Yesterday afternoon, when it first started, it made the roads icy in a hurry in Fairfax. We had to detour around an accident not more than 30 minutes after the snow started. I also saw many vehicles spun out, nosed over in ditches, stuck in ruts.... etc. Several which were SUV's! I experimented with the DSC some, I've read some common advice here on NAM before about turning off DSC when accelerating and then re-enabling it once under way. However, I've discovered something that seems to work quite well. Leave the DSC on and use it like a shift light. The 1st to 2nd shift will come quick and then each subsequent shift fairly quick after that, but doing it this way got me up to speed "close" to normally with minimal wheel spin or "Hand of God" (As Edge calls it) interference in throttle response. I grew up driving V8 powered rear-wheel drive cars and am used to getting "squirrely" in the snow, but having the DSC do some of the thinking for me is really nice!

 

I'm glad to see that Mini's are so much better in the snow than 4wd suv's. Maybe the next time we have blizzard conditions here and the radio stations are asking 4wd suv's to help get nurses and dr's to the hospitals, help deliver food to Wheel's on Meals shut in's, I'll call the stations and tell them they should be asking Mini owners to come to the rescue instead of 4wd suv's.

 

I lost count of the number of SUV's and large pickups that would fly by me only to wind-up sliding everywhere trying to stop for a traffic light! Again, begs the question, "What are they compensating for?"

 

I'm unhappy w/ Mont. county - it seems whoever had the job of "sanding" our neighborhood streets couldn't tell the difference between sand and rocks/black top chips. The streets in our subdivision are covered in debris, look like crap and the stones are bound to cause some chipping.

This isn't what I expect as service for the amount of $$ we pay in taxes.

 

MINIs do handle beautifully in bad weather. The downside is we have to share the road with other drivers who think their 4-wheel drive trucks will allow them to drive as if there's no snow or ice on the roads.

Yesterday was a case in point for my wife and I. We were heading home on I-66 and I was able to slow down in plenty of time after I saw an accident about a tenth of a mile ahead of us. We were in good shape - had at least 100 feet between our car and the car ahead of us and along comes a Toyota pickup truck behind us doing 50 mph, according to the driver, and WHAM. Happily we're fine but our MINI took one heck of a shot for us. Guess that's what insurance is all about Take a look at my gallery for a photo of Greeley after the accident.

 

HUH? Who is selling you that lineimpatient:impatient

What your seeing here is simple, as Edge likes to point out, 4WD does nothing for braking. Absolutely true.

But dont kid yourself for ONE minute. All those new SUVs have MORE electronic nannies that MINI has dreamt of yet including automatically shifting the drive to whatever wheel has traction and roll/turnover computers.

What you are seeing in the DC areas is that we get Blizzard once every 10 years (1996, 2003) ... so people do NOT know how to drive in the snow. Its got nothing to do with the capability of one vehicle over the other

Get about 6" of fluff on the road or hard packed snow with snow drifts through the snow .... like the storms all through the 1980s and the 4 x 4 will go by in a breeze while the MINI, especially lowered one, are not going anywhere without acting like a snow plow.

The fact is ... there is a tool for ever circumstance and using the tool correctly is the right answer.

BTW, there is Nothing wrong with all-seasons tires in 2" of snow. That is exactly what they are designed for. Under 50 degrees and light snow. Its when you got 10" of snow that snow tires really help in fluffy snow (and coming from Boston ... I got lots of experience in that). But at 10" of snow, MINIS go nowhere.

Not trying to sound harsh here but bashing SUVs because the Driver does not know how to drive is not factual about the capabilities of the vehicle.

 

Precisely - I never said that 4WD is useless, nor that the (usually) increased ground clearance of most SUVs is useless either.

My point primarily had to do with the VERY common overconfidence caused by many 4WD owners (not all of them SUVs, incidentally) that rarely actually drive in snow... and DC is ripe for that category, as the "affluence" is rampant here, without the snow experience.

However, irrespective of the driver confidence issue, I would be willing to bet that in 6 inches of snow or less, my MINI, with DSC & snow tires, will outperform any showroom stock SUV sold on the market that still has the factory all-season tires.

