um, Pinnacle Sourveign or cheap type, which is it buddy?

 

Too cheap to buy a $140 buffer when the consensus is its better to buff the wax off by hand.

Too smart to buy the cheap wax since usually in life ... you get what you pay for

 

you can wrap my bonnets in your hands and make buzzing noises
pretending you have an orbital.

 

Give it up man ... I aint falling for that SCAM

 

Heather ... Agranger, Octane all the other detailing gurus ... old thread but since the winter is about over, I'm back to considering that dual-action PC.

Now the question is. Ive read about every web site tutorial I can find on using this buffer and all the different pads including the MF pads that go on top of the white pad or a pad meant to go under the MF.

But ... every tutorial says exactly what Heather says here.

In other words, for polish, I would use Klasse twins (including the glaze). OK, thats fine.

But to add carnuaba, they all say apply it with the PC, and hand buff off because the PC does a lousy job of polishing it or leave a lot of white stuff.

Then whats the point of using the PC? Just to apply the wax ... thats pretty easy to do by hand ... why invest $120 plus the cost of pads to just apply the wax? What am I missing here?

I can see maybe if its your business to detail but for personal use? ... Especially if its a liquid wax and its trivial. For something like pinnacle sourveign, a bit harder.

Zaino also does not recommend, on their website, using and buffer. Whats the deal there?

Also, do you use the buffer on the clearbra which is supposed to be waxed???

 

if you think applying wax by hand is an easy task, then it will
make your work even easier when you use an orbital.

most people think "buffer" is something to remove a product to polish.
random orbital (not just a buffer) is an applicator machine with
buffing capabilities. this is why i dont call it a buffer, but an "orbital"
sort for 'random orbital.'

yep, i used my orbital on the clearbra when applying wax.

 

But ... the "hard" work, IMHO, is buffing it off and if you can't use it for that ...

 

Glad that you're doing lots of reading, but I have to question exactly what you are reading?? Sounds like you either need to qualify what you read or maybe just get out there and try some hands on work.

Why use a PC??
Take a look at this picture. When was the last time you were able to get results like this in 15 minutes by hand???



This one took longer but still, it's the result of a buffer


In case you don't know what you are seeing--it's the scratched/swirled out paint that is quite common on everybody's care. I taped off one half, and worked on one side, then pulled off the tape so you can see the side by side results.

The PC allows you to fix defects in your paint, like scratches and swirls, as well as apply and remove wax. Some paste waxes might be too sticky to remove by PC, but for liquid waxes that dry to a haze that can be easily wiped off, doing it by PC ensures, that you don't unintentionally instill new scratches or swirls in your paint as you wipe the wax off. Some paints are scratch sensitive and will scratch this easily. My Jet Black paint scratches very easily.

Applying wax with a PC ensures a uniform evenly thin layer of wax over the entire car. Thus removal is much easier as well.

There are lots of benefits to using a PC, but if you're still trying to convince yourself, it's very possible that it's not the tool for you.

re: Zaino
If you work within a system--Meguiars, Prima, Zaino, etc...--everybody has their recommendations. Historically (until recently), Zaino products were not designed to remove swirls from your paint. A PC offered no value for this type of system.

re: Clearbra
You can safely polish over clearbar.

Richard

 

You obviously need more reading. This is false. Atleast it's false when talking about the REAL PC, aka Porter Cable polisher. I remove wax all the time using my PC.

And if removing is so hard, you're probably putting on too much to begin with--like I said in my other post, the PC will help you lay down a thin layer that's easier to wipe off.

 

OK, I understand it could be on too thick. Very possible.

I'm not concerned with heavy polishing out, heavy swirl marks, cars are brand new for now A simple polish once a year is enuff for now. Its the wax thing that is my issue.

here are references about not using the PC to buff the wax.

Well, just go back to earlier posts in this thread. Agranger and Heather say buff by hand. You disagreed. OK that fair. More references

How-To Use The Porter Cable 7424 6" Orbital Polisher

Work the wax in well (use a low speed), then use a clean buffing bonnet to buff out the final finish.

Note the picture and what he's using ... Pinnacle Sourveign which is what I have now and like.

PORTER CABLE 7424 CAR POLISHER USER'S GUIDE

Work the wax in well (use a low speed), then use a clean buffing bonnet to buff out the final finish.

Actually the same article but from Sonus and shows using PS21 wax vice Sourveign.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss][SIZE=3]Detailer's Dream: Porter Cable Random Orbital Buffer[/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=2]"as a general rule of thumb, I only use the Porter Cable ROB to apply products - I always buff the residue by hand, simply because the terry-style bonnets that are available for the Porter Cable ROB aren't very efficient at removing residue."
[/SIZE]
Basically, I keep reading the same thing over and over again, that is, don't use the PC for buffing out the wax

Now you did contradict to the others earlier in this thread. So ... what am I missing???
[SIZE=2]
[/SIZE][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss][SIZE=3]

[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

Like I've said before, you need to "qualify" what you are reading. The article that you quote from Autopia & BetterCarCare are from David Bynon. He is NOT a detailer though many of his followers will say otherwise--he's out there to sell his products--Sonus, SMART, etc... Does he know his stuff? Sure, but is he detailing day in and day out? How much hands on experience does he have in polishing out paint other than for his own cars???

