has a comparison of AMD, Schnitzer, BBR, GGR, Works, Hartge, and Digi-Tec. They also have a write-up on the Hopkirk Cooper that he drove in '64 which is worth picking it up in itself.

I won't spoil the surprise, but the difference between some of the roll-on figures for what are nominally equally powerful engines is a lot more than I would've expected. (At least a half-second difference and often times more for 20-40 times, 40-60 times, etc.)

Since virtually everyone is simply doing intake/exhaust/pulley/ECU it sounds like the ECU tricks are where some of the big differences are coming from.

Jeff

 

I don't think it's just ECU, but more of a function of the realities of aftermarket stuff and real world horsepower. Everyone in the "aftermarket is better" group says you can get 210hp with bolt-ons and an ecu, whereas the JCW only gets 200hp. The question that hasn't been answered is "how do they do this without headwork and a re-worked S/C to tighten up tolerances and get more boost?" The answer, according to EVO, is that they don't, they just say they do. (to be fair to the aftermarket, the difference is probably not as dramatic as the numbers show because a lot of those cars had big heavy wheels and big heavy brake kits, but not big enough and heavy enough to be equal to 20hp).

-early

 

You also have to look at the fact that the JCW car still has to maintain a warantee as well as strict requirements from BMW. (Like the exhaust can't be too loud etc...)

I definately think that there is more to be had than just the JCW kit. It could be a good starting point and I wish they would sell individual components. (mainly the headwork)

Also, don't forget, the new supercharger is really just a 15% reduction pulley. I think the reason it is an exchange is because it's easier and gives it a more OEM look than just replacing the pulley.

Personally I think the JCW kit is a good idea and if it was a factory option I probably would have gotten it but it wasn't and I already had a new pulley so I really didn't see the need for me. Instead I will get a new intake, new exhaust, new headers, new throttle body, new ECU and maybe I'll get the heads port and polished at some point. (as well as all the other non HP mods I plan on doing) Does the JCW car have all of these things? No, that is why the aftermarket has the potential to beat the JCW kit.

Also if you look at the original post, Jeff says:
Hence, that could be where all the power is being made. Does that mean you JCW is a POS? no, it just means that it's not necessarily the best and just because you have ported and polished heads probably only adds up to ~3-4 HP (just a guess) which in the grand scheme of things really isn't that much.

Also if you look at Andy's 1/4 mile database you'll see that there is only one JCW car listed at number 14.

So, to answer your question:
is that you change the pulley to a 15% (or 17% or 19%) smaller pulley and get a new ECU. You don't get more boost with a modified head, you get more flow... You get more boost by modding the ECU.

_________________

 

>You don't get more boost with a modified head, you get more flow... You get >more boost by modding the ECU.

Actually, you get more boost with the pulley. All you can get with the ECU is more or less fuel and/or timing advance.

You are correct that you get more flow with the head, but flow is vitally important to horsepower (even on an artificially aspirated engine). Just look at the BMW M3 that has 110hp (50% increase) with just flow improvements (the increase in displacement is less 10%).

There's no good reason to believe the headwork on the JCW is only good for 3 or 4 hp.

 

>>I don't think it's just ECU, but more of a function of the realities of aftermarket stuff and real world horsepower. Everyone in the "aftermarket is better" group says you can get 210hp with bolt-ons and an ecu, whereas the JCW only gets 200hp.


Yup. SOME of the tuners really exaggerate, and I think one of the exaggerations is the JCW kit. I've seen cars with intake, pulley and exhaust that make 165-168 whp (183-186 crank hp) that are faster than the JCW cars.

 

>>>>I don't think it's just ECU, but more of a function of the realities of aftermarket stuff and real world horsepower. Everyone in the "aftermarket is better" group says you can get 210hp with bolt-ons and an ecu, whereas the JCW only gets 200hp.
>>
>>
>>Yup. SOME of the tuners really exaggerate, and I think one of the exaggerations is the JCW kit. I've seen cars with intake, pulley and exhaust that make 165-168 whp (183-186 crank hp) that are faster than the JCW cars.
>> Seriously, joking aside, the only objective comparitive test I've seen was in EVO and the JCW smoked everything with pulley, chip, exhaust in site. One car with headwork was slightly faster but actually was more than the JCW after labor. I haven't seen any other real side to side tests other than a lot of internet bench/dyno racing. Are there other true tests?

