Can anybody prove that Headers make HP?? with Dyno Charts. I have heard (not naming names) from some well known companys that I called, that Headers don't make or very very little HP (1-1/2) on Mini's.

I just need the proof,

The proof is in the pudding.

 

Without using a free flowing exhaust in conjunction with the header, your gains will be near zero. Air flow resrictions need to be freed all the way back. Randy Webb has done extensive testing of headers, as have many tuners. Results will most likely be a combination of header and exhaust.

 

>>Without using a free flowing exhaust in conjunction with the header, your gains will be near zero. Air flow resrictions need to be freed all the way back. Randy Webb has done extensive testing of headers, as have many tuners. Results will most likely be a combination of header and exhaust.

mobygic-
I have talked to the same source as you about headers and found that there was little proof that headers did much in terms of dyno numbers- but they did not look at London Stainless/Milltek headers which are clearly well built. Even RandyBMC says they are nicely done and likely to be worth some power.

The other point made is important. Consider the whole engine system and not just a component like the headers. You have the intake, the engine, the exhaust headers, and the cat back exhaust system. And if you really think about it, you can even count the rebored throttlebody, the pulley, the ECU and the ignition upgrades/colder plugs as all being part of how things work.

Therefore it should not be a surprise to find that in an otherwise stock car like an MC, Exhaust headers alone may give limited added power. Too many other bottlenecks may mute performance. In a fully modded MCS I would think that unless there was a conflicting mod like a too restrictive cat back exhaust, one should be able to get some gains maybe 6HP to 9HP. Dyno should show this.

I have spoke to owners of MCS that have the Mini mania header with sport cat and they say that it is easy to tell that the header is installed. The noise level is up and the power is up. Those cars also had cold intakes installed but none had ECU or Pulley. One had a street Borla exhaust and the other had a stock exhaust.

 

After recently hearing from an objective tester, we decided to do more testing of the Milltek header.

Originally, we found that the header made an additional 7 horsepower when used with the Magnaflow exhaust.

The last test we did we used the stock exhaust in combination with the Milltek header. When compared to the stock header, the Milltek showed only a gain of 2 horsepower.

Moral of the story, don't do the Milltek unless you have already freed up the path behind it.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Randy

 

>>After recently hearing from an objective tester, we decided to do more testing of the Milltek header.
>>
>>Originally, we found that the header made an additional 7 horsepower when used with the Magnaflow exhaust.
>>
>>The last test we did we used the stock exhaust in combination with the Milltek header. When compared to the stock header, the Milltek showed only a gain of 2 horsepower.
>>
>>Moral of the story, don't do the Milltek unless you have already freed up the path behind it.
>>
>>Let me know if you have any other questions.
>>
>>Randy

Well I guess that pretty much ends that short-lived debate. Thanks Randy, once again you da man.

 

Yep Thank you Randy.

 

Call Charlie at RDR (Rossier Dyno Research). They have done extensive dyno testing on various headers, and have shown no power gain in any configuration. I trust them, they have dyno sheets for each test, and are very honest about what does and doesn't make power.

 

I have hear the same thing from a company that uses the Mustang MD 250 dyno too....... I can see this is going to be a heated topic. ................. Now I am confused....who to believe and who not to believe.

 

Actually, Charlie was the "objective" tester I spoke of, and they prompted me to do the retest using the stock system. That was the only configuration they had done the testing in - they have not tested the Milltek with an aftermarket exhaust of any kind.

Hope that helps!

Randy

 

>>Actually, Charlie was the "objective" tester I spoke of, and they prompted me to do the retest using the stock system. That was the only configuration they had done the testing in - they have not tested the Milltek with an aftermarket exhaust of any kind.

Here's a theoretic question for Randy.
Given a milltek header- using various aftermarket exhausts.
If the magnaflow allows for about 7 HP and the stock exhaust about 2 HP then what about the rest.
What about the Quicksilver? more or less than the magnaflow- just guessing.
Straight through systems might be more? Like the Borla Sport/Race?
What about new systems like the UUC and Alta?