Yes, I think it's that good. And before you say "apples to oranges" on the tire issue, let us consider that the reality of the situation is the overwhelming majority of drivers in the DC area never buy anything but all-seasons... so the comparison is valid in the real world - last night, for example.

I actually passed a few 4WD SUVs on 495, while driving in the left lane... and they promptly changed lanes behind me - most likely thinking "hey, if he can drive in that lane (less plowed), I sure can. Needless to say, they fell further and further behind.

Granted... they are "OK", but even with just 2 inches, it's still a completely different experience with real snow tires. Snow tires are valuable in any snow, IMO.Actually, I recall reading posts in the past from our Canadian brethren about how they actually DO plow snow with their MINI, and they do OK... so I imagine that to SOME degree, "plowing" with a MINI will still work, but clearly there will be an eventual height limit.

 

We are in agreement on the braking thing and, more importantly, the inability of the local drivers to drive in the snow. No question there ... big problem

Yes, the reality is that most SUV drivers do not add snows ... especially in this area of the country.

I know you love your snow tires but in terms of hard dollars spent, IMO ... well more than opinion, they are just not worth the money since they are valuable maybe 5 days every 10 years. Even when it snows big ... main roads are down to asphalt the next day the sun comes out.

You really need to see the roads in the snow belt when the roads are hardpacked for weeks and you can tell immediatly which towns use salt and which towns are "green"

in 6 inches of snow or less, my MINI, with DSC & snow tires, will outperform any showroom stock SUV sold on the market that still has the factory all-season tires.

That would be about impossible to prove because what does outperform mean? Clearly SUVs are not the end all. In the 1996 and 2003 blizzards, our street was NEVER plowed. Two guys, one in a 4 x 4 pickup ... .another in a Jeep, tried to get up the hill and never went three feet simply because with 33" of snow, the snow was higher far higher than the axles. But once the snow was hardpacked after 2 days, they easily got out and no one else could.

I have no clear answers since I bought ours after the 2003 storm, and there simply has been no real snow to drive in other than maybe 10" last December? I forget ... and that was nothing. I'm so lazy, for 10" its not worth shoveling the driveway Just drive back and forth a few times, hard pack the snow and the SUN melts everything in 3 days anyway

BTW, coming home today I saw on RT32 westbound a "sporty" car, couldnt tell what it was, no snow on the road, just some ice and clear skid marks into the median where it hit some trees and totalled the car. No one was around so it must have been during the day. Accidents happen and driving 73 MPH on public roads in this weather, as someone else posted, IMO, is pretty irresponsible for everyone around you (Not you ... whoever posted about driving fast in the snow).

 

It was ok I was in a safe area (Dulles Toll Road) no curves and no car's around. My Avon's all-crap-season's didn't miss a beat.

P.S. Any nice policemen reading this I really wasn't going that fast.... honest !!!

 

You're forgetting a few other factors:

• Snow tires can handle even colder temperatures than all-seasons, so even on dry pavement, when it's really cold out they will fare better.
• If you want optimal performance all year around, you don't buy all-seasons. You buy summer tires for the summertime... and if that forces you to buy a second set for the winter, buying all-seasons at that point makes no sense at all. You might as well buy snow tires.
• If you pick the right kind of snow tire, they actually perform quite well on dry pavement, without excessive wear. That is why I chose my Pirelli SnowControls instead of Bridgestone Blizzaks, for example. 90% of the snow performance, with far better dry pavement performance than Blizzaks, and much less wear on those dry roads.

Oh, come on. You know what I meant. Let me simplify "outperform" for you. Accelerate better, brake better, turn better and in much better control. OK? Your story of the 33" inches of snow and the pickups and Jeeps is irrelevant as a counterpoint because I very clearly said "in 6 inches of snow or less". If you're going to make a counterpoint, at least stay on target.

The bottom line is, if you just want to save money, yes, all-seasons are the way to go, year around. However, if performance is important to you, then buying summer performance tires for Spring/Summer/Fall are clearly a better choice... and at that point, even here in DC where we get very little snow, snow tires are a far better choice than all-seasons for the winter. Just don't pick rubbery-soft ones that are terrible on dry pavement and wear out too fast! Yes, it means buying two sets, but you also will get more life out of each set (calendar-wise) because you won't be using them year-round. That helps somewhat to offset some cost, after you buy the first set.

