Drivetrain Water temps about 215F. Is this normal?
#26
01-15-2010, 10:08 PM
My Alta/Prosport water temp gauge is reading 175 in cold weather on highway and 200 in stop and go. 200 is about the highest i've seen. average temp is about 185.
My water temp sender is installed in the M7 hose coupler, -so it's getting direct contact w/ the flowing water.
wonder why mine is running cooler??
My water temp sender is installed in the M7 hose coupler, -so it's getting direct contact w/ the flowing water.
wonder why mine is running cooler??
#27
01-18-2010, 01:45 PM
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LiLReD writes: "...., but what is it about this engine that makes it run more efficient with the hotter temps?"
That''s a key point. Nothing is special about this engine that makes it more efficient at higher temperatures. It is thermodymanic law. Less energy dumped to the radiator = more energy to the wheels - applies to all internal combustion engines.
Of course, there is a temperature limit or we melt our engines. The materials we use to build engines can only take so much. So we have to accept quite a bit of inefficiencies (heat out of the tail pipe, heat dumped to the radiator, heat dumped to the oil cooler etc.)
That''s a key point. Nothing is special about this engine that makes it more efficient at higher temperatures. It is thermodymanic law. Less energy dumped to the radiator = more energy to the wheels - applies to all internal combustion engines.
Of course, there is a temperature limit or we melt our engines. The materials we use to build engines can only take so much. So we have to accept quite a bit of inefficiencies (heat out of the tail pipe, heat dumped to the radiator, heat dumped to the oil cooler etc.)
#28
01-18-2010, 07:54 PM
5th Gear
Yes, the engine runs hotter because more heat from the burning of the fuel goes to moving the piston and less is dumped to the radiator. The amount of heat created depends on how much fuel is burned. Your right foot controls this.
With modern engines the O2 sensor adjusts the fuel injection to make sure the air mixture is correct. More fuel burned = more energy in the form of heat.
Think of it like the size of the fire determines the temperature of the fire in the cylinders. If you want the engine to run cooler to protect it from melting
you dump more heat into the coolant and it dumps the heat via the radiator. The coolant thermostat setting controls this.
The lower the coolant temp the more heat you waste that could go towards making power in the engine (and eventually to the wheels). To compensate for this wasted heat you have to burn even more fuel to get the same amount of usable power from the engine. Therefore, higher coolant temps waste less fuel and provide better gas mileage for a given amount of power.
You have to remember that an internal combustion engine is a device that converts thermal energy - heat - into mechanical energy. The whole point of burning the gasoline is simplly to produce heat. We use this to expand the gases above the piston to move it and turn the crankshaft and some of this energy is dumped to the radiator to keep coolant temps under control.
With modern engines the O2 sensor adjusts the fuel injection to make sure the air mixture is correct. More fuel burned = more energy in the form of heat.
Think of it like the size of the fire determines the temperature of the fire in the cylinders. If you want the engine to run cooler to protect it from melting
you dump more heat into the coolant and it dumps the heat via the radiator. The coolant thermostat setting controls this.
The lower the coolant temp the more heat you waste that could go towards making power in the engine (and eventually to the wheels). To compensate for this wasted heat you have to burn even more fuel to get the same amount of usable power from the engine. Therefore, higher coolant temps waste less fuel and provide better gas mileage for a given amount of power.
You have to remember that an internal combustion engine is a device that converts thermal energy - heat - into mechanical energy. The whole point of burning the gasoline is simplly to produce heat. We use this to expand the gases above the piston to move it and turn the crankshaft and some of this energy is dumped to the radiator to keep coolant temps under control.
#29
01-18-2010, 09:26 PM
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Yes I know what yer right foot does... since I'm being talked to like a third grader, I'm done with this conversation.
To conclude, you are the only person I know in this world that will say a hotter running engine makes more power. I've tuned more bikes on a dyno, seen more cars on the dyno, ran a lot of cars on the track to know that a "cooler" running engine makes more power. And yes, I know there is no perfect temperature for all engines, just depends on application.