I know you did not or cannot test every combo with the headers but can you comment with educated guesses?

Now for the subjective driver that "thinks" they are getting some sort of boost from a header- well it the noise is greater then you think you are going faster- it is the impression. But then if you think the MINI is faster then there may be value in the "perceived experience". One could argue that is difference between the HK audio and aftermarket custom audio. Both are clearly better than stock but it is a matter of subjective degree.

Another thing about dyno or any kind of testing when you have not controlled all of the variables. If another element in this equation is a crucial one (namely intake) is not controlled for, then anyone doing dyno testing of the header with a stock intake may be limiting any result because you are restricting intake of air in the first place which has an effect on the exhaust output. Just some things to think about whenever you hear about such a discrepency.

Moral of the story. Got a $1000 to spend on upgrades? Get a set of lightweight wheels- it's worth the investment no matter what MINI you have plus you can see wheels and it helps the ride not like the hidden header.

 

Good comments as usual minihune.

Does anyone mind if I vent a little frustration at this whole header fiasco for a minute? (If so then dont bother to read any further :smile: )

I was drawn to the header mod early on because it promised good power without a lot of noise. Furthermore it made that power by relieveing backpressure, which to me seemed very efficient, would be easier on the engine and would probably improve gas milage (depending upon driving habits I suppose).

I really appreciate the work that Randy and other have done in discovering the the Quicksilver / London Stainless / Milltek are all the same, particularly since he could get the milltek for about 400 fewer dollars. But dang it was kind of a headach just to read about, I bet it was really tedious to actually have to sort out.

So tell me, with all this reputable data on hand showing 7hp at best how can a company still claim that it will produce 12hp???!!! Where is the line drawn on false advertising? If I had bought this thing expecting 12 and getting 2 I'd be totally pissed!

So once again I have to thank guys like Randy and Charlie for slogging through the muck to bring us... the truth.

Sorry if that was too long or if I inadvertently offended anyone (I know people are getting kind of sensitive around here)

Peace out,

Chuck

 

>>Good comments as usual minihune.
>>
>>Does anyone mind if I vent a little frustration at this whole header fiasco for a minute? (If so then dont bother to read any further :smile: )
>>
>>I was drawn to the header mod early on because it promised good power without a lot of noise. Furthermore it made that power by relieveing backpressure, which to me seemed very efficient, would be easier on the engine and would probably improve gas milage (depending upon driving habits I suppose).

I think because of the bolt on nature of the exhaust header it is an attractive mod. Also with how headers work in other cars it seems reasonable to look at the entire exhaust system for where gains can be had. Obviously the exhaust system can be broken down into component parts:
The exhaust pipes as they leave the Engine
The sport cat- vs a cat bypass pipe
The long pipe after the cat to the exhaust itself- this pipe can be larger diameter.
And the exhaust system itself- design varies, one vs two muffler design, resonator or not, tail pipe options, and type of bends (mandrel preferably).

Then there are several types of headers with 4-2-1 vs 4-1 primary pipe designs. Plus different pre cats and catalytic converters. Hard to test them all but got to start somewhere.

>>I really appreciate the work that Randy and other have done in discovering the the Quicksilver / London Stainless / Milltek are all the same, particularly since he could get the milltek for about 400 fewer dollars. But dang it was kind of a headach just to read about, I bet it was really tedious to actually have to sort out.

Let the tuners like Randy and others sort out the details and we can help to let them know how much interest there can be for a product. When the smoke all clears, just ask the right people how things look. This is the case right now with the ECU upgrades.

>>So tell me, with all this reputable data on hand showing 7hp at best how can a company still claim that it will produce 12hp???!!! Where is the line drawn on false advertising? If I had bought this thing expecting 12 and getting 2 I'd be totally pissed!
Caveat emptor. Buyer beware. Like anything else we do to mod our MINIs we have to know what are the pros and cons. Does it make sense, how does the mod fit in with the big picture. What am I missing? Who do I trust? If you read enough posts you know generally what is up. If it is still unclear then it is probably still muddy.

