Hello fellow track enthusiasts! We all know that there is an increased risk of harm (car and occupant) on the track when compared to the road. I have read that many insurance companies will cover a drivers event incident but will then drop the insured. I have been to 2 DE's now, and on the most recent I came much closer to a collision than I would have liked. Does anybody have experience with this kind of situation? Any thoughts? Does anyone know of an insurance company that will cover the car on the track, some sort of racing insurance? I'm sure this would be expensive and have a hefty deductable. I wish I had enough money to write a check for extensive repairs if necessary, but since I don't...I have been very hesitant to attend another event.
Thanks for the help guys.

 

It depends upon the insurance company, and, what level - according to some whispers I've heard - you are participating in; the enrty level DE classes limit or prohibit passing. The advanced classes are essentially races.

Ask your insurance agent what they think is covered and under what circumstances.

In the end, it is a risk.

 

Did you get a day quote for this coverage?

This topic has been talked about in the boston bmwcca events, and in massachusetts, I think DE is generally not covered by many insurance companies anymore. Its hard to ask your company, if you don't want to hear no, and may try and file for a claim later. It is a driver educational event, which theoreticaly would make you better/safer driver on the street, but insurance companies want to limit payouts so why cover an off road situation if they are not required to. I have attended 30+ DE events since late 1990's, and some participants reports have gotten payouts for accidents. I think it is safer at a DE than driving on the highway (at least in Massachusetts/Boston) with a DE controlled environment (point by's, limited passing areas). The real risk is when a driver gets into trouble by overdriving his/her car and hitting a tire barrier or goes way off track in a bad spot.... I still will drive my MINI at the track, which is why I bought it, but miss my 180k+ 1991 BMW which was only worth a few grand at most and if damaged would have been no biggie. My thoughts is drive with you head, and only at 8/10ths... as DE is school... car to car contact is very very rare....

 

You bring up a good point, regarding your high mileage BMW; if one worries too much about one's car, one may actually crash. Or another way of writing the same thing - the guy/gal who polishes his/her car the most will crash.

 

and the one who worries most about getting paint dings will get most dings.... just kidding....

a well run de (at least bmwcca events) should reallly have a looow risk of car to car contact......................

 

Thank you guys. I agree that the risk is low, but I think it is higher than the street. At my last event I was a little too eager to make a pass, putting pressure on the guy in front of me, he had an instructor in the car. I was fed up because I had been right behind him for at least a couple laps and they wouldn't let me by (point by only) . He 180'd right in front of me, slowing the car down much faster than I could have imagined . I was all over the brakes but it wasn't enough. I had to drive by him as he was rolling backwards, facing me. That incident gave me a reality check. I was one of the faster cars in the slowest group, I don't like spending that much time behind people. Just like on the street, you can be a great and safe driver but that doesn't mean you won't get bit. Has anyone heard of racing insurance? I think this might be one of those things-You only live once. Realize there is a risk and deal with it. It is simply to much fun to stop doing. Thanks again.

Greg

 

your instructor should have told you to leave more room between him and you... just in case the driver in front of you made a mistake, which he apparently did in a big way... Good job getting by that driver.. Next time, you could consider taking a run through the pits to let a non cooperative/non passing giver driver get way ahead of you and tell Control post run session of lack of passing courtesy... That driver probably was a novice, over stimulated, and unable to process your being on his tail... His instructor may have been so focused working with him, he missed your cues to let you pass.... Think of this... you always want to leave a bit of room to pass when the pass is given to you.... my 2 cents worth.... Insurance seems like a good idea, but I bet it will be cost prohibitive....

 

Thank you. Those are very important things to remember. Either run through the hot pit or more room would have prevented that. I just called my insurance carrier, finally. They do not cover DE's. Looks like I just need to be darn careful, leave more room and be more patient. Thank you for the posts

 

The answer, as has already been stated, is... it depends. I have insurance through Nationwide. I had a mechanical failure on my track car which resulted in serious damage to the car, but none to me. My regular auto insurance paid the claim. I was treated fairly on the settlement, and the increase in premiums wasn't even especially large. I still have the policy at Nationwide.

However... coverage varies from state to state, company to company and even policy to policy. Like you, I've heard that even if you're covered, the bad companies will drop you if they have to pay a claim. The good companies won't... until they have to pay a second claim There is a company advertising in Grassroots Motorsports magazine that offers coverage. If you're seriously concerned, you could check them out.

