Just wanted to give you a quick update. After discussing this with Dustin at AutoXCooper, I ordered Carbotech XP12/10 for front/rear. This was based on my run group and general use of the car. These pads, although noisy and dusty should work well at the track and still work on the street.

I did the install today and also fitted new OE rotors that I will keep using with these pads. Once my track season is over, I'll revert back to my old rotors and street pads.

I performed the bedding routine as recommended by Carbotech. The car is currently cooling down in the garage. For now, all I can say is 'amazing' ! The brakes are so strong, that it sounded like the ABS had trouble preventing the wheels from locking up They didn't of course but lets just say that the computer was busy.

The real test will be at the Glen at the end of the month. Hopefully, these pads will be able to handle the heat and be fade free for the school duration. Also, I'll perform another bleed of the system before heading to the track, just to be shure.

 

I have been running carbo XP10 and XP8 for most of this season. Just e-mailed Dustin to purchase the XP12s. Car feels much better.

Thanks for the tips on the JCW brake kit install on the MCS bumper. Just completed mine last week before spending a day at LRP.

I have also registered for GVC at WGI so I will get to see you there. What group are you running?

 

Great ! How did the install go ? I'm looking forward to see the end result.

I've asked for B group. I was in the A group at Calabogie in July but am more comfortable in B at the Glen for now. I'll see how things goes, if I'm caught in traffic too much, I'll ask my instructor to move me up.

Well I guess I'll see you at the Glen in a few weeks.

 

The install was quite PITA since I had to dremel out every slot instead of one large one. The fit is not quite right yet, but I may wait for winter to play around with it more since it works now.

I am not sure what the groups are since it is the first time I run with them. I think I may be in Group B as well.

See you there. I drive a 2008 white MCS that looks plain jane.

 

Sounds good. As you see in the picture, mine is pure silver w/black roof. I'll be with my friend from Pittsburgh that drives a 135i.

 

Great. See you there.

What group is your friend running in?

 

I believe he asked for B also.

 

i've read this thread since its inception. i finally have to chime in.....

brake pads, rotors and calipers do not stop/slow the car. the tires slow/stop the car. i do not run carbotech pads, but this applies to all brands. the following quote is from the carbotech site. "XP12™ is recommended only for expert/very advanced drivers. XP12™ is found to be most affective on race cars weighing 2,400lbs or more using R-Compound tires".

from the OP's sig, i assume that he/she is not running R-comps. i will not guess as to his/her experience level. with the 12/10 combo, you may not be reaching the optimal temp for these pads. i suggest buying some rotor temp paint and finding out how hot you get your rotors. i tried, unsuccessfully, to find a Cf vs. temp plot for the carbotech pads. if i am wrong, just slap me. i can take it.

here is a plot for willwood pads...



i post just as a warning. just because the 10/8 combo is good, doesn't mean that the 12/10 combo is better. the only MINI that i know in my area that runs 12/10 is a very accomplished father/son team in a competive SSM MINI.

rant over.

 

I understand what you are saying. It is like sway bars where many say bigger is better. But who is to say what is right without a little experimentation.

I have to diagree with you about what stops a car. I do believe that the braking system (rotors and brake pads) is connected to the rims and tires so they are part of stopping the car. It is a balance of the tires and braking system along with the track, car equipment and driving behavior that determines what is needed so it is not easy to generalize. The weakest part of the system can create a failure. I can be a little heavy on the brakes. Based on my driving experience and style along with my equipment level, and consulting a few experienced racers/autoxcooper and know what I am moving to in terms of tires, I decided to try XP12s for the front. All we try to do here is to experiment and learn. If it is not right for us, we can change.

Not sure of your main point. Are you saying we should stay with XP10/XP8 because you think that that most people are not experienced enough for XP12/XP10? I am not sure I know what my right combo is. I cannot comment on theneeds and ability of others. I feel fine with the combo XP10/XP8 but want to try something different. I think it is more dangerous to go with too low of a heat range and glaze the pads and lose stopping ability. Of course, it is best to get it right whatever that means.

BTW, lots of people in the NE track circuit do run the XP12/XP10 combo. Maybe they don'y need it, I do not know. And I want compound H from your chart because it is most consistent over the entire heat range which is most important to me.

 

Airflow, however, is another major factor driving pad temps.

While the CT XP10/8 combo *should* be good enough based on car weight and tires, I cooked a set of XP 10 front pads on my cabrio in the intermediate group on street tires. Technique (or lack thereof) had MUCH to do with this, but poor airflow probably did also. XP12's wouldn't have stopped the car any better (I was already braking at the limit of my street tires) but they would have held up to the temps better, probably...

 

Bean is right about temps. I have found that many guys are running faster and deeper into corners and over driving the brakes and cooking them.

Until the driver gets many more laps and becomes a better driver I'd rather him have more brake then tire for saftey and long term cost.

 

BlimeyCabrio,

You need brake ducts...

Which is some of the conversation in this thread.