-early

 

Im sure you can find dyno's of members cars here if you do a search. As far as being faster than the JCW's car with approx. 186 hp? How? The JCW has 200 hp and has been tested in various magazines showing this output to be true.

You can definitely get more HP than the JCW car cheaper we all know that. They did headwork which is expensive, probably to be on the safe side and remember they give you the warranty. That is why its worth the money to some.

I am not familiar with this magazine and don't think i have seen it around so more info would be appreciated. Thanks

 

>>I am not familiar with this magazine and don't think i have seen it around so more info would be appreciated. Thanks


In my opinion, EVO is the best auto magazine published right now. Stories have a lot of subjective analysis as well as the objective numbers and the photography is beautiful. It is published in the UK. I can get it at my local Barnes and Noble - not sure where else it's available.

 

Ok, I did a little looking and from what I have seen headwork will probably get you about 10 HP (actual, not claimed). So what you don't think it's possible to get that elsewhere? Helix has a dyno graph on their web page of a K&N intake making 9HP. This leaves you with 1 HP to make up in say the ECU, or maybe you can get a little more out of the headers and exhaust. Or maybe you could chance a 17% or 19% pulley...

Of course you could put a K&N intake on your JCW kit but that might void your warantee

 

No disrespect but..
>>>You don't get more boost with a modified head, you get more flow... You get >more boost by modding the ECU.
>>
>>Actually, you get more boost with the pulley. All you can get with the ECU is more or less fuel and/or timing advance.
>>
>>You are correct that you get more flow with the head, but flow is vitally important to horsepower (even on an artificially aspirated engine). Just look at the BMW M3 that has 110hp (50% increase) with just flow improvements (the increase in displacement is less 10%).
>>
>>There's no good reason to believe the headwork on the JCW is only good for 3 or 4 hp.
<The problem is to my knowledge no one has dyno comparison tested the JCW head against a stock one so we don't know.
Daytona955i wrote, just because you have ported and polished heads probably only adds up to ~3-4 HP (just a guess) which in the grand scheme of things really isn't that much.
< He maybe right, the only MCS head I have been able to inspect hands on thus far was a JCW head at my dealers I haven't gotten to see a stock one yet so don't have anything to compair it to. what I can tell you though is that the only work I could see was done to the exhaust ports, they were cleaned up a bit but it wasn't a major port and polish. The combustion chambers didn't look like they had been touched and the valves appeared to be stock 30mm intake, 25 mm exhaust.
I would like to have both a stock and JWC together to compare maybe my dealer can arrange that. Head mod development is only truly successful on a flow bench and velocity is more important than volume even in a forced induction engine.My original post in this area was totally out of line so I have retracted it. ops:

 

I don't believe this is his chart that shows the hp increase because i have talked to him about it and intakes don't add that kind of hp. I have the Madness intake and barely felt any kind of difference. Just a slighty better throttle response.

Might be a little off topic but i just wanted to let you know you are not going to see 9hp with intake alone, despite what vendors and manufactures so i simply don't believe it.

 

Ok, if you click here or goto http://www.helix13.com/ and navigate to the intake/exhaust and then find the K&N filter and click on it you will see a graph with some text at the top. It says:

DYNORUN 009 Max POWER = 158.7 Max TORQUE = 139.7
DYNORUN 010 Max POWER = 167.6 Max TORQUE = 144.3

167.6 - 158.7 = 8.9

I've talked to Eric as well and his comment to me was that the only intake that made any power (This was before the Alta one came out so I don't know about that one) was the K&N intake. Also 8.9 HP really isn't all that much for an intake, most people just can't justify $285.95 for 8.9 HP.

Though now there is speculation that if you have a 15% pulley (or a shiny new JCW supercharger) that intakes become more effective.
-Chris
p.s. I installed the K&N intake and noticed a bit of power as well as some extra MPG when I drive conservatively (ie. not at WOT all the time)

 

>Indicates to me that you haven't been working on performance automotive >engines long enought to realize how criticle these parameters are... norm

This is a ridiculous assumption from one minor statement. (Roughly equivalent to my assuming that because you spelled critical criticle [sic] that you didn't finish grade school.)