Though my track car was totaled, I used the settlement to repair it. Because it has a salvage title, I can't get collision coverage anymore, so it's something of a dead issue for me now. If I were taking my MINI to the track I would definitely check with my agent to find out if I was covered, and if not I might consider shopping around.

While on track, there are things you can do to manage the risks. With that in mind, in my opinion the risk is worth the reward, coverage or not. But there are times when things outside your control can leave you exposed so to speak. In the end you'll have to use you own judgement relative to the cost and availability of insurance coverage vs. the risk of damages. In neither case should you allow it to keep you from participating long-term. There's a risk associated with anything worthwhile.

I'd also like to challenge the premise that there is a greater risk at DE's than on the street, but that is a topic for another thread.

 

In theory there should be more risks at DE than the street... I think the biggest risk at a DE that is if a participitant drops fluid (radiator) especially... and then you spin spin spin spin.... completely out of your control but with potentially devasting results...

gotta say on my way to work yesterday on the mass pike to boston.. two cars collided at 5 mph fighting to get in a lane at the toll both and in the Prudential Tunnel 3 cars were crashed in tandem, the first stopping to avoid rear ending a car, the second car rear ending that car and the third car (a new bmw 330) rear ending the second car which moved the first car who was able to stop ... thats what insurance is for!

The volume of drivers in Boston, from a variety of states/countries, especially in September when 100,000 + college students show up from around the country make driving interesting...

 

...traveling at 80mph or so on the highway with other folks using cell phones, eating larger than finger food size portions, shaving, putting on lipstick, and yes, reading a novel or newspaper, while at the wheel all make my commute a sobering experience.

And, as an avid cyclist, while racing at 25-35mph within a group of say 100 other riders at a CAT5 level (beginner) is waaaay different from the same environment in CAT3. The level of control, awarness and coutesy are in a different league. So, although the speeds are higher in the advanced DE classes, so is the skill level. Some folks never make it to the advanced levels because the speed scares them - they are weeded out in effect.

I think you are safer off the street, and, safer yet in the advanced levels, personally. My advise, keep going.

 

Accidents will happen, I have participated in 27 track day events so far this year and have yet to see my first car to car contact on the track. Have there been crashes at the track, the answer is yes there have been a few crashes or off track excursions at the events that I have participated in, some were due to mechanical failure and a few to plain driver error. I would still say that HPDE events are safer than driving on the street, and yes the more advance groups have less incidents than the novice groups, at the same time most novice group incidents are usually a spin in the grass, have not seen too many tire wall incidents.

The track is still a dangerous place due to unskilled drivers who only reason to be at the track is to see how fast they can go rather that learn how to drive safely and under control, thankfully this danger is mostly to them self and their car, as an HPDE certified instructor my first responsibility is to be safe and to keep my student in control, if I get a student that will not listen and insists on being out of control, I will have him or her pull into the pit and thats it I won't be back in that car period, the group running the event will have to get some other instructor to ride with that person and I can assure that they will be given a very strong talking to before they are allowed back on the track

 

American Collectors Insurance offers track day insurance, but read the fine print. (only certain cars, deductible is 30% of car's value, etc)

 

I'm active with my local PCA chapter and when I am not able to drive, I'm helping run our DE events. We are always focused first on safety. If we see someone driving irresponsibly, or not paying attention to their mirrors and traffic is backing up - we give that individual a black flag and they have to come into the pits and have a talk. If it is a student w/instructor, the instructor also gets a gentle reminder to keep an eye on the mirrors.

If you find yourself faster than the others in your run group, there is no shame to pull into the hot pits for a second and ask for a little more space. If nothing else, it gives you a chance to take a breather

I've only one time witnessed an instructor refusing to ride with a student. This guy had his brand new sports car with his brand new towing rig and he wanted to come out and go fast. Didn't want to listen to anyone. Upset the instructors and displayed an attitude that nobody wanted to deal with, so he was "politely" asked to pack up and go home.

Is DE more dangerous than your morning commute? I would say NO emphatically. At DE, you don't have to worry about the person who just spilled their Starbucks in their lap while talkin on the phone and trying to send email. Is it totally safe? No, it isn't -- but as others have said, it is way too much fun

 

Dangerous is an interesting term. Danger for who? You or your car? I once did a rough calculation about the odds of getting killed at a PCA DE event. By my calculations, the odds where right around the national average of highway deaths per mile. The kicker was that the cause of death was never ascertained in the cases I know of (two total) and in each case there was always a question and some evidence to suggest that the driver had a health issue prior to the actual crash. If that were true and we eliminate them from the stats then there have been no straight up crash deaths in PCA DE as far as I know. Not scientific, but comforting , at least.