Regarding your comment on the dangers of driving "fast" in the snow... I am very deliberate about how, when and where I drive in snow, taking into account many factors - most especially traffic, speed differentials with other cars, stopping distances, etc. With the right equipment (and proper snow tires on a MINI definitely qualify), you can safely drive in the snow faster than the average car or SUV with all-season tires. You just have to be careful how you do it. However, by "faster" I obviously don't mean "pretend there's no snow at all". I am simply comparing against less-equipped cars.

 

Your talking about the MINI. I was referring to why people with SUVs dont bother. Sure, if you want "performance" in a sporty car you get summer tires and all-season are lousy. No doubt about it. I was talking why SUV owners dont bother. There is simply no reason to do it in this part of the country (IMO). They dont care about the utmost performance in summer and the winters are simply not harsh enuff to justify the expense.

Then you have to compare equivalents. SUVs that have the equivalent "performance" capabilities as a MCS. While there are a fair amount of SUVs that will blow away a JCW in a straight line (like a Magnum Hemi (I think thats the one), there is a Jeep V8, or easily a Porsche Cayenne Turbo), the only one with probably equivalent braking capabilities is the Cayenne. Handling, no contest ... SUVs are not meant to handle

So I guess in 6" of snow your comment is true except for some aspects of a high end SUV because clearly the MCS is going to handle better and probably brake better.

Of course the counter argument is over 6", the ball game changes.

For MINI, I can agree. Not for SUVs, 6" of snow is a dusting (at least from where I come from). IF, in fact, we were in the snow belt, I would buy snows or off-road tires.

I wasnt referring to you there, I think I said someone else .... here is the quote

Still made it up to 73 mph on the snowy toll road... not a problem...

That has to be over the speed limit in the metro area and the police CAN give a reckless driving ticket (probably especially in VA) because the person is not driving the car for the conditions.

My bottom line is simple. Snow to me is nothing until I have to shovel it We have had many storms, small 4 - 8, 5- 10" that simply there is no need to shovel the driveway (except the walk which is a legal issue for some towns). I've driven much of my life where life goes on ... not here ... 4- 8 shuts everything down.

So I just dont think of 6" of anything more than a minor annoyance ... with a SUV. With any FWD car, not bad either. IN fact, I can't tell you the last time I had snows .... probably in college with a mustang RWD. Then Studded snows.

The strange thing about weather here is that the big storms are so far apart, people forget. Even the small storms are not frequent and cause lots of accidents.

Discussing "performance" in a snowstorm is probably an oxymoron since the conditions aren't worth it to me to take chances.

 

Of course not, I think we all understand that.Lots of power and big brakes mean nothing if you are in snow, in a heavy vehicle, and driving with all-season tires. My whole point in making the statement was that since I have taken it upon myself to use snows in the winter, I have "jumped ahead" of 99% of the other cars in the DC area, since few of them have done so. Even if they did add snows, it would likely take an effective 4WD vehicle (and ideally not too heavy) to outperform a MINI with DSC & snows in most cases.

You don't need to dismantle my statement. It was intended as a whole. This is the real situation out on the roads when it snows here, and I saw it yet again last night. That's why I made the statement, it's real world, here in DC. I have snows, 99% of them don't, my MINI is better off unless we get a huge blizzard.

(Porsche Cayenne? Blowing me off the line? PLEASE! We're talking snow performance. Sheesh. )Well thanks for finally confirming, in a longwinded and quiet way... that my statement was right. A lot of unnecessary arguments to get to that one statement.Performance in snow conditions is applicable, because it has an immediate and direct affect on safety. Particularly the ability to brake and turn. Less so the ability to accelerate. The word "performance" can apply to many things, and the context here was very clear.

 

I agree with that 100%. You are a leap ahead.

ROFL. I got to think my way through what I'm saying and sometimes think outloud, you should know that by now Sometimes its takes a 360 degree turn through the discussion.

