Yes ABS makes the braking distances longer on snow & ice. What it does do is gives you the ability to steer while doing maximum braking.

I've seen cars get involved in accidents as described above. You have to steer out of trouble. PGT, Subaru used an overly sensitive ABS system on their WRX's. I believe there was a TSB about it.

IMO winter tires are very important to safe snow & ice driving. I use winter tires & in yesterdays storm I did not have the ABS activate once. Without those tires it sure would've been kicking. On ice the snow tires help, but they'll still slide some.

 

you've obviously never driven offroad, have you? a loose shale descent? try using your brakes and ABS and get back to me

 

Amen to this! With all the teenagers getting killed on DC metro area roads in the past month, and the majority of the cases involving "driver errror", wouldn't it make sense to pursue a solution that addresses the root cause? i.e. improve driver skill with better education and training. Placing restrictions on the number of passengers, implementing "curfews", raising the minimum age, and the like can only do so much. Every drivers ed program should include training on vehicle dynamics and the performance of car control exercises like you do at a BMW Club Driver's School, such as threshold braking, obstacle avoidance, etc. Students should also have seat time in a "skid car" to perform the same maneuvers under low traction conditions. During the first several years after obtaining a license, continuing training should be required at least once a year to perform these exercises over and over so that the proper response becomes second nature. The article in the Post on Sunday said local jurisdictions were benchmarking Georgia, which has some of the toughest restrictions on new drivers, and fewer fatalities as a result. How about benchmarking Germany or other European countries who have some of the most rigorous initial driver education programs?

 

I'm with you. I'm all for more driver training. For young & old.

It's downright scary watching some of the things people do.

 

I've said the same thing actually earlier. What's best for the majority of the population doesn't mean it's the best all the time for every situation

I learned winter driving west of Buffalo, right on Lake Erie. That area doesn't get as much inclement weather as DC, so don't listen to me.

 

Come on man.. that's not fair... you're changing the context of our own statements ... techniques for a controlled off-road decent are not the same as panic braking in traffic...
In regard to how much I've driven off road... well that's really irrelevant since suggested techniques are either good or not, regardless of the history of the speaker... but for what its worth, yea you could say I've been off roading ... on MX bikes, enduros, trials bikes, cars, jeeps, ATVs, trucks, 4X4, AWD, FWD, RWD, front engine, mid engine, rear engine, air cooled, four stroke, two stroke, open diffs, lockers, spools, etc...not to mention plenty of time at places like Budds Creek, Summit Point (both circuits) Hatfield & McCoy, Red Bud... I started competing on mini bikes when I was 10 years old... I've personally owned about 75 vehicles, I have about 35 years of peformance driving experience...
... but ...enough of my boastful, yet boring history....back to the point of this whole thread . ..during emergency braking on the street most people shoud just stomp on their ABS brakes and focus on steering... don't get mislead by other peoples tales' of how their own skills would allow them to do better... for anyone asking the types of questions that started this thread... stomp and steer is the technique...
Be safe everyone...

 

apparently, it didn't work for the OP now did it?

 

Sounds like it worked pretty good... she avoided the truck and continued on her way

 

I've (unintentionally) spun on the road too, I wouldn't call that 'pretty good', but that's just me

 

Sounds like a scary time! I really do get annoyed with people that slam on the brakes (or even stop) for people that are not actually in the process of crossing, or beginning to enter the street. In the my area (Annapolis), you do need to watch out, because people just walk out in front of you. They have the mentality that you will stop... stupid, stupid, stupid. But most of the time they actually look like they are going to step out into the road, much different than in your case...

I have to add that I don't feel as stable in the MINI as I did in my BMW, the BMW did go by Ice, however a much different situation...

What's the case with RWD vehicles that have 50/50 weight distribution?

-Chase

 

+1

 

PGT: No one ever said ABS was a magic wand that prevented all possible problems.. and I expect the techniques you've suggested would have increased the chances of a collision in this case.

Chase: 50/50 RWD is a sweet set up for performance driving, it really helps balance the car and spread the load between the tires that do the steering and most of the braking (front) and the tires the do the driving (rear). But if your RWD car is having trouble getting going in the snow, it may help to put a few 50 lbs bags of sand in the trunk to increase the ground pressure. (But if the snow is deep... deeper than your ground clearance, increased ground pressure can get you stuck .. in those cases you need a vehicle with more ground clearance, like a big truck... or a vehicle with extreme flotation... like snowmobile...

 

if you're in a skid...you let off the brakes to regain control. driving 101. ice and snow change things, but ABS won't fix that. yes, ABS is meant to prevent a skid, but again, ice and snow...