To conclude, you are the only person I know in this world that will say a hotter running engine makes more power. I've tuned more bikes on a dyno, seen more cars on the dyno, ran a lot of cars on the track to know that a "cooler" running engine makes more power. And yes, I know there is no perfect temperature for all engines, just depends on application.
#30
01-18-2010, 10:44 PM
Yes I know what yer right foot does... since I'm being talked to like a third grader, I'm done with this conversation.
To conclude, you are the only person I know in this world that will say a hotter running engine makes more power. I've tuned more bikes on a dyno, seen more cars on the dyno, ran a lot of cars on the track to know that a "cooler" running engine makes more power. And yes, I know there is no perfect temperature for all engines, just depends on application.
To conclude, you are the only person I know in this world that will say a hotter running engine makes more power. I've tuned more bikes on a dyno, seen more cars on the dyno, ran a lot of cars on the track to know that a "cooler" running engine makes more power. And yes, I know there is no perfect temperature for all engines, just depends on application.
I'm no physics expert but I'd have to agree with you.While I hear what he's saying about the law of conservation of energy...I've always thought cooler motors tend to make more power. Why do people sell aftermarket thermostats to allow the motor to run cooler?
If a hotter motor = more power, they'd sell thermostats to make then run hotter lol.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the purpose of a radiator is to cool the motor from the residual heat left over from the combustion cycle. Only so much of the "heat" produced from combustion can be transfered to the wheels, the rest is residual and absorbed by the metal components of the motor. Get those components too hot and they stop being effective. Thus coolant flows through the block to alleviate the residual heat to keep the motor in a certain "operating range" where it is most effective.
#31
01-19-2010, 05:03 AM
5th Gear
OK, this is my final post...I'm done.......
The question was why are newer engines running with higher coolant temps. The answer is for higher fuel efficiency. Efficiency is how much power goes to the engine crankshaft verses how much is wasted. How you take this discussion to modding engines for max power eludes me. That's different.
Before the days of the better control of the combustion process now provided with direct injection, variable valve timing, many engines would knock etc. as you tried to squeeze more power out of them. Sometimes when trying to mod an engine you had to accept lower efficiency and had to lower the operating temperature to obtain proper combustion at the higher power output. This is why lower thermostats are sold - genreally for modded engines. Modded engines rarely increase efficiency - that is usually not the point of the mod.
The original question was basically "Why are engine manufacturers running their engines at higher coolant temps?" The reason that higher temps are more efficient is that less energy is lost to the radiator.
The question was why are newer engines running with higher coolant temps. The answer is for higher fuel efficiency. Efficiency is how much power goes to the engine crankshaft verses how much is wasted. How you take this discussion to modding engines for max power eludes me. That's different.
Before the days of the better control of the combustion process now provided with direct injection, variable valve timing, many engines would knock etc. as you tried to squeeze more power out of them. Sometimes when trying to mod an engine you had to accept lower efficiency and had to lower the operating temperature to obtain proper combustion at the higher power output. This is why lower thermostats are sold - genreally for modded engines. Modded engines rarely increase efficiency - that is usually not the point of the mod.
The original question was basically "Why are engine manufacturers running their engines at higher coolant temps?" The reason that higher temps are more efficient is that less energy is lost to the radiator.
#32
01-19-2010, 06:31 AM
The reason for a oem designing a engine to run hi temps is for emission purposes.
The higher the temp(within reason) the easier it is to have consistent combustion temps to control the amount of gases and unburned fuel exiting the exhaust port with a bonus of keeping the cat at peak operating temps and to improve drivablity.
If emissions laws were not in affect the mini engineers would have the water temps in the 160f to 185f range to help ward off preingnition and to make more horsepower.
It takes energy to produce heat,the more heat the greater the loss of power.
The higher the temp(within reason) the easier it is to have consistent combustion temps to control the amount of gases and unburned fuel exiting the exhaust port with a bonus of keeping the cat at peak operating temps and to improve drivablity.