As to your car. I'd say its more dangerous. I suspect if it were possible to do the same sort of calculation on how many fenders have died, it would be far higher than the equivalent street miles, although that can seem to depend heavily on the track you go to.

As has been stated earlier car to car contact is extremely rare. I've never seen it happen at a DE. Beyond being aware of the people your on track with (particularly the ones who over brake right in front of you ) one key to avoiding incidents on the track, IMO, is self awareness. Its very easy to become overconfident, think you're better than you really are and drive over your head. If there's a crash 99 times out of 100, it was a mistake or more likely a series of mistakes made by the driver. In that, my experience differs from dkstone's. The higher the run group, the more likely there can be an incident (with the possible exception of the instructor group, although I have seen instructor crashes too!). I recall my first trip to LRP there were numerous spins and three crashes in the Black Run group (most advanced non-instructor drivers) and the weather was perfect.

Typical scenario, which is a classic in upper run groups:

Mistake #1: Driver decides he's being passed too much. Needs to push a little harder. Fails to plan about how. Doesn't consider the scenarios of what can go wrong, how to recognize this early enough to do something about it, how to effect an escape if something goes wrong or even if a particular corner is important enough to actually try to be faster in.
Mistake #2: Fails to get an instructor to help him out!
Mistake #3: So tries to drive into difficult corner too fast.
Mistake #4: Excess speed causes mistake in judgement resulting in an earlier line
Mistake #5: Fails to recognize he came in early until post apex track out when its too late to do much about it
Mistake #6: Tries to force a new line, spins... etc.
Mistake #7: -or- Doesn't force it, Puts two wheels off but tries to force it back on track too fast, hooks a wheel, spins... etc.

All that BS is by way of saying that the most important safety device you possess rests on your shoulders and between your ears. If you think, avail youself of instruction continuously after you're signed off and take your equipment and being on-track seriously, you'll be fine. If you become complascent or you over estimate your talent level, you indeed could have a very bad day. But its really totally up to you.

 

rjmann,

You're so totally right in everything you said. Makes me wonder how you could have spent so much time in Porsche's.

I'm completely kidding. Some of the best drivers I know favor Porsches.

 

Thinking Hmmmm... I suppose its that driving a 911 is just like driving a MINI, only in reverse. Oh and a lot faster . Gotta go find that video to post of me lapping my friend's MCS, can't take no more of this "hey I passed a Porsche" stuff 'round here. Hrumph... I feel that red mist coming on...

 

I hear ya. Some of the best fun I've had at the track has been playing with Porsche's. They are amazing machines. When I can get by 'em, I know I've accomplished something. When they pass me, so what... I'm driving a twenty year old BMW 535. For me a total victory for the weekend is when I can get a 911 driver to ask me what I've "done to that thing".

At my level, and most of the others round here, the driver makes more difference than the car. That's the primary reason for many of the "hey I passed a ------" stories we hear.

Glad to hear you love your Porsche's. And I'm glad you appreciate your MINI as well. In my experience, a majority of the gear heads out there find something to like about MINI's even when we still have loyalties and affection for other marques.

Merry Christmas.

 

Bwhahahahaha.... thats the Dazed and Confused team motto. "If you pass me, its the car. If I pass you, it's the driver!"
I was just funnin' To be honest, at DE, I take great delight in taking on GT-3s and Turbos in my 35 year old car. ABS? PSM? Power steering?!? Fooey! I have a few pictures of them stamped on the side of my car too! Fully understand and appreciate the enjoyment of getting around someone in functionally superior machinery. Last time I checked my mailbox, there still weren't any offers to drive for Ferrari next year, let alone Turner. I'm no different, the biggest obstacle for me to overcome in getting faster, is the guy behind the wheel.
Actually, believe it or not, my strongest loyalty is to Lotus. My father had the second Lotus Elan in the country back in '62. But thats more of a religious thing, in practise I'm a 911 guy. The thing about 911s is they're really elegant in their simplicity and they just don't break, which is a great thing for the track. And as a plus, there is no more joyous feeling than loading up that right rear, squeezing hard to the floor, getting the left front off the ground and just digging for all your worth.

That said, there is something so primordial to me about trying to pilot any vehicle. Those of us that get hooked on that are bound together in inexplicable ways, regardless of what we drive.
And to you and yours and the whole NAM community!