I like to remove wax by hand because it feels good. But sometimes on some paints that scratch easily, removing it with the PC is the only way. Removing wax isn't just about removing the haze. You want to remove the haze but leave as much wax on as possible. A terry cloth towel will do a much better job of leaving more wax on the paint than a mf towel will.

Which is better? It all depends. If your only concern is in removing wax, then don't bother with a PC. It's not the tool for you.

Richard

 

Fair answer. and want I wanted to hear! (one way or the other)

Thanks Richard!

As to the references, your in the business, not me so I had to go dig out articles ...

 

not hard to remove wax. you're using too much wax probably... it's
how we all learn to be "lazy" to use less product and more machinery
to get even better results within a shorter time.

lazy is good. efficiency is good. better results in shorter amt of time
is very good.

 

Then write a check to be most lazy and efficent!

 

planes better be not flying around in circles above me while
you're posting, ords!!! lol

 

I agree with most of what's already been said but I'll add a few comments...

Yes, for most, the PC is a correction tool when paired with abrasive polishes, but can also increase the effectiveness of non-abrasives like Klasse AIO and can aid in the application of synthetics.

Klasse AIO contains some very nice cleansers. When used with the PC and, say, the orange pad (or even the white pad), you will get much more out of the cleansers. The PC helps "beef up" the AIO, so to speak.

Also, if you use any of the synthetic waxes, most require a thin coat for best results (bonding, durability and ease of removal). The PC can add a thin and even layer of wax much more easily and effectively than you can by hand. Natural fatique and just being human usually result in an uneven wax layer. This isn't the end of the world... it just usually means that you'll go through a more product and may have a slightly more difficult buffing stage.

You're right though- if you find waxing an easy process anyway and that's all you're going to do, then the PC may be overkill for you. It is quite an investment, especially when you add pads and a backing plate. Just keep in mind that products like AIO and other cleansers/cleaner-waxes/etc, as well as synthetic waxes in general, perform better when worked in/applied with the PC than without.

Just some thoughts to ponder!

-Heather

 

Re: Wax removal/buffing by hand vs. the PC
As you quoted me from a previous post, I really think wax removal is significantly easier to do with a high quality MF cloth than it is with the PC. Many others I know agree. However, there are also many people who love and swear by the MF bonnets for wax removal with the PC. It's simply one of those topics (like many really!) where it comes down to personal preference. I can tell you what most prefer from my experience and statistically speaking you're likely to agree; however, you may find you like the complete opposite than the majority.

Here's an idea... is there someone nearby or in your local club with a PC? Try their PC! That way you can more accurately assess if you'd like to use it for what you're doing.

-Heather

 

Heather and Octane ... new question. See I'm trying to justify the cost with the better half

What about this buffer? Cycle with dual heads?

http://autogeek.net/cyclo-polishers.html

More money but is it any better than the PC?

 

Yes and no.

It is more versitle than the PC in that the dual heads can accommodate various brushes and other accessories. So, you can use it for tasks beyond traditional polishing/waxing (like carpet cleaning, aluminum polishing, tile/grout cleaning, plexiglass repair, chrome polishing, etc). (note that technically you can attach these same attachments to the single head of the PC but you don't have the dual-head advantage)

Both the Cyclo and the PC use the same random-orbital, dual-action movement. So they are equally safe to use. Both have plenty of torque to effectively move around an abrasive polish and allow its diminishing abrasives to diminish properly.

The Cyclo does have a little more torque than the PC, so technically it is a little more effective at getting the job done. However, we've found that in most cases you don't need this additional edge anyway! There have been only a few instances when we've grabbed the Cyclo after pushing the PC (and the most abrasive chemical and most aggressive pad) to its limit. The Cyclo can take polishing just a bit further than the PC.

The Cyclo does not have a variable speed. The PC does. That said, we haven't found too many situations in which we were using the Cyclo and wished it had the variable speed.

The Cyclo is louder and vibrates considerably more than the PC. But, if you've never used the PC you probably wouldn't notice.

In summary, if you don't need the additional uses that the Cyclo offers, then you might as well spend less and get the PC. Either way though, you can't go wrong. Both are excellent, well-built, safe, and effective machines.

Hey, go with whichever is easiest to "sell" to your other half!

-Heather

 

Although I have never used a Cyclo (we got one here in the shop I just haven't had time to play with), I know some users swear by it and other think it's too bulky compared to the PC. Our cycl (model 5) has only an On and Off switch. No variable speed unlike a PC.

Search on Meguiarsonline.com for the cyclo and you will find some responses there.

I still have to ask you, why would you spend more money if all you care about is removing wax??? How do you define "better"?

I could make a case and say my Makita 9227 rotary buffer is better than my PC, it also costs twice as much. But I can't use that tool for removing wax either, so it could be said that it must not be very useful since I can only use it for polishing.

