After spending 5 years doing the autox thing and dreaming about how cool it would be to drive my Mini Cooper on the track, I finally pulled the trigger on a 3-Day Driver School. I am a complete newb for HPDE, but hope to be "beginner" after the 3 days of track time.

Unfortunately, my setup is rather autox specific and I am not sure if it is ideally suited for HPDE - especially when it comes to the alignment and wheels/tires.

My setup right now:
03 Mini Cooper (not S)
Helix camber plates and rear control arms
Helix stud conversion
60,000 miles on odometer

Alignment:
F Camber -2.3 ...... R Camber -1.1
F Toe 1/8" out ...... R Toe 1/16" in

Wheels:
15x7 Rota Slipstreams with V710s
15x5.5 OEM Holies -- no tires yet
15x5.5 OEM Holies -- snow tires

My biggest question is, does the alignment above work for HPDE? I want to make sure that the car isn't too willing to kick its tail out and oversteer. I would rather be focused on learning the basics of performance driving than fighting the car and holding back cause I am afraid I might lose control. I use a stock rear sway bar and with the alignment above, the car is pretty neutral at the autox, but I haven't had a chance to test the handling bias of the car at higher speeds. Any input on this would be very helpful. I am thinking about playing it safe and dialing up more negative camber in the back, maybe up to -1.8 deg.

The other question is, wheels/tires. I have the V710s on wide-ish wheels, but I don't see the point in using those tires for my first ever HPDE. Well, I see the point (fun), but its overkill at this point and expensive.

Therefore, I am trying to decide what tires to put on the free 15x5.5 Holies. My short list is the usual low-buck suspects from the SCCA street tires classes: RT-615s, Hankooks or Dunlop Direzza Z1. I like the Dunlops because the 195/55/15 size is pretty unique in that it has close to stock diameter (this will be daily summer tires) and won't be as pinched onto the narrow rims as the 205/50 falkens would be. Looks like they have great wet traction as well, base on Tire Rack's test. The Hankooks come in a 195/50/15, but that is a bit low diameter for daily cruising.

But regardless of the model and size I pick, in the high performance category, I am pinching the tire on a pretty narrow rim. Is this a no-no? I understand I give up some performance and increase outside shoulder wear (proved it to myself multiple times on autox tires) but is it going to be so pronounced on the track that I shouldn't even consider it?

Wow... that was a lot of typing! Thanks in advance for the help!

P.S. The brake pads and fluid will be upgraded to high temp stuff, prior to track day. Already have CGLock.

 

welcome to the dark side! there is no combo that works for everyone, but if you are comfortable in an auto-x setting, your set-up isn't out of range for a track day. i run more camber and less toe. if you can feel your car, i would run the V710's. some auto-x courses are fast and some tracks are relatively slow. speed differential is important. i'd say, run what you have and take it slowly. don't try to get your car to its limit in the first session. track sessions typically require a more smooth input vs. auto-x. violent inputs don't work well with higher speeds. again, SMOOTH. don't over analy e. just go out and have fun while slowly learing to go faster. it will take more than one weekend to approach the limits of your car.

greg

 

I'd cut down the toe and make it 1/16 out in front and 0 in the rear. Your speeds are much higher on the track and your auto-x setup will be too twitchy.
Try and get the camber to 2.5 front and 1.8 rear. Again your auto-x setup is good for low speed rotation, but not so for high speed turns.
Tire pressure plays a LOT in track tuning as I'm sure it does in auto-x. Remember though that you tires heat up way more and pressure will rise, so check the pressure RIGHT after the first run. Right then bring it down to where you want it. This all depends on the tires and the car.
Have fun, be safe.

 

Check with the DE organizers to see if they have any tire rules. Locally one cannot run a tire with less then a 200 treadwear rating until in a more advance group.

 

On the tires. Yes, pinching is bad for the track. It takes a long time to tune the tire when it's pinched. Try not to do this. A wider tire will do no good if it's pinched.
Really look into the Toyo RA1s or the new R888. Running a street tire on the track is such a waste of money as they will just suck after three track days. They just get too hot. The Toyos are an R compound but still a very forgiving and predictable tire. It will last a ton more. Most likely right down to the core. I'd get shaved RA1s and would leave the new R888 full tread. In fact, just get the r888 if it comes in your size.

 

Yea, good point. I think they need to re-think these rules with the new tires out today.

 

Agree, R888's Just don't forget to heat cycle and watch your pressures.