If you expect 12 HP from an exhaust header and you get 2 HP then fine. I would not be mad. I will examine how I could get 10 more HP- what would it take. We do this all the time with a stereo upgrade when the improvements are done in increments. Upgrade the speakers x 4. Cost is $600 to $1000. Very small gain. Why- not enough power. Add an amp- plenty of power for $400 to $600. Now you can hear how limited the CD player is. Trash in- trash out. Change out the head unit- $400. Now it sounds really good. But it lacks the deep deep bass because there is no dedicated subwoofer. So add a sub with an amp- adds $600+. Well you can see this is a never ending saga. I could go on and on. Was the decision bad to do the first step. Well no because by the end, the speakers are fine with the help of the sub and the extra amps and good CD player.

Another point is this. At the time the manufacturer was checking the Header they did tests on their dyno that showed up to 12 HP gains. Assuming they were not wilfully making stuff up, they were probably giving high numbers- ideal conditions for the best possible reportable gains. If you were the manufacturer you'd be doing everything you could to report the best numbers. You must realize that dyno numbers are good only for that one instance- that one car, that one test with that single dyno. When you repeat the test using a different car and a different dyno machine under different circumstances you will get different test data. This is the nature of collecting data. The data is the data no matter what you think the data ought to be.


>>So once again I have to thank guys like Randy and Charlie for slogging through the muck to bring us... the truth.

The truth is a relative thing. We have some data but clearly we need a bit more.

>>Sorry if that was too long or if I inadvertently offended anyone (I know people are getting kind of sensitive around here)
No problem. It's always good to think a bit. Sharks don't think before they bite.

 

I raced my GTO and several 5.0 mustangs in the past. The thing to keep in mind, and what I have not seen listed anywhere is this... with headers (and other parts) you are tuning your motor for certain rpm bands. Headers with runners of a certain length and diameter are for high rpm while others give mid range and others give low rpm punch. You can bolt on headers with large perfectly radiused primaries and it may give you great high end improvements, but the low and mid rpm suck, which is what you use on the street and autocross. Same with exhaust... Free flow, large pipe exhaust may not always be what you want. I've seen cars with huge pipes and almost straight through cans, and it fouled up the exhause pulse speed.

My point is don't just go by a statement of "it makes 7hp". Where does it make the hp?? That is why dyno charts at this point are a must. On a motor that has history, such as the Ford 5.0 you can for the most part put a cookbook together as to what works. Being new, the Mini is different. Don't let someone talk you into bolting on something that will not give you anything.

On the other hand, if your factory header is kinked and the collector looks like it was welded up by the first year high school vo-tech... any header would almost be and improvement.

By the way, I just got my MCS a little over a week ago. Does anyone know if the engine is mass air or mapped? I would guess mapped due to all the ECU stuff flying around.

THanks

 

Supersprint -Italy has been making & testing performance headers & exhaust systems for the worlds fastest & most expensive cars since 1950. They make a full line of products for all BMW cars including Coopers and are imported by BMP (ProMini) in Tyler, Texas. The pricing is only a bit above some of the domestic vendors but the product, test data, R&D and consumer feedback is exceptional.
I mention this because the company is often overlooked in discussions about Mini tuning. I have several cars w/ all Supersprint systems & I love the torque gains, build quality & sound (always deep, throaty, agressive but never too loud & always without drone .)

 

>>Supersprint -Italy has been making & testing performance headers & exhaust systems for the worlds fastest & most expensive cars since 1950. They make a full line of products for all BMW cars including Coopers and are imported by BMP (ProMini) in Tyler, Texas. The pricing is only a bit above some of the domestic vendors but the product, test data, R&D and consumer feedback is exceptional.
>>I mention this because the company is often overlooked in discussions about Mini tuning. I have several cars w/ all Supersprint systems & I love the torque gains, build quality & sound (always deep, throaty, agressive but never too loud & always without drone .)

Supersprint (through Promini)is a viable header option. Along with:
London stainless (same source as Milltek)
Mini Mania- with sport cat and without
Cat and Dog Racing -Header- prototype done, delays in production need further time- PM Caddman

Yes the designs will affect midrange vs high RPM power to some degree.
Milltek and London stainless have long track records doing headers and exhaust upgrades for many european cars.
What they offer for the MINI is well designed and excecuted.