 

And sometimes it's just both feet in & say a little prayer.

 

or, let go of the wheel, cover up and enjoy the ride been there, done that.

 

I agree that Blizzaks are awesome snow tires, one of the best (non-studded) out there... but in the DC area, where we still get a lot of dry pavement in-between snows, I don't think they are the best choice, for two reasons:

1. Their dry weather performance is really bad... worse than most other snow tires out there.
2. Their very soft rubber wears out super-quick on dry pavement.

Those two reasons are why I chose Pirelli Winter 240 SnowSport for my winter tires. They are a fantastic compromise for DC-area winters. Awesome in the snow (not quite up to the Blizzaks but still way way ahead of all-seasons), and their dry weather performance and better resistance to wear make them ideal, IMO.

All-seasons really are a terrible year-round compromise. People who are serious about their cars and their driving performance really should have two sets. A 3-season set and a winter set. Once you swallow the cost of buying a second set of wheels, it is still quite cost effective as you won't be putting wear on either set year-round.Well, I still disagree. I think that the increased weight may be an advantage for creating motion in poor conditions, but all that weight is a huge disadvantage when it comes time to stop. When you hit those brakes, inertia is your worst enemy.

I like to think about it this way. Start with perfect conditions - dry pavement. On average, which vehicle is easier to stop? The 2,750 pound MINI or the 5,000+ pound SUV? How about making a turn, especially an emergency turn? Getting that big vehicle to change direction is a completely different feat.

Snow and ice often amplify these features. Less traction for everyone means greater stopping distances and lower maximum speeds on turns than normal, dry conditions. With the same type of tire (all-season vs all-season or snow/winter vs snow/winter), I'd rather still be in the MINI.

This of course assumes that other factors (like ground clearance) don't come into play... in the DC area, it's very rare that we get enough snow for ground clearance to be a serious issue... and if we do, you should be staying home anyway.

Regardless of vehicle weight though, the tires are still the most important factor. We can hopefully still agree on that much.

 

I still remember doing donuts and fish tails with Pop and the family in the '65 LeMans (2dr 4spd, 4BBL) after church in snowy parking lot He taught us more about safe driving even before we were driving.......

The answer to better driving teens begins with their parents, IMO, the reason I have had zero tickets, one accident when I was 16 that was not my fault (Oh but I learned so much from it though - luckily no damage to Pop's Citation ) is down to the fact that my Dad was the best ! He was always within 10 mph of the limit, always calm, always patient, always took the right line, always drove ahead, never ever drove aggresive in an effort to make someone "pay" As a child, not even close to being ready to drive, I think that these lessons really stuck. When it was time for my license, I was already programmed and he only needed to teach me how to operate the vehicle.

So many times I see aggresive idiots in their vehicles with kids doing dumb things......and then there was the kids that got killed on Rt198 on the driver's 17th (?) birthday......going over 100mph in the new GTO Mom and Dad bought for his birthday......yes, what a moment of genius . My brother and I had the family 73 Torino Wagon Pop sold the '65 a few weeks before my brother got his learner's permit, a move that I'm convinced saved my brother's life.

I think the best way to avoid an accident is to avoid the need to even engage the ABS, think and drive ahead

Safe Motoring and Happy Holidays to All !

Mike

 

Yup, hydrophilics wear out in a heartbeat in dry conditions. Just so others understand ( I know Edge knows) that's why they work of course. I, having bought a small car that costs 3x5 times what a Kia costs wouldn't complain about snow tires that used to last me only two seasons considering the impact they have on safety but we all have different budget ideas. I used them back when I HAD to go work no matter what. Now I don't so I run all seasons and stay home till things improve.

Amen!

 

Certainly we agree on tires, because everything starts.. and stops ... with traction.
In regard to weight... I certainly agree that it is the enemy of performace in good weather... but it is your friend in circumstances where it increases traction, like when you need more ground pressure to get to a hard surface under a soft slippery one. In snow, a light car with less inertia may still slide further than a heavier vehicle because the heaiver vehicle has more ground pressure and friction, which could be giving it more traction, and everything starts... and stops... with traction.

Alternatively, you could get more ground pressure by going to a narrower tire for bad weather ... which would increase ground pressure without adding the inertia problem of more weight ... again... we agree...tires..tires..tires.

This reminds me a great scene form a WWII movie. A deuce-and-a-half (truck) was stuck in the mud ... the soldiers argued over whether they should add weight or take weight out to get the truck unstuck... well it depends .. weight that causes the truck tires to dig might be the answer if there is a hard surface underneath the slop that the tires can reach before the chassis runs out of ground clearance... otherwise removing weight might be the answer... how deep is the mud / snow / whatever...before you reach a dry or hard surface underneath? How much ground pressure do you need to make that happen... will you run out of gound clearance ...it all depends...