 

The purpose of the tire/tread wear rule is to protect the in-car instructor from students with more money than talent or brains. We had students showing up for their first ever track experience with 400hp and Hoosiers. Scary stuff from the right seat. There is also a waiver to the rule if the tire in question is OEM.

 

Yes, I understand this, but the Toyos are not hoosiers, nor do they give a mini 400hp. I think it's ridiculous to ask someone to burn up a set of street tires which in fact will become even more unpredictable, on the track as well as on the street, within so many heat cycles.

 

Thanks for all the responses guys! I will take your advice on the camber settings. I will run around -2.3 camber up front (works well for autox and should be ok on track) 1/16" toe out. That way, I can just have the rear aligned shortly before the event and move from the autox friendly -1.1 to around 1.8.

Ah the tires. I knew this was going to start yet another of very many to "r-comp or not" discussion. I agree with you onasled regarding the Toyos not making the mini into a dangerous machine. In fact, on the autox courses anyway, the toyos are considered barely faster than the ultra sticky street tires used in the ST classes, namely the Yokos and the Bridgestone R01R.

Before throwing money at the V710s, I ran two autox seasons on a set of RA-1s. They were very predictable, had reasonaly smooth breakaway, especially in understeer scenarios, and lasted forever. 20 events, 4 autox schools and they still have tread left (although badly scalloped outside edge). In my experience, the 100 treadwear RA-1s are more durable and most importantly maintained their grip and properties much better than the 200 treadwear Azenis did.

That said, the wheel width is still a limitation... I don't want to buy another set of wheels - so assuming 15x5.5 holey wheels, would the 205/50 RA-1s deal with the pinch factor better than the 195/55 Dunlop Z1s?

I have done some reading about the Z1s, they are 'extreme performance' designed for autox and track abuse. A number of people with some time on the track have noted that they are amazing at dealing with the heat buildup on the track. I keep reading "the hotter they get, the more they grip". So maybe, the compound is durable enough to not be shot after 3 track days?

 

Sorry, didn't mean to make this look like a MINI only rule. The DE's in question are open to any car, not only MINIs. I also noticed that Gnat must have typo'ed. The rule is no tires under 100 tread wear, not 200, so RA1s and NT01s, R888 etc would be allowed.
This is directly from the rules:
"Guideline is if it has less than a tread wear rating of 100 it is prohibited for Green and Blue non solo drivers. Tread wear rating is located on the side of tire or manufacture specs. for that tire."

 

Where is this rule anyhow?

 

The Drivers Edge http://www.thedriversedge.net A commercial business that holds DE's once a month or so at tracks in North and Central Texas. The 'rule' is a link off the main page.

 

OK, that's a good point point to make then. It is club by club, and chapter by chapter when HPDE rules come into play.
This would make the point that one just needs to check with the host of each event on the rules.
But, it's good that they allow the Toyo R compounds. Kinda the point I was trying to make originally.
Thanks for the clarification.

 

Even though you have lots of autocross experience, I wouldn't worry about which tires for your first few HPDEs. Your cheap street tires are fine. And you will learn a lot more and more quickly sliding around on those for a while.

By the way, the NEQ (North East Audi Quattro) Club has a similar rule for newbies -- no R-comps -- street tires only for the first few days you run with them.

 

Aaaaahhh, .... what'da you know? Haaaa.. You've only been HPDEing for what, 6 years?
Hey David, ... we'll see ya at Cabin Feaver? I'm there.

 

Thanks for the help guys. I think I am going for the Dunlop Z1s. They are very sticky for a street tire and seem to deal with track heat well. With limited street use, they should get me through a decent number of HPDE track days. After than, we'll see how serious I am about it.

I just hope that the 195/55/15 won't be too pinched on the 5.5" holeys. Some people report that they run pretty wide for their size. Wider than the Azenis. I didn't like how the 205/50 azenis pinched onto the holeys all that much. I'll try to post some pictures once mounted.

I know some people recommend just running regular crappy street tires on the track, but I am not sure I like the idea. My experience is limited to the autox, but I have absolutely shredded street tires in no time - in particular the Falken Ziex 512. Even in the lightest possible Mini, 50 psi and -2.3 degrees of camber, I can take a new street tire with a soft sidewall, like the Ziex, and make the outside third of the tread basically usless in about thirty or so 45 second runs. I know the track is somewhat different with less "chucking" of the car side to side but still, I will feel more comfortable running a tire that is built to take some track/autox abuse.