You didn't even read my post. I wrote the above in response to a previous poster who said that the ECU gives you more boost. The S/C isn't controlled by the ECU like the wastegate on a turbo. In fact, all the ECU can do is control fuel injection and ignition timing (and TPS, etc. on more modern cars). It monitors other stuff to control these parameters, but what else can it do? It can't add more boost (except in a turbo), it can't add more air (except with an electronic throttle), what else does it do?

Most chip claims are WAY over-inflated, especially for N/A cars. Timing and fuel can't change hp much unless a parameter is set way off from the factory (it appears the MCS runs rich on stock settings, so leaning it out gives more power).

I have zero experience with the MCS, but that doesn't change the absolute fact that the S/C is mechanically driven off the crank and not controlled by the ECU.

My experience modding cars is related to a lot higher HP Porsches. I built a 1978 930 with 375hp at the wheels (which doesn't mean a whole lot, because dyno's can easily show very different numbers on different days). This HP was a result of better flow tuning with the car and NOT more boost. I stayed with the stock 0.8bar and changed the cam, ported/polished the heads and used a better exhaust and more efficient turbo (for cooler air on compression, not for more boost). This was on the stock intercooler. The adabiatic (now my turn at best guess spelling) efficiency for the K-27-7200 turbo is MUCH higher than the stock turbo and considerably higher than a PD supercharger.

The car must've had some HP because it ran a 12.0 in the quarter at 124mph with 2 degrees of negative camber at the rear wheels (setup for cornering, not dragging). It also ran a 1:39 at road atlanta.

Sorry for the ramble, but you made a pretty outrageous assumption from one minor statement (not an atypical occurence among internet discussions, I've discovered).

Back to the point. How much HP does the JCW head really produce? Seems like no one has tested it, so speculating (on my part or yours) is an excercise in futility. I've got serious doubts that you can get more HP from a K&N filter than from a better flowing cylinder head, but I may be wrong. Stranger things have happened.

-early

 

>>In my opinion, EVO is the best auto magazine published right now.

I totally agree. They have cool pictures too.

 

I don't know if anyone would do a dyno comparison of JCW with the modified head vs JCW with the stock MCS head. It would be kindof silly to do except to show how much HP the modified head gives.

The reality is that most people think Oh, I can get an exhaust, pulley and ECU and get the same power as a JCW. Going to Randy's site I've gathered the following:
Magnaflow: $650
Alta Pulley: $165
Webb Motorsports/Powerchips ECU: $690
Total = $1505 + install.
Now this really isn't going to give you 200HP, no matter what Randy or others will have you believe. However, I'd say it would get you closer to 190HP

Now with $4500+ install for JCW, that leaves you with $2995 left over to get what... 10HP? Think you can get 10HP for $2995? I think so.

Plus, I could even save on installation costs. I can definately install an exhaust myself. ECU would be easy if you already have a laptop... maybe you would need to rent or borrow the cables.

I'd also venture to say that the pulley, exhaust, ECU combo is basically what you are getting with the JCW kit. The only difference is that you also get the ported and polished heads. Does it really cost $3000 to port and polish the heads? I guess that's the big question which I don't have an answer to. Also is ~300 per HP worth it? I think you can do better than that.

 

>>I'd also venture to say that the pulley, exhaust, ECU combo is basically what you are getting with the JCW kit. The only difference is that you also get the ported and polished heads. Does it really cost $3000 to port and polish the heads? I guess that's the big question which I don't have an answer to. Also is ~300 per HP worth it? I think you can do better than that.

This is a great point and really the gist of our discussion. I'm trying to decide whether to go with the JCW or aftermarket. The question is how much HP do you get for each of these "pieces."

We all know the aftermarket regularly inflates even "dyno proven" hp claims. They have to sell.

Here's a quick and dirty calculation for the pulley. Take the stock MC hp and multiply times the boost ratio times the efficiency ratio. What is that about 115* (11psi/14.7psi*.65%) = 170 hp??? That's pretty close, I'm not exactly sure of the stock boost or of the efficiency of the stock PD S/C. Now, we jump the boost by 4psi with the pulley, but our efficiency goes down (spin a PD S/C harder and it becomes even less efficient). Let's guess it drops to about 60% efficiency. Now you've got 115*(15/14.7*60) = 185hp??? So you get about 15hp with the pulley. Which is about what most people claim. So the pulley gets you from 163 to 178.

