Argh... I induced some light swirls...
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
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Here's an article on polishing and over-polishing: http://guidetodetailing.com/articles.php?articleId=57
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Always curious ...
Great article. Thanks.
This part makes for some scary reading:
"It should be noted that a proper paint finish (primer, color and clearcoat) is only 6-8 thousandths (6/1000) of an inch thick. If your car has a quality clearcoat, it will be about half of that total paint thickness. Removing 1-2 thousandths of and inch of clearcoat happens in a matter of seconds with an abrasive polish."
This part makes for some scary reading:
"It should be noted that a proper paint finish (primer, color and clearcoat) is only 6-8 thousandths (6/1000) of an inch thick. If your car has a quality clearcoat, it will be about half of that total paint thickness. Removing 1-2 thousandths of and inch of clearcoat happens in a matter of seconds with an abrasive polish."
Vendor & Moderator :: MINI Camera and Video & c3 club forum
iTrader: (6)
Actually I agree! But I assume you mean the paint booth where it's sprayed, and not where the painters have since wetsanded it and polished it--because there can be a lot of other issues besides swirls straight from the booth like airborne contaminants, and fisheyes that will make even a swirl free freshly painted car look bad! Not to mention uneven spraying of metallic flakes, lol, but yes I'm going OT here.
My JB/JB has swirls. I freely admit it. They are very light, but they exist. I'm ok with it. I've accepted long ago that it's always relative to other black finishes that look scoured!
Using the dual action orbital or with a rotary? The amount of clear coat removal with the orbital isn't measurable. With a rotary, you can easily take off 1 MIL with an aggressive pad and polish. Swirls don't appear in the same place on the car, so it's not like you're thinning the paint in the same are eveytime. And remember, whether you machine polish or hand polish, the result is the same--you're removing paint to improve the finish.
Depends. If the paint has been wetsanded to remove orange peel, it's probably half as thick as it originally was. If it's been polished to remove scratches it will be even thinner. The entire thickness of sealant, primer, basecoat, clearcoat is thinner than a sheet of paper, yet you will see swirls in your vinyl stripes. Ever seen the thickness of that? Yes, you could even polish those swirls out.
Ever tried to take a magnifying loupe to a swirl? You can't see it. It's different from a scratch.
Using my electronic thickness gauge which measures in MIL, it's not measurable the before and after using an orbital polisher to remove swirls.
The average clearcoat is not 3.5 mils. Most MINI factory paints are about 5mils. This is primer, basecoat, clearcoat--though the newer MINI paints don't have primer--just lots of basecoat and clearcoat.
Sorry, I didn't see this post! I'm here now.
My JB/JB has swirls. I freely admit it. They are very light, but they exist. I'm ok with it. I've accepted long ago that it's always relative to other black finishes that look scoured!
Depends. If the paint has been wetsanded to remove orange peel, it's probably half as thick as it originally was. If it's been polished to remove scratches it will be even thinner. The entire thickness of sealant, primer, basecoat, clearcoat is thinner than a sheet of paper, yet you will see swirls in your vinyl stripes. Ever seen the thickness of that? Yes, you could even polish those swirls out.
Ever tried to take a magnifying loupe to a swirl? You can't see it. It's different from a scratch.
Hmmm ... really? If we assume some depth for the swirls, and removing them requires polishing (removal/leveling) of the clearcoat to at least the depth of the swirl, then it doesn't matter what polish you use, application method, etc., as long as it is polished smooth, right? If that is correct, then if one knows how deep a typical swirl is and how thick the coat is, then coat thickness divided by swirl depth = number times one can polish before going through the clearcoat.
So, if we take and average clear coat of 3.5 mils and average swirl depth of 5 microns, that gives just over 17 polishings. Since one is likely to polish a bit more than necessary to remove the swirl, let’s be conservative and say that
one can polish about a dozen times to remove swirls before one eats through the clear coat.
one can polish about a dozen times to remove swirls before one eats through the clear coat.
Sorry, I didn't see this post! I'm here now.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,054
Likes: 10
A quote from the Zaino website (Sonus Paintwork Cleanser has a bit of very, very fine abrasive in it... it is the most mild polish I've got in my arsenal of products):
Fine polishes serve to keep paint healthy by removing microscopic surface oxidation. They also round over the edges of swirl marks to reduce or eliminate their visibility. To prove this to be true, I polished a single panel on my car every day for 30 days using P21S Paintwork Cleanser. At the end of the month I could not detect a reduction in paint thickness using an electronic paint thickness meter.
Fine polishes serve to keep paint healthy by removing microscopic surface oxidation. They also round over the edges of swirl marks to reduce or eliminate their visibility. To prove this to be true, I polished a single panel on my car every day for 30 days using P21S Paintwork Cleanser. At the end of the month I could not detect a reduction in paint thickness using an electronic paint thickness meter.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,268
Likes: 4
From: Always curious ...
.
Fine polishes ... round over the edges of swirl marks to reduce or eliminate their visibility. To prove this to be true, I polished a single panel on my car every day for 30 days using P21S Paintwork Cleanser. At the end of the month I could not detect a reduction in paint thickness using an electronic paint thickness meter.
Fine polishes ... round over the edges of swirl marks to reduce or eliminate their visibility. To prove this to be true, I polished a single panel on my car every day for 30 days using P21S Paintwork Cleanser. At the end of the month I could not detect a reduction in paint thickness using an electronic paint thickness meter.
The P21S Paintworks Cleanser is meant as a prep to use before polishing. I use it before I clay to remove any remaining surface contaminates. It has no fillers in it. It would not be a good polish since the abrasives are so fine.
Vendor & Moderator :: MINI Camera and Video & c3 club forum
iTrader: (6)
Agreed. People should remember that when polishing the paint, you're always looking for the least aggressive method to get the job done, and this is done by doing a test spot to determine the pad/chemical choice to accomplish this.
I can tell by sight what chemical/pad/tool to use most of the time by experience and knowledge of the paint system. I'm certain that if I saw swirls in the paint, that I would not choose the P21S Paintworks Cleanser as my first choice, unless I saw that the paint was nearly flawless except for a few stray marrings or swirls. And in that case, I would likely choose Amigo for it's glaze and polishing properties.
Richard
I can tell by sight what chemical/pad/tool to use most of the time by experience and knowledge of the paint system. I'm certain that if I saw swirls in the paint, that I would not choose the P21S Paintworks Cleanser as my first choice, unless I saw that the paint was nearly flawless except for a few stray marrings or swirls. And in that case, I would likely choose Amigo for it's glaze and polishing properties.
Richard
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