I've got to get to one of the DC Club events... you all seem like a diverse and interesting group.

 

Winter tires ! Growing up in the North East I remember changing tires with dad every September. Remember even with ABS kicking in once you are on ice there is little one can do. I agree with PGT. With the distance stated if you let off the brakes and turned the wheel slowly the vehicle will turn. Rolling traction is needed for a sliding vehicle to turn. Wheels not turning constant ...NO TURN! Very similiar to HYDROPLANING!

 

Can we all agree on this?
For someone who is really going to spend the time, to routinely practice heavy braking and steering in all different weather and road conditions, if you get really good at recognizing which technique to apply in which conditions, you might well be able to outperform ABS in some circumstances.

For a typical driver, with an ABS vehicle, the odds are they will be best served by just remembering to "stomp on the brakes and keep steering" when a sudden stop is necessary.

Are those fair statements?

 

+1 on the snows!

I bought some dedicated snows for my R53 from PGT... 1 season old Hakkas...

WOW!

I was driving home and the snow was just starting to stick, I felt no traction loss at all... I pulled George into his garage spot and then SLID down the driveway to get the mail.

I was amazed at the tire's grip!

I have since taken George out to the school parking lot across the street to familiarize myself with the car's behavior in the slippery stuff... besides being fun and safe (aiming AWAY from the school) I learned a lot!

I have taken quite a few drivers control clinics and DE's... all very worth it!

 

Let me detail my accident with Pop's Citation.

I'm on Rt29 in Maryland, riding in the left lane to pass a box van as we approach the intersection at GreenCastle Rd (No light back in those days) I'm a good kid of 16 years old and obeying the 55 mph limit, the box van is going maybe 45-50. Unknown to me, because of the van's position, on GreenCastle is a car pulling out to cross over north bound 29 to go south.

As I come around the van, SURPRISE ! I've got a small green sedan in front of me. Being the young driver that I am and seeing my options are only to plow straight ahead, I nail the brakes and lock up, couldn't go right because the stoopid van is next to me, can't go left into the median and loose control for sure. Soooooo, with tires smoking I impact the green sedan in the left rear quarter and continue to a stop just past the intersection just off the road but not in the grass. He does a wonderful 360 and stops in the direction he started.

Being a young fiery teenager, I got out of the car and read him the riot act for pulling out on me ( I was for sure Pop was going to kill me as I had surely destroyed the front of his "baby") The sedan's quarter panel is toast, I check my front end.........holy sh*t, not a scratch, the only thing we can figure is I killed enough speed, my bumper compressed but returned to its position, and his quarter gave enough to result in no damage. Pop was livid until he saw there was no damage, then reality set in and I got a huge hug.

So, no one is hurt, and I am now a bit wiser. How you ask ?

1) Now I always consider my position on the road, can the driver next to me see me, how might the driver up ahead at the intersection view my car ? Can he/she see me ?

2) What does it look like he's gonna do ?

3) Should I let off the gas and be ready ?

4) Scan the entire intersection

5) Expect emergency vehicles too, even with the radio off they're tough to hear.

6) I use daytime running lights to be seen, in addition, when approaching a vehicle that is turning left in front of me, I'll give the car a little wiggle in an effort to catch their attention. Humans react to movement much better than a steady picture. Of course, expect that they will turn.

I've only engaged the ABS on Wensleydale once, and that was doing some hotdog driving on a twisty backroad, coming around a wonderful left sweeper into a somewhat blind right sweeper, I encountered three deer in the middle of the road - nowhere to go ! I had anticipated something might be there and had already had the foot heading for the brake. Hard on the brakes and Wensleydale did her job, the deer continued on their way.

Always think and drive ahead.......

Mike

 

Yes they wear a bit faster, but the above is a pretty large exaggeration.

I've had 2 sets of Blizzak WS50's. One on our Forester & one on our Audrey A4. I put these tires on at Thanksgiving & took them off the beginning of April. I got 4 years out of the ones on the Forester & 5 out of the ones on the A4. Our winters are not unlike the ones in DC. Dry, rain & then snow, then repeat. The handling is a bit squishy on dry pavement, but that was a compromise I gladly made for superior ice & snow traction. After we wore them out I switched to Nokian Hakka snow tires. The reason is once the Blizzak's are wear down past 50% or so you no longer have that oh so sweet multi-cell compound & boy do the suck then. The Hakka's rubber compound is the same through the entire tread of the tire.

Lots of good info in this thread. Maybe it should be stickied in the tire & wheel forum.