreaded, feared, and much maligned 19% pulley is in fact not a radical change from the beloved, trusted, and universally lauded 15%. The boost levels, intake air charge, supercharger rpm, waterpump load, and torque/power output is not such a significant increase that people are transforming thier Coopers from a reliable daily driver to a high strung nitro-burning funny car. I suspect that over time, the 19% will no longer be the pulley of freaks and maniacs, and be on a majority of pullied cars (probably when some of JLM's competitors follow his lead and get a 19% out, filling the shelves of all MCS vendors).
If we get a free moment to do some before and afters for the 15% and 19% on the same car, same day, I will post them.
That dyno chart wasn't presented with the proper disclaimer: This particular comparison wasn't apples to apples: It was BlueMCS's 19% results vs. a file pull from a 15% pullied car. Your results may vary. In fact they will vary. The 19% pulley does NOT produce a 19.1 hp increase over the 15%. Even considering BlueMCS' unusually strong car, the gains will not be anything like 19 peak hp. The dreaded, feared, and much maligned 19% pulley is in fact not a radical change from the beloved, trusted, and universally lauded 15%. The boost levels, intake air charge, supercharger rpm, waterpump load, and torque/power output is not such a significant increase that people are transforming thier Coopers from a reliable daily driver to a high strung nitro-burning funny car. I suspect that over time, the 19% will no longer be the pulley of freaks and maniacs, and be on a majority of pullied cars (probably when some of JLM's competitors follow his lead and get a 19% out, filling the shelves of all MCS vendors).
If we get a free moment to do some before and afters for the 15% and 19% on the same car, same day, I will post them.
5th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
From: East
Yes, Eric is correct. The baseline was his knowledgable choice of a 15% pulley upgrade. This baseline was beaten to death in prior threads. I was just trying to be responsive to the multitude of pleas for some dyno #'s. Let's all remember that dyno numbers are best used to see the affects of modification on the same car on the same day. Even minor variations in temperature, humidity and even whether the run was the first of last that day can make significant differences in the results. The most interesting thing to me, AND the thing that didn't change that day was the budge and length of the low end torque curve over the 15% pulley. As many others have stated ad nausium, this is the best part. I firmly believe that if you are worried about your warranty or the incremental wear of a 15% vs. a 19% pulley that you should save your money and buy an MC40. You guys don't know what you're missing!
3rd Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
>>>>wow. awesome guys. i'm finding it hard to find a reason NOT to get the 19% now....
>>>>
>>>>cheers!
>>>>-ABT-
>>
>>Here's one: It will void your warranty.
>>
>>I want one, too. I'd like a taper bore, so that I could get it on easily.
>>
a 15% AND a 19% both void the warranty, so if you are definitely going to get one, why does that matter?
>>>>
>>>>cheers!
>>>>-ABT-
>>
>>Here's one: It will void your warranty.
>>
>>I want one, too. I'd like a taper bore, so that I could get it on easily.
>>
a 15% AND a 19% both void the warranty, so if you are definitely going to get one, why does that matter?
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,359
Likes: 1
From: New Jersey
If you can keep the car at about 500rpm less than you would drive the 15% I agree, but in real life it wouldn't happen.
Spinning the supercharger slightly more when at the same speed in same gear will theoretically reduce the supercharger's life. But by what factor? A day? A thousand miles? Maybe...A thousand miles is 10 days to me. I'll take that for the extra smiles for 4 years... 
4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 381
Likes: 0
From: Santa Clara, CA
>>Spinning the supercharger slightly more when at the same speed in same gear will theoretically reduce the supercharger's life.
Waitaminuite. It is even possible to be in the same gear and be at the same speed (mph) with 2 different pullies? Ok below 2800rpm I'll buy it (what with that value thingy and all) but above, the extra boost will produce extra speed wont it?
Waitaminuite. It is even possible to be in the same gear and be at the same speed (mph) with 2 different pullies? Ok below 2800rpm I'll buy it (what with that value thingy and all) but above, the extra boost will produce extra speed wont it?
3rd Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: Lexington Park, MD
>>>>the extra boost will produce extra speed wont it?
Nope - speed is RPM & gear dependent. The extra boost will instead be producing extra power at a given rpm.
_________________
'04 MCS IB/W on order with 16" SSR's wrapped in Yoko's standing by!
Stock 16" V-spokes & run-flats for sale!
Nope - speed is RPM & gear dependent. The extra boost will instead be producing extra power at a given rpm.
_________________
'04 MCS IB/W on order with 16" SSR's wrapped in Yoko's standing by!
Stock 16" V-spokes & run-flats for sale!
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
Blue,
The dyno numbers can only be meaningful when the same dyno is used to run the test on the same car with the same upgrades with only one variable changed- the presence of the upgrade of the pulley from a 15% to the 19%.
It is cheating to slip in a known base pulley, intake, exhaust MCS number of about 170 HP for comparison sake.
So to get your 189.4 HP what is your full set up-
Intake
ECU
Header
Exhaust
Trottlebody
Ignition system
Other
Thanks.
_________________
Send a PM to minihune Mele Kalikimaka & Hau'oli Makahiki Hou!
The dyno numbers can only be meaningful when the same dyno is used to run the test on the same car with the same upgrades with only one variable changed- the presence of the upgrade of the pulley from a 15% to the 19%.
It is cheating to slip in a known base pulley, intake, exhaust MCS number of about 170 HP for comparison sake.
So to get your 189.4 HP what is your full set up-
Intake
ECU
Header
Exhaust
Trottlebody
Ignition system
Other
Thanks.
_________________
Send a PM to minihune Mele Kalikimaka & Hau'oli Makahiki Hou!
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