 

I have to agree with slinger688: the pads/rotors/tires are all connected and all have a part to play in the process. In my case, I know that I have a pad problem because the calipers are in excellent shape, brake fluid is fresh and good quality, and certainly I know I wasn't braking hard enough at the last track session to trip the ABS system, i.e, at impending wheel lockup. In other words, I was not even near the traction limit of the tires.

Something is causing the pads I've used thus far to overheat and transfer that heat to the caliper and voilà, boiling brake fluid. Might be my driving style. Who knows. Pads are not working.

I've been also on the CT site and have read their recommendations, and was indeed concerned about the correct application. I would've possibly gone for a XP10/8 combo. But based on the specific questions Dustin from AutoXCooper asked me, he concluded that the 12/10 combo would work best. Time will tell, but so far so good. The combination seems to work very well, even during street driving.

BTW, another student I met at the track in July who made the recommendation to switch to CT has an R53 with street tires and he runs XP16 front and back. Works for him.

 

you may disagree w/ me if you wish, but F1 brakes will not make your car stop/slow beyond the limits of your TIRES. this assumes a minimun brake torque available to get ABS intervention (which 10's will accomplish on street and most r-comps). if you are not at/near ABS intervention, then you are not braking hard enough in a track environment. slowly applying brake pressure, while searching for your braking point, adds heat. then, when you finally decide to BRAKE, your pads are already overheated. the key is to brake hard initially, then modulate.

if you are running ATE or equivalent fluid, driving style is most likely the cause.

running any of the mentioned pads on the street is crazy. worse than stock performance (not hot enough), noise and increased rotor wear are the first reasons that come to mind.....

my car is currently being transformed into a race car. based on conversations w/ almost everyone who has built a race MINI, i won't be adding brake ducts. an open wheel design w/ the right pads will keep temps in the correct range.

 

You are correct when it is written this way. Tires are the limiting factor, no doubt. But your first post can be interpreted in many different ways, perhaps you did that to provoke a response.

I think you may be correct about the XP10/XP8s as well. With this combo, I can get it to threshold with the Limo braking style. Let me drive the XP12s when I get them and can comment better on the differences after trying the two. I have been told by a couple of SCCA National/Regional champions that the initial bite is better on the XP12s. I am grateful to be able to save a few bucks on brakes etc.

I have not fully experienced the brake fade that people have talked about so I cannot comment on that.

Also cannot comment on a race Mini. I have never built one and have no interest to build one.

 

...so based on the above: I'm not braking properly, using the wrong pads, and am crazy to run these pads on the street...

I guess I should give up performance driving then...

 

i knew that there would be a response when i posted. i didn't state the truth in a certain way to elicit a response. just get some temp paint to determine your rotor temps, work on technique and have fun.

here is a link to the temp paint that i use. http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...action=product

 

don't take it personally. here is my evaluation.....you are forced into using the wrong pads because your driving technique needs work. you will boil the fluid w/ any pad if you don't change. it isn't the pad. yes, you are crazy to drive these pads on the street. when you switch to r-comps and have to take the wheels off anyway, it isn't much more difficult to swap out pads at the same time.

i'm not a hater and i don't sell brake pads. i'm just a MINI enthusiast, track-junkie trying to pass on what i have learned (often the hard way). if you don't like what i say, disregard me.

 

D**m, 1 oz of paint for $67 plus shipping. I will stick to my temp gun for now. Thanks for the link.

Hate to tell you but the way you wrote your first post goes against the laws of physics from Newton to Einstein and cannot happen. Tires cannot stop a car by itself without another force (brakes/friction) making it happen.

I do think your comments are interesting and thought provoking.

 

mlg2ca,

keep driving, keep having fun and keep learning. I welcome the chance to be on the track with you (in the same run group) and learn from each other. Perhaps some lead follow...

 

share the cost w/ several of your track-rat friends. it's not that expensive when you consider the total cost of a track weekend. IR temp guns cannot capture the max temp like the paint.

my degree is in physics! an infinite brake torque cannot overcome the coefficient of friction between the tires and the road surface. that is all that i was trying to say.

i'm glad that you find my comment interesting rather than confrontational. this was my intention from the beginning.

 

slinger688,

Roger that. That is exactly what I'm doing and having a whole pile of fun doing it. My last instructor (who was driving a Nissan GT-R by the way, but more on this when I meet you) did exactly that. She followed me for a couple of laps then I followed her for a lap. Then, I'm not sure what happened, but the car suddenly dissapeared !!!!

 

I always try to look at the message rather than the messenger. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not, but I try.

Thanks for the info.

 

I think I have seen her and her car around some track events. Older lady, 50 ish with dark hair, perhaps??? I do not know her.

Really looking forward to this.

 

You got it, that's her: Louisa Gembora from the Trillium chapter. Small world isn't it ? Some of these instructors are all over the place. I beleive she told me she was going to be at Mont-Tremblant this month. Funny thing though, she didn't have any issues with my braking technique...

Anyway, here is a little eye candy.