If emissions laws were not in affect the mini engineers would have the water temps in the 160f to 185f range to help ward off preingnition and to make more horsepower.
It takes energy to produce heat,the more heat the greater the loss of power.
#33
01-19-2010, 09:48 AM
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The reason for a oem designing a engine to run hi temps is for emission purposes.
The higher the temp(within reason) the easier it is to have consistent combustion temps to control the amount of gases and unburned fuel exiting the exhaust port with a bonus of keeping the cat at peak operating temps and to improve drivablity.
If emissions laws were not in affect the mini engineers would have the water temps in the 160f to 185f range to help ward off preingnition and to make more horsepower.
It takes energy to produce heat,the more heat the greater the loss of power.
The higher the temp(within reason) the easier it is to have consistent combustion temps to control the amount of gases and unburned fuel exiting the exhaust port with a bonus of keeping the cat at peak operating temps and to improve drivablity.
If emissions laws were not in affect the mini engineers would have the water temps in the 160f to 185f range to help ward off preingnition and to make more horsepower.
It takes energy to produce heat,the more heat the greater the loss of power.
My original comment was just the curiosity that in my experience, stock, modern, emissions governed, computer ran engines don't run that hot to be emissions friendly.
#34
01-20-2010, 11:41 AM
Yes I know what yer right foot does... since I'm being talked to like a third grader, I'm done with this conversation.
To conclude, you are the only person I know in this world that will say a hotter running engine makes more power. I've tuned more bikes on a dyno, seen more cars on the dyno, ran a lot of cars on the track to know that a "cooler" running engine makes more power. And yes, I know there is no perfect temperature for all engines, just depends on application.
To conclude, you are the only person I know in this world that will say a hotter running engine makes more power. I've tuned more bikes on a dyno, seen more cars on the dyno, ran a lot of cars on the track to know that a "cooler" running engine makes more power. And yes, I know there is no perfect temperature for all engines, just depends on application.
Cooler air contains more oxygen, which combined with more fuel (than warmer air) will give you more power.
It all has to do with air density which has greater mass (or weight) at cooler temperatures or lower elevations.
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#35
01-20-2010, 04:56 PM
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#37
01-20-2010, 06:37 PM
#38
05-22-2010, 02:32 PM
Presently I'm beta testing a unit form Edge Products called the Insight CTS, it's got a graphic interface of functions from the OBDII port. Question. My engine coolant temperature runs (when warmed up) between 222 and 227F is that normal? I can set the device to warn me when ECT gets too high, what should I set the warning temperature to be?
#39
05-22-2010, 04:42 PM
#40
05-22-2010, 08:14 PM
Do not forget in the Prince motor that the water pump is not on all the time. It runs on and off it is one of the reasons that the MINI runs more efficiently. It runs at that temp because thats what the engineers deemed it to run at. I don't see what the problem is. Also if you are worried run the heater full blast at as hot as it will go that will seriously drop the temp the a/c should not does this because it makes the car run warmer.
#41
05-22-2010, 11:00 PM
When the car's all up to temp ~220....push the A/C max button. Watch how quickly the coolant temps plummet down to about 165ish.
#43
05-23-2010, 08:48 AM
#44
05-23-2010, 12:20 PM
#45
05-23-2010, 03:08 PM
A few points:
If you don't design EFI maps and emissions for a living, don't mess with the temp. 220 sounds about right. It is under pressure remember. As long as it does not boil. 235 is probably fine, but that sounds like a big bump.
AC puts more load on the engine, and places a hot grid in front of the rad. Usually a secondary fan is used to compensate. Much higher I would wonder if something is not working correctly, like fans.
The temperature the folks who DO design emissions are concerned inside the head where you can't measure it.
Gauges lie like a dog.
Statement on "lean is hot". Yea in 1960 with inadequate cooling, weak ignition, and hand-set carbs. ( Like my old Morgan) Total BS now. Your mixture and temp are ECU controlled.