Yet another place that has not panned out for upgrades besides the header is the Shrick Cam/ polished heads upgrade. In other cars the cam upgrade matched with other engine upgrades yields noticable improvements but for some reason in the MINI the results have been lack luster for the amount to upgrade cost invested. Sad but true at least for now.
Oh well. Pulley and ECU- come chant with me!

 

I agree with Mark. Super sprint is always overlooked.

I got a SuperSprint CatBack, and have been thinking about the headers. The thing that has stoped me so far is that they say (they being supersprint and BMP) that it is not street legal. The others that have been mentioned (miltek etc) are legal because they use the stock Cat.
So I guess with the proper "tweaking" it could be done.

Louay

 

>>I agree with Mark. Super sprint is always overlooked.
>>

I believe the supersprint requires welding - the Mini Mania appears identical in design & doesn't require welding so it's the smarter choice

 

The headers don't have a cat in them as you can choose to use them in different ways...1) You can cut your existing headers and use the factory cat on them. To do so we provide you with a flange that you would then weld your stock cat onto and will allow for a direct bolt up to the headers. 2) You skip the factory stock cat all together and go with the high flow supersprint metalic cat or 3) You can use the Supersprint cat pipe replacement which essentially replaces the cat with a straight pipe.

The only time any welding is required for the supersprint headers is to weld the stock cat to the provided flange but that is only if you want to maintain the stock cat.

 

>>The only time any welding is required for the supersprint headers is to weld the stock cat to the provided flange but that is only if you want to maintain the stock cat.


Ahhh, makes sense. But for supersprint you still have an MSRP of $695 + ~$150 (guess) for the cat versus $750 for the mania header which includes a cat.

 

You guys are too wrapped up in those peak hp numbers. It's torque that gets you where you're going. FreeAm is right about headers being a compromise for everywhere except their tuned rpm range. Sport Compact Car did a header comparison a couple of years ago on the Integra GSR engine (one of my current cars) and every single one lost torque below 5k rpm. Not good for accelerating out of a corner where you're at the mercy of the gearing. The only improvement in torque for all RPMs was the Extrude Hone'd stock manifold. The GSR exhaust header is cast but with semi-long runners, very similar to the MINI. I would like to see some results for that.

My interest is because the SCCA STS rules don't permit replacement of the cat. And I don't think anyone will invest in developing a shorty header (although they did for the Focus Z-Tec engine.)

Give me torque or give me nothing.

 

>>Give me torque or give me nothing.

word.

 

extrude hone is a rotorooter of a process with no subtlety. It may leave a polished surface and has its place for that use, but it ain't a porting job. the intercooler snoots would be a good place for it, maybe the inside of an already ported manifold.

 

>>extrude hone is a rotorooter of a process with no subtlety. It may leave a polished surface and has its place for that use, but it ain't a porting job. the intercooler snoots would be a good place for it, maybe the inside of an already ported manifold.

I agree that they're just forcing an abrassive aggregate through the runners at a substantial velocity. So. Most aftermarket headers aren't ported, or more importantly, port matched. For the purpose of creating more torque, I have seen better results with extrude hone than from aftermarket headers. The intake definitely benefits from the process too, but that's not SCCA STS legal.

My point is that everyone spends a vast majority of their driving in the lower two-thirds of the rev range yet everyone talks about peaks. If you want performance, look at the total area under the torque and power curves to really see if the mod is worth it. I'll take 3 ftlbs @ 3000 over 10 hp @ 6000 any day.

TTFN.

 

My philosophy is to max the flow in the header and catback plumbing, and then to terminate it with a SuperTrapp for desired tuning...

 

I have the Supersprint header/stock cat/Magnaflow combination. Though it is a loud system, it is wicked torquey! For anyone considering this type of set-up, I would strongly advise getting the metalic cat or thru pipe. I have toasted my factory cat. Holy stinky poo