Then you add about 5 to 8 for the exhaust and you are at 185 or so. Add maybe 5 for the ECU (the ECU will get you more stock due to the overly rich condition, but it's a decreasing marginal return because the boost is going to lean it out some for you without the ECU). So you are at about 190.

Looks like your estimate of about 10 hp for the Headwork is about right. But let's be honest, you aren't going to go from 190hp to 200hp with a K&N air filter. We all know every increment of HP costs more than the last. So what do you really have to do to go from 190 to 200? And is it worth the 3k for the JCW (kinda doubt it).

What I want to know is how are the guys getting 240hp without a LOT more boost?

-early

 

>>>Indicates to me that you haven't been working on performance automotive >engines long enought to realize how criticle these parameters are... norm
>> My original post was totally out of line so I have retracted it... norm
>>This is a ridiculous assumption from one minor statement. (Roughly equivalent to my assuming that because you spelled critical criticle [sic] that you didn't finish grade school.)
>>
>>You didn't even read my post. I wrote the above in response to a previous poster who said that the ECU gives you more boost. The S/C isn't controlled by the ECU like the wastegate on a turbo. In fact, all the ECU can do is control fuel injection and ignition timing (and TPS, etc. on more modern cars). It monitors other stuff to control these parameters, but what else can it do? It can't add more boost (except in a turbo), it can't add more air (except with an electronic throttle), what else does it do?
>>
>>Most chip claims are WAY over-inflated, especially for N/A cars. Timing and fuel can't change hp much unless a parameter is set way off from the factory (it appears the MCS runs rich on stock settings, so leaning it out gives more power).
>>
>>I have zero experience with the MCS, but that doesn't change the absolute fact that the S/C is mechanically driven off the crank and not controlled by the ECU.
>>
>>My experience modding cars is related to a lot higher HP Porsches. I built a 1978 930 with 375hp at the wheels (which doesn't mean a whole lot, because dyno's can easily show very different numbers on different days). This HP was a result of better flow tuning with the car and NOT more boost. I stayed with the stock 0.8bar and changed the cam, ported/polished the heads and used a better exhaust and more efficient turbo (for cooler air on compression, not for more boost). This was on the stock intercooler. The adabiatic (now my turn at best guess spelling) efficiency for the K-27-7200 turbo is MUCH higher than the stock turbo and considerably higher than a PD supercharger.
>>
>>The car must've had some HP because it ran a 12.0 in the quarter at 124mph with 2 degrees of negative camber at the rear wheels (setup for cornering, not dragging). It also ran a 1:39 at road atlanta.
>>
>>Sorry for the ramble, but you made a pretty outrageous assumption from one minor statement (not an atypical occurence among internet discussions, I've discovered).
>>
>>Back to the point. How much HP does the JCW head really produce? Seems like no one has tested it, so speculating (on my part or yours) is an excercise in futility. I've got serious doubts that you can get more HP from a K&N filter than from a better flowing cylinder head, but I may be wrong. Stranger things have happened.
>>
>>-early
Sorry, you are right.......... norm
ops: ops:

 

early: I don't think people are really getting 240HP... can you say exxagerated claims?

Though your calcs for the pulley are about what people have been seeing (14-15 HP for the 15% pulley) and to get even more Helix and others are testing 17% and 19% reduction pulleys in addition to the 15%. I would also expect to see about 190HP from the combo of Exhaust, Pulley (15%) and ECU sofware.

However, the ECU software is still in it's early stages. There are some new ones out and others to follow that look promising. (GIAC/Helix)

Also the header is good for a few more HP... Madness "claims" 15HP but I'd bet it's more like 5-10.

Bored out Throttle body is probably good for about 4-5 HP.

Count the intake for about 5-6 HP

Take account for the fact that HP numbers aren't cumulative and you get my guess of about 15-20HP for adding the header, throttle body and intake... certainly more than 10. So on top of 190, you'd get about 205-210HP. Then do the headwork and 19% pulley and you might get 240... though probably closer to 220.