Not so sure how much I buy into that. When your always or near the limit of friction, all the electronic nannies work just as well for all cars ... in fact many newer ones have more than just what the DSC does. So this has many variables as to how much soft snow vice packed down hard snow vice icy on top of snow vice freezing rain, etc. I dont think its a simple statement.

The ability to accelerate faster or brake quicker is all dependent upon the traction and I would bet dependent upon the road surface, this all changes drastically. Soft snow, untrodden with snow ... advantage MINI. Changing to much more slippery ... advantage to whoever got the better electronic nannies.

As technology continues to advance, it becomes more the car than anything else in these conditions. I've read lots of posts where people have trouble getting up or down slippery hills. But many SUVs today have electronic distribution of the drive power to individual wheels without you even knowing its happening (or locking the drivetrain) along with uphill and downhill assist where the electronics do all the work and not your foot on the gas. These advances just dont exist in a MCS.

I'm just saying here that the actual road conditions have tremendous variance and the more slippery it gets, thats why the technologies exist.

 

There comes a point where physics takes over and no electronics is going to help. I think people nowadays think electronics is going to get them out of a jam everytime. The best thing people could do is avoid a bad situation in the first place. I think the biggest problem people have is that they do not use gentle inputs in these conditions. Sunday I was able to read the road, look at the camber, slow up before the turn. Not only is it important to keep your distance to the car infront, you need to be thinking about the car behind you. Gentle inputs. I don't care if it's a SUV or a MINI. It's the nut behind the wheel that makes the difference. And tires of course make a huge difference.

 

Does anyone really believe that most common 4WD trucks and SUV's are designed to handle like a sportscar, brake like a 2500 lb sportscar, or accelerate like a 2500 lb sportscar in the first place? Hmmm... higher center of gravity, greater weight, higher profile and more complaint sidewall tires. There doesn't seem to be much to compare other than they both have 4 wheels, engine, etc; and people buy them both for transportation. Each built for somewhat different purposes.

 

All true statements, but let us not forget the other factor, and this goes in to the physics that 1996 328ti mentioned: Inertia. That extra 1,000 (or 2,000!) pounds of the SUV is going to be a LOT harder to stop and turn in slippery conditions (heck, ANY condition, but especially slippery) than the MINI.

THAT, my friends, is one of the large reasons why the MINI performs so well in snow compared to most other modern cars. The lower weight, the FWD, the balanced handling, and the DSC... combined with snow tires, it "dominates" the (< 6") snow, just like the MINI Canada website demonstrated last year in their excellent campaign. Hehe.

Apparently some of their owners do... especially the way they drive in the snow.

 

No different than the folks who think that since they can stop quickly, then there's no need to maintain space between vehicles. It's all controlled by the driver behind the wheel is the bottom line. Excessive speed for conditions is something that every driver, whether in a Mini or a 4wd should consider. If 4wd was a go-fast option, what's 4Lo for?

 

Agreed. Stopping distance is paramount.

 

Sorry your Mini was injured. Glad you and yours are ok. Some cars do go better in snow than others, I've owned over 40 different ones. None of them stop very good and I drive accordingly. I learned that with my first front wheel drive car, a SAAB 93. Was having fun in the snow, wanted to slow and turn going down hill and did an end around. Life lesson learned. Studded tires or chains are the answer.

 

My MINI is staying the garage on snowy days. I've in the past enjoyed driving in snow in a FWD with 4 REAL snow tires. They do quiet well. And with my Limited Slip I imagine the MINI would do well.

BUT, like you all say too many drivers driving way over their heads, and in vehicles with bald tires, etc. No matter how capable my vehicle I'm not protected from lunacy.

ON a more important subject, here's my excuse to show off again my OTHER MINI, which does indeed great in the snow. (That's one of last years snows)

 

Great Stripes!! Convertible too!

 

Sorry to hear about that. I've been rear ended as well, and it's not fun. Everyone out here is in such a damn rush sometimes.

I'm also beginning to think Edge and Chows need their own debate thread, so anytime someone posts a topic and they feel they need to debate it, they can just go hang out o'er yonder.

 

I love driving my car with snow on the ground. I scared my neighbor by doing a handbrake 180 in front of her house to get to my mailbox. These cars really do well with a bit of handbrake applied.

 

LOL, indeed.