Comparing a Mini to an M3 is moot. Different cars, different emission systems. If your M is running 175, I would be concerned with THAT car.
If you don't design EFI maps and emissions for a living, don't mess with the temp. 220 sounds about right. It is under pressure remember. As long as it does not boil. 235 is probably fine, but that sounds like a big bump.
AC puts more load on the engine, and places a hot grid in front of the rad. Usually a secondary fan is used to compensate. Much higher I would wonder if something is not working correctly, like fans.
The temperature the folks who DO design emissions are concerned inside the head where you can't measure it.
Gauges lie like a dog.
Statement on "lean is hot". Yea in 1960 with inadequate cooling, weak ignition, and hand-set carbs. ( Like my old Morgan) Total BS now. Your mixture and temp are ECU controlled.
Comparing a Mini to an M3 is moot. Different cars, different emission systems. If your M is running 175, I would be concerned with THAT car.
#47
05-24-2010, 03:59 PM
If I am sitting in traffic at 100 degrees F, bumper to bumper, full AC on and my Mini ever gets hot, I will take it to the dealer and demand it be fixed under "suitability for use" clause. This is not the 19th century. No excuses. By "hot" I mean a temperature the Mini engineers chose to program into the ECU to turn on the temp light.
#48
05-26-2010, 02:49 AM
#49
05-26-2010, 04:23 PM
OK, this is my final post...I'm done.......
The question was why are newer engines running with higher coolant temps. The answer is for higher fuel efficiency. Efficiency is how much power goes to the engine crankshaft verses how much is wasted. How you take this discussion to modding engines for max power eludes me. That's different.
Before the days of the better control of the combustion process now provided with direct injection, variable valve timing, many engines would knock etc. as you tried to squeeze more power out of them. Sometimes when trying to mod an engine you had to accept lower efficiency and had to lower the operating temperature to obtain proper combustion at the higher power output. This is why lower thermostats are sold - genreally for modded engines. Modded engines rarely increase efficiency - that is usually not the point of the mod.
The original question was basically "Why are engine manufacturers running their engines at higher coolant temps?" The reason that higher temps are more efficient is that less energy is lost to the radiator.
The question was why are newer engines running with higher coolant temps. The answer is for higher fuel efficiency. Efficiency is how much power goes to the engine crankshaft verses how much is wasted. How you take this discussion to modding engines for max power eludes me. That's different.
Before the days of the better control of the combustion process now provided with direct injection, variable valve timing, many engines would knock etc. as you tried to squeeze more power out of them. Sometimes when trying to mod an engine you had to accept lower efficiency and had to lower the operating temperature to obtain proper combustion at the higher power output. This is why lower thermostats are sold - genreally for modded engines. Modded engines rarely increase efficiency - that is usually not the point of the mod.
The original question was basically "Why are engine manufacturers running their engines at higher coolant temps?" The reason that higher temps are more efficient is that less energy is lost to the radiator.
. Basic law of thermo that can't be changed. And pilotart is also correct making the point with cold intake air. I might also add that the DI provides a substantial cooling effect which enables the engine to run at higher compression ration (higher efficiency) and most likely also higher running temp than conventional (not DI) engines.
#50
05-26-2010, 11:07 PM
my mini shot from the normal 220 up to 285 in a matter of seconds before i got it shut off 
mini didnt find anything wrong besides no compression in 2 cylinders because of a bad tensioner. and my high pressure fuel pump was bad. thats all they fixed so now my car smokes blue because of how lean it ran and fried all the rings. they didnt even bother to take the head off. /rant on terrible mini dealerships sorry
mini didnt find anything wrong besides no compression in 2 cylinders because of a bad tensioner. and my high pressure fuel pump was bad. thats all they fixed so now my car smokes blue because of how lean it ran and fried all the rings. they didnt even bother to take the head off. /rant on terrible mini dealerships sorry