 

>>I don't know if anyone would do a dyno comparison of JCW with the modified head vs JCW with the stock MCS head. It would be kindof silly to do except to show how much HP the modified head gives.
>>
>>The reality is that most people think Oh, I can get an exhaust, pulley and ECU and get the same power as a JCW. Going to Randy's site I've gathered the following:
>>Magnaflow: $650
>>Alta Pulley: $165
>>Webb Motorsports/Powerchips ECU: $690
>>Total = $1505 + install.
>>Now this really isn't going to give you 200HP, no matter what Randy or others will have you believe. However, I'd say it would get you closer to 190HP
>>
>>Now with $4500+ install for JCW, that leaves you with $2995 left over to get what... 10HP? Think you can get 10HP for $2995? I think so.
>>
>>Plus, I could even save on installation costs. I can definately install an exhaust myself. ECU would be easy if you already have a laptop... maybe you would need to rent or borrow the cables.
>>
>>I'd also venture to say that the pulley, exhaust, ECU combo is basically what you are getting with the JCW kit. The only difference is that you also get the ported and polished heads. Does it really cost $3000 to port and polish the heads? I guess that's the big question which I don't have an answer to. Also is ~300 per HP worth it? I think you can do better than that.>>

If I lived nearby Randy Webb's neck of the woods, I'd probably consider the aftermarket option, but I don't. I'm NOT a wrench and I won't be working on my own MINI, so I want, in one shot, a trouble free ride w/ the zip the JCW gives (according to numerous dependable reviews) w/ the added security of a warranty. If I had a local shop I could really trust to work on my MINI, then if nothing else, the $3,000 or so I saved doing things aftermarket could be put in the bank as security against possible problems no longer covered by warranty. Naturally, affordability is most folks' first concern, but if that were a bit more secondary, then there are other factors to look at. Everything I've read about the JCW refers to the smoothness of the ride- it feels like a stock machine, like the car the S "should" have been. I like that idea, as I don't want a jerky beast under my foot. I AM thinking seriously about Dinan's stage 2 option, much cheaper than the JCW and also w/ fully warranty, but I'll need to see a head-to-head between the two. It seems that Dinan does little to the head, keeps the stock supercharger and relies heavily on throttle body, intake, exhaust, and ECU remap for results. Bring on the dyno's and the real-world comparitive reveiws. I can hardly wait.

 

fms: That's fine, I was just arguing the point that the JCW is better than the aftermarket.

The smoothness you refer to I think has more to do with ECU programming than anything. Most ECU upgrades can be done by anyone (though you may have to put a deposit on a laptop and cable to do the install if you don't already have one) as it's just a matter of plugging the laptop into the OBDII port.

The other option you may want to explore is the possibility of your dealer installing certain aftermarket parts. I've read stories online about people having their dealers install certain aftermarket items.

Also I don't know where you are from but if you live in the Northeast, you always have the option of going to helix, which is another shop which is just as good if not better (in my opinion) than Randy. (They are located in Philadelphia)

Of course if you really want your warantee and you trust your local MINI dealer to do the install then go right ahead and get the JCW kit. In fact if you hold onto it, it might be worth more in the long run because it is even more of a collectors item. Just don't get upset because you don't have the fastest MCS.

 

I can't present any argument one way or the other about what element of the JCW kit is most responsible for the smooth performance re: acceleration, etc., but I'd love to hear a discussion amongst experts on the topic. I think there is a synergy in which the product is a bit more than the sum of it's parts, but I've no data to support this view. You make one of the points I've looked at, which is that the JCW kit may have pretty strong resale value. At any rate, I live in Oregon about an hour and a half from my dealership, so I'm very interested in the most dependable power available, not necessarily the cheapest. The only options I see making sense at this point are the JCW and the Dinan, and I promise I won't be upset if my MINI is not the fastest. I do know that I've never even test driven an S, so when I take delivery of my JCW MCS, I'm pretty sure the speed will be quite enough for me!!

 

If I had to guess why it's so smooth is the ECU programming more than anything.

 

Back to the magazine! What does the artilce say.....

Ive been to every newsstand in LA and cant find the issue!