Every buffer has it's intended purpose. I'd classify the cyclo as a special buffer that's not for everybody and not for every situation.

If you've never used a buffer before then get a PC before getting a Cyclo so you know what you will be missing. (just my 2 cents).

 

Thank you. Well explained answer!

Easiest to sell is easy ... cheapest on the wallet

Octane, here is my latest line of thinking. See if it makes any sense please

Zaino is out. Just not a zaino zeolot. I guess I'm old school

I can see the point about using the buffer for a polish, in my case AIO but when I run out, it might be something else. I might do that twice a year ... spring and fall.

Wax, I got some sourveign left. Too expensive to throw away, enuff for maybe 5 waxs. I can put it on with the buffer, but maybe now I can take it off with it too and final buff touchup with a mf towel.

Waxing is still going to happen once every 4 - 6 weeks. I also got some Malms liquid wax that should go one very easily and wants to be put on very thin. I was thinking of getting some Glasur but after reading not only is it done by hand, but you got to use their pre-cleaning solution by hand. Im trying to make life easier, not harder

I also see Malms got a now high concentrate amount of carnauba wax like the Glasur but as a normal paste ... $125. Thinking of that to replace the Sourveign when it runs out.

I'm pretty convinced I want to make my life easier, not harder. If the buffer can reduce the time significantly per coat, thats easier.

Now what about the pads. I assume they can be cleaned and not need an endless supply of them as disposable items.

So it comes down to "selling" the idea of investing the money in the buffer to the better half whose opinion, at the moment, is

"Is this going to be another power tool that just sits there after the "newness" where's out?"

OK, I buy a circular saw, I only use it when I need it to cut lumber ... so its sits there a lot ... I use the chain saw when I need it, but it sits there a lot.

So I got to convince her its actually makes life easier and will be used. If I go back to hand buffing ... bad move on my part.

So what ya think. Will be this a thing that once you have it, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.

Yes, I do apply wax about every 6 weeks. Last time I waxed my car was in November and its still beading like the day I finished but thats not a fair comparison because its been sitting under cover since Feb 1 and any inclement weather in Dec/Jan.

 

Although Glasur is easier to work with when applied by hand, you can technically apply it with the PC. You waste some product though because you have to carve out a chunk and smear it on the pad.

Also, you do not need to use their pre-cleaning solution (I assume you mean HD-Cleanse?), nor do you apply it by hand. Any paint cleanser applied before a carnauba (or any wax for that matter) will improve your wax-paint bond. HD-Cleanse, while a good paint cleanser and a good product, is not specifically required for Glasur to work well. Any pre-wax/paint cleanser will do essentially the same thing in prepping the paint for your wax.

In fact, I would highly recommend using HD-Cleanse with the PC and a white pad. Just like with AIO, the PC will help muscle-up the cleansers in the HD-Cleanse. You can't go wrong using it with the PC.

Remember, Zymol likes to make everything sound exclusive and special. It's all just part of their marketing strategy. The rest of us think it's a little bizarre, but it does work for some customers so I guess they'll always do it that way! I have tons of experience with Zymol and can help you with the Zymol myths. Just ask and I'll give you the *real* scoop. Zymol makes good stuff but they are just a little unusual with their marketing tactics and so-called "rules" of application.

Yes, pads can be cleaned and usually used numerous times before they die. Their lifespan depends on how hard and often you work them, and to some degree, how aggressive your product is.

*Typically speaking, a set of Lake Country pads will last a few years for the average hobbyist user, give or take.*

It is important to wash the pads immediately after use when using any synthetic waxes (Prima Epic, Klasse, Zaino, etc) or any oil-based polishes. You can wash pads used with water-based polishes (ie, Prima Cut, Swirl & Finish) anytime with no problems. In most cases, washing them with warm water and liquid dish soap does the trick. In the case of stubborn wax buildup, you can spritz some rubbing alcohol (or vinegar, as MiniMaybee discovered) on them and then wash with the warm water/soap.

Absolutely! Honestly, this isn't just coming from me... someone who sells the PC. We actually have customers who drive over to our store just to tell us how thrilled they are to have bought the PC and how they really don't know why they waited so long to get one.

And yes, I think every man in this country has power tools they used once and that's it. I honestly don't know anyone who has only used the PC at few times during the "honeymoon phase" and then shelved it. Not only is it a very helpful, effective tool (most power tools are), but the need actually arises to use it regularly. The need for sawing 2x4s only comes around every so often for most people. If you're already waxing and doing other car care stuff on a regular basis, you will always reach for the PC.


Having said all that though, since your goals are different than some others around here (mostly just wax application and wax removal) and you started out wondering if it would be worth the $$, I still highly recommend borrowing someone else's or going to their house to watch them use theirs. That way you'll really have a better handle on what it is and what it isn't.

-Heather

 

Heather, Email sent from Chows4us

THANKS

 

damn...all this for a little $125 tool... sheesh chows!

 

Yeah but remember Ken, I aint Rich like you